[opensuse-factory] Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up - openSUSE Factory

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Richard Brown

13 Jul 2015 13 Jul '15

16:50

So, I see this topic has come up again Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day Reasons I make this statement 1. zypper up honours vendor/repo choice if I install packages from Packman or any other additional repo, I only want to receive updates for those package from that repo. zypper up does that 2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up Or to put it another way - why I think zypper dup as the default-day-to-day Tumbleweed update mechanism 1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad, zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup 1a. zypper dup with multiple additional repos turns your machine into a Frankenstein monster. Oh, your apache is now broken because it doesn't work with the perl in devel:lang:python? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup 2. zypper dup pulls through recommends zypper dup is designed as a distribution upgrade mechanism, so, it's meant to be loose and liberal with it's dependency solver to help you with those large changes. Oh, you didn't want all those extra recommends? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense, when you want a zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane safety features provided by zypper up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

Jan Engelhardt

13 Jul 13 Jul

16:52

On Monday 2015-07-13 18:50, Richard Brown wrote:

...

2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up

They do come back if a package is to be updated which has a Recommends, and/or if you install a package which has Recommends. IIRC there is no different behavior of --(no-)recommends between up and dup. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

16:54

On 13 July 2015 at 18:52, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

They do come back if a package is to be updated which has a Recommends, and/or if you install a package which has Recommends. IIRC there is no different behavior of --(no-)recommends between up and dup.

Okay, let me rephrase and retain my main point "I get less extra **** that I explicitly didn't want, because zypper is more conservative about what new packages it installs" ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

18:07

On Monday 2015-07-13 18:54, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 13 July 2015 at 18:52, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...
They do come back if a package is to be updated which has a Recommends, and/or if you install a package which has Recommends. IIRC there is no different behavior of --(no-)recommends between up and dup.

Okay, let me rephrase and retain my main point "I get less extra **** that I explicitly didn't want, because zypper is more conservative about what new packages it installs" ;)

Feel free to open a bug report. I support making --no-recommends the default, and only using --recommends during initial install. The argument to have libzypp default to --recommends was so that the initial install via yast2 is not totally useless. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:23

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 18:50, Richard Brown wrote:

...

So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day

But I have been reading, since years, several devs state that "zypper dup" is the only supported update method for Factory and its direct derivatives, like Tumbleweed. And they have not said otherwise yet. Sure, zypper dup is not nice when you have to use it often. Which is probably why they (they = zypper devs, in this case) are redesigning and adding experimental options like "OLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWj9AcACgkQja8UbcUWM1zQxAD+KhIqtpuu19kyQEkk7Sz5CDNQ VoLN9AByzxww7T3ue0sA/0fzluhr4jNRaXWgjFJNWc2re/6jugKwc9PSYQ7pqPv/ =lmHN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Dziahel

17:36

I believe "zypper dup" is a method to update *to* Factory/TW, which does make sense. 2015-07-13 20:23 GMT+03:00 Carlos E. R. :

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-13 18:50, Richard Brown wrote:

...
So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day

But I have been reading, since years, several devs state that "zypper dup" is the only supported update method for Factory and its direct derivatives, like Tumbleweed. And they have not said otherwise yet.

Sure, zypper dup is not nice when you have to use it often. Which is probably why they (they = zypper devs, in this case) are redesigning and adding experimental options like "OLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0".

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iF4EAREIAAYFAlWj9AcACgkQja8UbcUWM1zQxAD+KhIqtpuu19kyQEkk7Sz5CDNQ VoLN9AByzxww7T3ue0sA/0fzluhr4jNRaXWgjFJNWc2re/6jugKwc9PSYQ7pqPv/ =lmHN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Regards, Andrei Dziahel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

18:06

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 19:36, Andrei Dziahel wrote:

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I believe "zypper dup" is a method to update *to* Factory/TW, which does make sense.

Yes, true; but updating from factory 1536 to factory 1537 is considered also a distribution upgrade, a system upgrade, so zypper dup applies. The reasoning is that on any factory snapshots there can be additions and disappearances and downgrades, and "dup" is designed to apply them. "zypper up" is not. In fact, if you go back in the factory mail list to the epoch (2008?) when zypper dup was designed, it was designed precisely for this situation. As a method to update factory online for the people that were using it. I was one of the people testing and reporting on it, so I remember. I don't have my full archive on this laptop, or I would provide references. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWj/hsACgkQja8UbcUWM1zHOgEAoMLy2h56LcYnubjiTIGDcHqa TdrU1KrADUi5/DKXuuUA/17ArPD+Nu/I+z9v0Hhk/ZcJtVthBxB73WNcTIitDONL =Ulwg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

18:17

Richard Brown composed on 2015-07-13 18:50 (UTC+0200):

...

IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day

...

Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense, when you want a zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane safety features provided by zypper up.

