13 Jul
2015
13 Jul
'15
16:50
So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE
(Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day
Reasons I make this statement
1. zypper up honours vendor/repo choice
if I install packages from Packman or any other additional repo, I
only want to receive updates for those package from that repo. zypper
up does that
2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends
if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back
next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up
Or to put it another way - why I think zypper dup as the
default-day-to-day Tumbleweed update mechanism
1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice
oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad,
zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version
devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
1a. zypper dup with multiple additional repos turns your machine into
a Frankenstein monster.
Oh, your apache is now broken because it doesn't work with the
perl in devel:lang:python? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
2. zypper dup pulls through recommends
zypper dup is designed as a distribution upgrade mechanism, so,
it's meant to be loose and liberal with it's dependency solver to help
you with those large changes. Oh, you didn't want all those extra
recommends? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense, when you want a
zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I
strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane
safety features provided by zypper up.
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13 Jul
13 Jul
16:52
On Monday 2015-07-13 18:50, Richard Brown wrote:
2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends
if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back
next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up
They do come back if a package is to be updated which has
a Recommends, and/or if you install a package which has
Recommends. IIRC there is no different behavior of --(no-)recommends
between up and dup.
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16:54
On 13 July 2015 at 18:52, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh(a)inai.de> wrote:
They do come back if a package is to be updated which has
a Recommends, and/or if you install a package which has
Recommends. IIRC there is no different behavior of --(no-)recommends
between up and dup.
Okay, let me rephrase and retain my main point "I get less extra ****
that I explicitly didn't want, because zypper is more conservative
about what new packages it installs" ;)
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18:07
On Monday 2015-07-13 18:54, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 18:52, Jan Engelhardt
<jengelh(a)inai.de> wrote:
Feel free to open a bug report. I support making --no-recommends
the default, and only using --recommends during initial install.
The argument to have libzypp default to --recommends was so that
the initial install via yast2 is not totally useless.
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They do come back if a package is to be updated which has
a Recommends, and/or if you install a package which has
Recommends. IIRC there is no different behavior of --(no-)recommends
between up and dup.
Okay, let me rephrase and retain my main point "I get less extra ****
that I explicitly didn't want, because zypper is more conservative
about what new packages it installs" ;) 
17:23
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On 2015-07-13 18:50, Richard Brown wrote:
So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your
openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day
to day
But I have been reading, since years, several devs state that "zypper
dup" is the only supported update method for Factory and its direct
derivatives, like Tumbleweed. And they have not said otherwise yet.
Sure, zypper dup is not nice when you have to use it often. Which is
probably why they (they = zypper devs, in this case) are redesigning
and adding experimental options like
"OLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0".
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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17:36
I believe "zypper dup" is a method to update *to* Factory/TW, which
does make sense.
2015-07-13 20:23 GMT+03:00 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r(a)opensuse.org>rg>:
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On 2015-07-13 18:50, Richard Brown wrote:
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So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your
openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day
to day
But I have been reading, since years, several devs state that "zypper
dup" is the only supported update method for Factory and its direct
derivatives, like Tumbleweed. And they have not said otherwise yet.
Sure, zypper dup is not nice when you have to use it often. Which is
probably why they (they = zypper devs, in this case) are redesigning
and adding experimental options like
"OLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0".
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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18:06
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On 2015-07-13 19:36, Andrei Dziahel wrote:
I believe "zypper dup" is a method to update
*to* Factory/TW,
which does make sense.
Yes, true; but updating from factory 1536 to factory 1537 is
considered also a distribution upgrade, a system upgrade, so zypper
dup applies.
The reasoning is that on any factory snapshots there can be additions
and disappearances and downgrades, and "dup" is designed to apply
them. "zypper up" is not.
In fact, if you go back in the factory mail list to the epoch (2008?)
when zypper dup was designed, it was designed precisely for this
situation. As a method to update factory online for the people that
were using it. I was one of the people testing and reporting on it, so
I remember.
I don't have my full archive on this laptop, or I would provide
references.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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18:17
Richard Brown composed on 2015-07-13 18:50 (UTC+0200):
IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for
upgrading your openSUSE
(Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day
...
Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense,
when you want a
zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I
strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane
safety features provided by zypper up.