OTOH, maybe what one expects from TW matters too. One size doesn't fit all. We used to have a development version called Factory. It was good for QA prior to release date of a GA. That was taken from us, replaced with a "rolling release". Those who want from TW something closer to Factory typically want those safety features turned off so that previously undiscovered bugs can get discovered by people with different hardware and configurations than BS packagers and QA automation are using. Recommends don't matter here, because they are turned off globally, in part to discover dependency breakage, so dup is virtually the only upgrade method ever used in TW here. It's needed when switching optional repos on and off. Known problems can typically be avoided or worked around with Zypper's unequaled locks system. I have no everyday interest in a "rolling release", only in helping ensure upcoming releases are better than they would have been without my contribution. I'm sure I must not be the only one who would have much less to contribute without using dup. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

19:01

* Richard Brown [07-13-15 12:51]:

...

So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day

Reasons I make this statement

1. zypper up honours vendor/repo choice if I install packages from Packman or any other additional repo, I only want to receive updates for those package from that repo. zypper up does that

2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up

Or to put it another way - why I think zypper dup as the default-day-to-day Tumbleweed update mechanism

1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad, zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup

1a. zypper dup with multiple additional repos turns your machine into a Frankenstein monster. Oh, your apache is now broken because it doesn't work with the perl in devel:lang:python? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup

2. zypper dup pulls through recommends zypper dup is designed as a distribution upgrade mechanism, so, it's meant to be loose and liberal with it's dependency solver to help you with those large changes. Oh, you didn't want all those extra recommends? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup

Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense, when you want a zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane safety features provided by zypper up.

To utilize "dup" properly, it is imperative to employe locks and priorities sanely, and review the changes and the "monster" will not appear. It is *not* to be employed w/o *thought*. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - Factory

20:02

On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the same. :-) -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Steven Hess

20:23

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...

On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the same. :-)

-- Ken Schneider

I've simply set my priorities in the Packman repos to 95. zypper dup has been recommended to me repeatedly as the way to keep Tumbleweed updated. I'll admit to being left clueless as to the correct one. As long as my multimedia keep working I'm happy. I still don't know up or dup? Steven -- ____________ Apply appropriate technology. Use what works without prejudice. Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Owner Flex-1500 and Flex-3000 Flex-6300, FT-857D, FT-817ND openSUSE Linux 13.1 KDE Known as FlameBait and The Sock Puppet of Doom. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Malcolm

21:25

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up

On Mon 13 Jul 2015 01:23:40 PM CDT, Steven Hess wrote:

...

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...
On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the same. :-)

-- Ken Schneider

I've simply set my priorities in the Packman repos to 95. zypper dup has been recommended to me repeatedly as the way to keep Tumbleweed updated. I'll admit to being left clueless as to the correct one. As long as my multimedia keep working I'm happy. I still don't know up or dup?

Steven

Hi Steven I only use up, not dup on Tumbleweed. http://paste.opensuse.org/21679985 With zypper up I still get; The following product is going to be upgraded: "openSUSE Tumbleweed" I'm not interested in the optional packages, now I do always compare the two first.... but sofar up has worked fine for me. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° LFCS, SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 12 GNOME 3.10.1 Kernel 3.12.43-52.6-default up 20:10, 3 users, load average: 0.23, 0.24, 0.18 CPU AMD A4-5150M APU @ 3.3GHz | GPU Richland Radeon HD 8350G -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Freek de Kruijf

21:41

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up

Op maandag 13 juli 2015 16:25:04 schreef Malcolm:

...

On Mon 13 Jul 2015 01:23:40 PM CDT, Steven Hess wrote: Hi Steven I only use up, not dup on Tumbleweed. http://paste.opensuse.org/21679985

With zypper up I still get;

The following product is going to be upgraded: "openSUSE Tumbleweed"

I'm not interested in the optional packages, now I do always compare the two first.... but sofar up has worked fine for me.

I also use up. Sometimes a package does not get installed, so I investigate why. After forcing the update sometimes I got the choice to uninstall one or more packages. Most of the time I made that choice. -- fr.gr. member openSUSE Freek de Kruijf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jimmy Berry

14 Jul 14 Jul

03:27

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up

As others have said repo priorities are key. - Something like packman which has numerous packages with the same names as factory, but which are compiled with more features and thus you want to replace should be lower priority (which wins). - Repositories you add for one-off packages not in main Tumleweed/Factory should be higher priority (lose to factory packages) since you only want a particular package not present in Factory and any dependencies can come from Factory. Personally: 90 for packman 95 for my custom branched packages that need to win over factory 99 for base factory repositories. (could change to 100 for consistency I suppose) 105 for one-off repositories like php-applications I typically see the same result for dup and up with this setup which makes me feel good. :) -- Jimmy On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Freek de Kruijf wrote:

...