OTOH, maybe what one expects from TW matters too. One size doesn't fit all.
We used to have a development version called Factory. It was good for QA
prior to release date of a GA. That was taken from us, replaced with a
"rolling release". Those who want from TW something closer to Factory
typically want those safety features turned off so that previously
undiscovered bugs can get discovered by people with different hardware and
configurations than BS packagers and QA automation are using.
Recommends don't matter here, because they are turned off globally, in part
to discover dependency breakage, so dup is virtually the only upgrade method
ever used in TW here. It's needed when switching optional repos on and off.
Known problems can typically be avoided or worked around with Zypper's
unequaled locks system.
I have no everyday interest in a "rolling release", only in helping ensure
upcoming releases are better than they would have been without my
contribution. I'm sure I must not be the only one who would have much less to
contribute without using dup.
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19:01
* Richard Brown <RBrownCCB(a)opensuse.org> [07-13-15 12:51]:
So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE
(Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day
Reasons I make this statement
1. zypper up honours vendor/repo choice
if I install packages from Packman or any other additional repo, I
only want to receive updates for those package from that repo. zypper
up does that
2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends
if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back
next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up
Or to put it another way - why I think zypper dup as the
default-day-to-day Tumbleweed update mechanism
1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice
oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad,
zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version
devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
1a. zypper dup with multiple additional repos turns your machine into
a Frankenstein monster.
Oh, your apache is now broken because it doesn't work with the
perl in devel:lang:python? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
2. zypper dup pulls through recommends
zypper dup is designed as a distribution upgrade mechanism, so,
it's meant to be loose and liberal with it's dependency solver to help
you with those large changes. Oh, you didn't want all those extra
recommends? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense, when you want a
zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I
strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane
safety features provided by zypper up.
To utilize "dup" properly, it is imperative to employe locks and
priorities sanely, and review the changes and the "monster" will not
appear. It is *not* to be employed w/o *thought*.
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20:02
On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the
same. :-)
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20:23
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Ken Schneider - Factory
<suse-list3(a)bout-tyme.net> wrote:
On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
I've simply set my priorities in the Packman repos to 95.
zypper dup has been recommended to me repeatedly as the way to keep
Tumbleweed updated.
I'll admit to being left clueless as to the correct one.
As long as my multimedia keep working I'm happy.
I still don't know up or dup?
Steven
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So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the same.
:-)
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Ken Schneider 
21:25
New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up
On Mon 13 Jul 2015 01:23:40 PM CDT, Steven Hess wrote:
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Ken Schneider -
Factory
<suse-list3(a)bout-tyme.net> wrote:
Hi Steven
I only use up, not dup on Tumbleweed.
http://paste.opensuse.org/21679985
With zypper up I still get;
The following product is going to be upgraded:
"openSUSE Tumbleweed"
I'm not interested in the optional packages, now I do always compare
the two first.... but sofar up has worked fine for me.
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On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
I've simply set my priorities in the Packman repos to 95.
zypper dup has been recommended to me repeatedly as the way to keep
Tumbleweed updated.
I'll admit to being left clueless as to the correct one.
As long as my multimedia keep working I'm happy.
I still don't know up or dup?
Steven
So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the
same. :-)
--
Ken Schneider 
21:41
New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up
Op maandag 13 juli 2015 16:25:04 schreef Malcolm:
On Mon 13 Jul 2015 01:23:40 PM CDT, Steven Hess
wrote:
Hi Steven
I only use up, not dup on Tumbleweed.
http://paste.opensuse.org/21679985
With zypper up I still get;
The following product is going to be upgraded:
"openSUSE Tumbleweed"
I'm not interested in the optional packages, now I do always compare
the two first.... but sofar up has worked fine for me.
I also use up. Sometimes a package does not get installed, so I investigate
why. After forcing the update sometimes I got the choice to uninstall one or
more packages. Most of the time I made that choice.
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14 Jul
14 Jul
03:27
New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up
As others have said repo priorities are key.
- Something like packman which has numerous packages with the same
names as factory, but which are compiled with more features and thus
you want to replace should be lower priority (which wins).
- Repositories you add for one-off packages not in main
Tumleweed/Factory should be higher priority (lose to factory packages)
since you only want a particular package not present in Factory and
any dependencies can come from Factory.
Personally:
90 for packman
95 for my custom branched packages that need to win over factory
99 for base factory repositories. (could change to 100 for consistency
I suppose)
105 for one-off repositories like php-applications
I typically see the same result for dup and up with this setup which
makes me feel good. :)
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On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Freek de Kruijf <freek(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
Op maandag 13 juli 2015 16:25:04 schreef Malcolm:
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On Mon 13 Jul 2015 01:23:40 PM CDT, Steven Hess
wrote:
Hi Steven
I only use up, not dup on Tumbleweed.
http://paste.opensuse.org/21679985
With zypper up I still get;
The following product is going to be upgraded:
"openSUSE Tumbleweed"
I'm not interested in the optional packages, now I do always compare
the two first.... but sofar up has worked fine for me.
I also use up. Sometimes a package does not get installed, so I investigate
why. After forcing the update sometimes I got the choice to uninstall one or
more packages. Most of the time I made that choice.
--
fr.gr.
member openSUSE
Freek de Kruijf
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11:05
New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up
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On 2015-07-14 05:27, Jimmy Berry wrote:
As others have said repo priorities are key.
- Something like packman which has numerous packages with the same
names as factory, but which are compiled with more features and
thus you want to replace should be lower priority (which wins). -
Repositories you add for one-off packages not in main
Tumleweed/Factory should be higher priority (lose to factory
packages) since you only want a particular package not present in
Factory and any dependencies can come from Factory.
The problem is that when using dup, anything in those extra repos will
replace whatever comes from the main repo. Not only the single package
that you may want.
Which is why "SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0" is so interesting...
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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14:34
On 07/13/2015 04:23 PM, Steven Hess wrote:
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Ken Schneider -
Factory
<suse-list3(a)bout-tyme.net> wrote:
I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:
https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-review/
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On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
I've simply set my priorities in the Packman repos to 95.
zypper dup has been recommended to me repeatedly as the way to keep
Tumbleweed updated.
I'll admit to being left clueless as to the correct one.
As long as my multimedia keep working I'm happy.
I still don't know up or dup?
Steven
So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the same.
:-)
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Ken Schneider 
15:04
Am Dienstag, 14. Juli 2015, 10:34:40 schrieb Ken Schneider - Factory:
I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:
https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-review/
Yes he does, but Tumbleweed is not the same anymore . In fact apart from the
name its completly different.
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15 Jul
09:21
On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:
https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev
iew/
That's a good reference explaining where the reason for confusion is
coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which, was
nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable releases).
At that time, DUP was mandatory, as
a) Tumbleweed packages had a different vendor
b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as was needed' (it always
started empty with a release, then was being filled up)
For this to work with zypper, 'dup' was nescessary, so that 'the
highest version found in any repository' could be installed, and the
vendor change accepted.
the NEW Tumbleweed (the one we currently talk about) no longer is an
addon repository over an existing release, but is a full distribution
on it's own. As such, dup vs up is so much less important on openSUSE
Tumbleweed (the one introduced end of 2014).
Let ggo of old habits, understand the change, and it's all getting easy
:)
In short, I'd explain:
- on a clean Tumbleweed setup, zypper up will be sufficient. It gets
you the latest packages in the repository, obsoletes/removes packages
for as long they are correctly marked in the rpm metadata.
- The more repositories you add, the more you need to understand what
you expect from those repositories and where from you want your
packages to come. zypper dup, paired with some good repo priorities
MIGHT be the right thing here. The more complex the setup, the less
probable can we give an advise to use up vs dup.
Let's hoe this helps a bit.
Dominique
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10:17
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On 2015-07-15 11:21, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
That's a good reference explaining where the reason for confusion
is coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which,
was nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable
releases).
At that time, DUP was mandatory, as a) Tumbleweed packages had a
different vendor b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as
was needed' (it always started empty with a release, then was being
filled up)
No, no.
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back
around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a
new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some
disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up".
Old Tumbleweed required dup because it was a derivative of factory.
The New Tumbleweed requires dup because it is Factory. A name symlink,
if you prefer.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider -
Factory wrote:
> I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:
>
> https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev
>
>
iew/
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10:21
Carlos E. R. [15.07.2015 12:17]:
On 2015-07-15 11:21, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger
wrote:
Why didn't you quote "Let ggo of old habits, understand the change, and
it's all getting easy" from DimStar's mail?
Like you said, *back in 2008*, it was necessary. Now (as in "7 years
later") it is not. At least not when you use no repos beside TW. Or when
you use repository preferences. As DimStar said...
Werner
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On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider
- Factory wrote:
> I'm sure this author knows a thing or
two:
>
> https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev
>
>
iew/
>
That's a good reference explaining where the
reason for confusion
is coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which,
was nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable
releases).
At that time, DUP was mandatory, as a) Tumbleweed
packages had a
different vendor b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as
was needed' (it always started empty with a release, then was being
filled up)
No, no.
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back
around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a
new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some
disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up".
Old Tumbleweed required dup because it was a derivative of factory.
The New Tumbleweed requires dup because it is Factory. A name symlink,
if you prefer.
10:28
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On 2015-07-15 12:21, Werner Flamme wrote:
Carlos E. R. [15.07.2015 12:17]:
Why didn't you quote "Let ggo of old habits,
understand the change,
and it's all getting easy" from DimStar's mail?
Like you said, *back in 2008*, it was necessary. Now (as in "7
years later") it is not. At least not when you use no repos beside
TW. Or when you use repository preferences. As DimStar said...
Because the reasons then are the same now. I say that dup is necessary.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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10:25
No, no.
Yes, Yes...
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use
right from the start, back
around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a
new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some
disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper
up".
Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to move
from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N
Old Tumbleweed required dup because it was a
derivative of factory.
Sory, Carlos.. no, the old TW was in no way linked to Factory.. it was
a repository adding packages that have been proven stable in Factory
(which is the only 'link' it had) into an add-on repository targeting a
stable release...
The New Tumbleweed requires dup because it is Factory.
A name
symlink,
if you prefer.
No Carlos... not obejction that TW is Factory (i know that very well,
if you follow this list carefully)... but as there are no vendor
changes to take into account (unlike in the old TW setup), there is
basically no difference nowadays between up and dup... if you feel more
comfortable typing dup, do so.. but stop confusing 'the new users' with
old wisdom please.
--
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar(a)opensuse.org>
10:33
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On 2015-07-15 12:25, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you will find I'm
right. I participated in its original testing, and I remember.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
No, no.
Yes, Yes...
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory
use right from the start,
back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in
fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded,
some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use
"zypper up".
Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to
move from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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16:53
On 15 July 2015 at 12:33, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
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On 2015-07-15 12:25, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you will find I'm
right. I participated in its original testing, and I remember.
Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given he's
a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than
you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to
just accept he's right and move on.
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No, no.
Yes, Yes...
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory
use right from the start,
back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in
fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded,
some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use
"zypper up".
Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to
move from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N
17:36
On 07/15/2015 12:53 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
I won't accept that he is right but I will move on.
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On 15 July 2015 at 12:33, Carlos E. R.
<carlos.e.r(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 2015-07-15 12:25, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
>>
>>> No, no.
>>
>> Yes, Yes...
>>
>>> "Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start,
>>> back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in
>>> fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded,
>>> some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use
>>> "zypper up".
>>
>> Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to
>> move from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N
And it is used the same way when going from one release of TW to the
NEXT release of TW which IS a "distribution Upgrade. Why the fuck can't
you understand that?
If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you will find I'm
right. I participated in its original testing, and I remember.
Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given he's
a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than
you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to
just accept he's right and move on.
16 Jul
16 Jul
00:05
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On 2015-07-15 19:36, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
I won't accept that he is right but I will move on.
Same here.
I got it from other Factory designers. Till they say I'm wrong, I'm not.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On 07/15/2015 12:53 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
> On 15 July 2015 at 12:33, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you
will
find I'm right. I participated in its original testing, and I
remember.
Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given
he's a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with
Factory than you have, I think it's in the best interest for your
credibility to just accept he's right and move on.
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08:03
Am 15.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb Richard Brown:
Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong,
Dominique is right, and given he's
a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than
you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to
just accept he's right and move on.
I don't think there is actually a right and wrong here - it's a
question
of preferences and use cases. If you mix repos, zypper up is the only
way - if you want to update from a perfect TW to a perfect TW,
zypper dup is the only way.
Greetings, Stephan
--
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ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn.
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09:06
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On 2015-07-16 10:03, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Thanks.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
Am 15.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb Richard Brown:
Carlos, I
don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given
he's a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with
Factory than you have, I think it's in the best interest for your
credibility to just accept he's right and move on.
I don't think there is actually a right and wrong here - it's a
question of preferences and use cases. If you mix repos, zypper up
is the only way - if you want to update from a perfect TW to a
perfect TW, zypper dup is the only way. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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15 Jul
15 Jul
16:28
On 07/15/2015 05:21 AM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider -
Factory wrote:
Would you use zypper up to go from 13.1 to 13.2? NO! Why, because it is
a different newer distribution. The same goes for TumbleWeed. When you
install the latest published release it is a "distribution upgrade" period.
Will packages sometimes change vendor, absolutely if you have more then
the standard OSS/NON-OSS repos enabled. But that is to be expected.
Sometimes a regression is found and the newest version of package "X" is
found to cause problems so it is removed and the last working version is
newest available so that package "X" is downgraded.
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I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:
https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev
iew/
That's a good reference explaining where the reason for confusion is
coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which, was
nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable releases).
At that time, DUP was mandatory, as
a) Tumbleweed packages had a different vendor
b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as was needed' (it always
started empty with a release, then was being filled up)
For this to work with zypper, 'dup' was nescessary, so that 'the
highest version found in any repository' could be installed, and the
vendor change accepted.
the NEW Tumbleweed (the one we currently talk about) no longer is an
addon repository over an existing release, but is a full distribution
on it's own. As such, dup vs up is so much less important on openSUSE
Tumbleweed (the one introduced end of 2014).
Let ggo of old habits, understand the change, and it's all getting easy
:)
14 Jul
14 Jul
05:44
Am 13.07.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Richard Brown:
1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice
oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad,
zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version
devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
If you installed the perl stack from devel:lang:python it's you to blame
not zypper :)
Greetings, Stephan
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ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn.
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11:31
On Mon, 2015-07-13 at 18:50 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
So, I see this topic has come up again
Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here
IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your
openSUSE
(Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day
Reasons I make this statement
1. zypper up honours vendor/repo choice
if I install packages from Packman or any other additional repo, I
only want to receive updates for those package from that repo. zypper
up does that
2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends
if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back
next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up
Or to put it another way - why I think zypper dup as the
default-day-to-day Tumbleweed update mechanism
1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice
oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad,
zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version
devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
1a. zypper dup with multiple additional repos turns your machine into
a Frankenstein monster.
Oh, your apache is now broken because it doesn't work with the
perl in devel:lang:python? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
2. zypper dup pulls through recommends
zypper dup is designed as a distribution upgrade mechanism, so,
it's meant to be loose and liberal with it's dependency solver to
help
you with those large changes. Oh, you didn't want all those extra
recommends? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup
Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense, when you want a
zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I
strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane
safety features provided by zypper up.
I finally understand the difference! Thank you!
--
Beste Grüße / Kind regards,
Konstantin
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14:43
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
So, I see this topic has come up again
My quick two cents...
All of this confusion is simply the result of a single bad choice in
the "user interface".
By "user interface" I'm referring to the zypper command line, and the
"bad choice" was creating separate commands "zypper up" and
"zypper
dup" that are really just minor variants of the same function.
Instead of two commands, there should only be the one "zypper up"
command, and it should have optional flags that provide the equivalent
of the "dup" behavior. So for example:
OLD: zypper dup ...
NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...
(Note: I'm not certain exactly what those new flags would be, but they
should (a) result in the current "dup" behavior, and (b) clearly
indicate how the "up" behavior is being modified).
Proposal to fix this:
1. Add the necessary flags to "up" to allow it to behave like "dup"
2. Change all documentation specifying use of "dup" to instead specify
"up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends" or whatever
3. Deprecate and eventually remove the "dup" command.
I predict this will not only make it obvious to everyone what the
difference in behavior is, it will also stop all the questions :)
-Archie
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16:14
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On 2015-07-14 16:43, Archie Cobbs wrote:
Instead of two commands, there should only be the one
"zypper up"
command, and it should have optional flags that provide the
equivalent of the "dup" behavior. So for example:
OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes
--recommends ...
I don't think so. This would not explain this new (undocumented) combo:
export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0
zypper dup
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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16:19
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Carlos E. R.
<robin.listas(a)telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2015-07-14 16:43, Archie Cobbs wrote:
Like I said before, I don't know what the exact set of new "up" flags
would be (IANAZE - I am not a zypper expert). I'll let the zypper
experts figure that out.
The important thing would be that they (a) exist (b) are documented
and (c) result in the same effect as "dup".
-Archie
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Instead of two commands, there should only be the
one "zypper up"
command, and it should have optional flags that provide the
equivalent of the "dup" behavior. So for example:
OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes
--recommends ...
I don't think so. This would not explain this new (undocumented) combo:
export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0
zypper dup
17:18
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On 2015-07-14 18:19, Archie Cobbs wrote:
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Carlos E. R.
<> wrote:
The important thing would be that they (a) exist (b)
are
documented and (c) result in the same effect as "dup".
There is another one, mentioned on another post: that "dup" can delete
and downgrade packages.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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17:02
В Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:43:46 -0500
Archie Cobbs <archie(a)dellroad.org> пишет:
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Richard Brown
<RBrownCCB(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
How is arguing about "zypper up" vs. ""zypper up
--allow-vendor-changes" is better than arguing about "zypper up" vs.
"zypper dup"?
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So, I see this topic has come up again
My quick two cents...
All of this confusion is simply the result of a single bad choice in
the "user interface".
By "user interface" I'm referring to the zypper command line, and the
"bad choice" was creating separate commands "zypper up" and
"zypper
dup" that are really just minor variants of the same function.
Instead of two commands, there should only be the one "zypper up"
command, and it should have optional flags that provide the equivalent
of the "dup" behavior. So for example:
OLD: zypper dup ...
NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...
19:50
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Andrei Borzenkov <arvidjaar(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Stopping people from arguing is not the goal (that's impossible).
The goal is simply to eliminate a source of confusion that has
historically increased the amount of arguing.
-Archie
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OLD:
zypper dup ...
NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...
How is arguing about "zypper up" vs. ""zypper up
--allow-vendor-changes" is better than arguing about "zypper up" vs.
"zypper dup"?
15 Jul
15 Jul
04:24
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 05:27, Jimmy Berry wrote:
"The problem is that when using dup, anything in those extra repos
will replace whatever comes from the main repo."
That is definitely not what happens. I do this all the time.
The repository switch is allowed by dup, but unless packages
explicitly depend on the same version and build number they will not
switch to a larger priority repository. If the requirement is explicit
(like devel package) then it behaves as you would expect.
Thus the priority method works excellently and behaves as expected.
Lower if you want to force the switch and higher to only grab packages
that it cannot find in lower repos.
--
Jimmy
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Archie Cobbs <archie(a)dellroad.org> wrote:
As others have said repo priorities are key.
- Something like packman which has numerous packages with the same
names as factory, but which are compiled with more features and
thus you want to replace should be lower priority (which wins). -
Repositories you add for one-off packages not in main
Tumleweed/Factory should be higher priority (lose to factory
packages) since you only want a particular package not present in
Factory and any dependencies can come from Factory.
The problem is that when using dup, anything in those extra repos will
replace whatever comes from the main repo. Not only the single package
that you may want.
Which is why "SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0" is so interesting...
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Andrei Borzenkov
<arvidjaar(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Stopping people from arguing is not the goal (that's impossible).
The goal is simply to eliminate a source of confusion that has
historically increased the amount of arguing.
-Archie
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OLD:
zypper dup ...
NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...
How is arguing about "zypper up" vs. ""zypper up
--allow-vendor-changes" is better than arguing about "zypper up" vs.
"zypper dup"?
2163
days inactive
2166
days old
37 comments
19 participants
participants (19)
-
Andrei Borzenkov -
Andrei Dziahel -
Archie Cobbs -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Felix Miata -
Freek de Kruijf -
Jan Engelhardt -
Jimmy Berry -
Ken Schneider - Factory -
Konstantin Baikov -
Malcolm -
Patrick Shanahan -
Richard Brown -
Stefan Kunze -
Stephan Kulow -
Steven Hess -
Werner Flamme