Op maandag 13 juli 2015 16:25:04 schreef Malcolm:

...
On Mon 13 Jul 2015 01:23:40 PM CDT, Steven Hess wrote: Hi Steven I only use up, not dup on Tumbleweed. http://paste.opensuse.org/21679985

With zypper up I still get;

The following product is going to be upgraded: "openSUSE Tumbleweed"

I'm not interested in the optional packages, now I do always compare the two first.... but sofar up has worked fine for me.

I also use up. Sometimes a package does not get installed, so I investigate why. After forcing the update sometimes I got the choice to uninstall one or more packages. Most of the time I made that choice.

-- fr.gr.

member openSUSE Freek de Kruijf

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:05

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Tumbleweed - To zypper dup or up

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 05:27, Jimmy Berry wrote:

...

As others have said repo priorities are key.

- Something like packman which has numerous packages with the same names as factory, but which are compiled with more features and thus you want to replace should be lower priority (which wins). - Repositories you add for one-off packages not in main Tumleweed/Factory should be higher priority (lose to factory packages) since you only want a particular package not present in Factory and any dependencies can come from Factory.

The problem is that when using dup, anything in those extra repos will replace whatever comes from the main repo. Not only the single package that you may want. Which is why "SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0" is so interesting... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk7OEACgkQja8UbcUWM1zZFAD+NUwEi0yYOqeZaiPFJb4A+kyC WpMy9Q17yK07B1GnMmQA/RzXwevcGgTP3ionSrXeJIEaE7q9Pr5P09Vou5LoP0J6 =Mx6P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - Factory

14:34

On 07/13/2015 04:23 PM, Steven Hess wrote:

...

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...
On 07/13/2015 12:50 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and no two are the same. :-)

-- Ken Schneider

I've simply set my priorities in the Packman repos to 95. zypper dup has been recommended to me repeatedly as the way to keep Tumbleweed updated. I'll admit to being left clueless as to the correct one. As long as my multimedia keep working I'm happy. I still don't know up or dup?

Steven

I'm sure this author knows a thing or two: https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-review/ -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Kunze

15:04

Am Dienstag, 14. Juli 2015, 10:34:40 schrieb Ken Schneider - Factory:

...

I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:

https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-review/

Yes he does, but Tumbleweed is not the same anymore . In fact apart from the name its completly different. -- Stefan Kunze SUSE Dispatch Engineer ________________________________________________________________ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Jennifer Guild, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nürnberg

Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger

15 Jul 15 Jul

09:21

On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...

I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:

https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev iew/

That's a good reference explaining where the reason for confusion is coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which, was nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable releases). At that time, DUP was mandatory, as a) Tumbleweed packages had a different vendor b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as was needed' (it always started empty with a release, then was being filled up) For this to work with zypper, 'dup' was nescessary, so that 'the highest version found in any repository' could be installed, and the vendor change accepted. the NEW Tumbleweed (the one we currently talk about) no longer is an addon repository over an existing release, but is a full distribution on it's own. As such, dup vs up is so much less important on openSUSE Tumbleweed (the one introduced end of 2014). Let ggo of old habits, understand the change, and it's all getting easy :) In short, I'd explain: - on a clean Tumbleweed setup, zypper up will be sufficient. It gets you the latest packages in the repository, obsoletes/removes packages for as long they are correctly marked in the rpm metadata. - The more repositories you add, the more you need to understand what you expect from those repositories and where from you want your packages to come. zypper dup, paired with some good repo priorities MIGHT be the right thing here. The more complex the setup, the less probable can we give an advise to use up vs dup. Let's hoe this helps a bit. Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger

Carlos E. R.

10:17

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-15 11:21, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...
I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:

https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev

iew/

...
That's a good reference explaining where the reason for confusion is coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which, was nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable releases).

At that time, DUP was mandatory, as a) Tumbleweed packages had a different vendor b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as was needed' (it always started empty with a release, then was being filled up)

No, no. "Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up". Old Tumbleweed required dup because it was a derivative of factory. The New Tumbleweed requires dup because it is Factory. A name symlink, if you prefer. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWmMzcACgkQja8UbcUWM1zGEQD/QaxbZU6qCbBB21qUGrvqUqn1 rng3DCzPw6tIw1beFPwA/RIRn3NuhHsYTBPrRhR3YmZPUnrg0m1T8hOVM8qFzeni =zIn7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Werner Flamme

10:21

Carlos E. R. [15.07.2015 12:17]:

...

On 2015-07-15 11:21, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...
On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...
...
I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:

https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev

iew/

...
...
That's a good reference explaining where the reason for confusion is coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which, was nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable releases).

...
At that time, DUP was mandatory, as a) Tumbleweed packages had a different vendor b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as was needed' (it always started empty with a release, then was being filled up)

No, no.

"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up".

Old Tumbleweed required dup because it was a derivative of factory.

The New Tumbleweed requires dup because it is Factory. A name symlink, if you prefer.

Why didn't you quote "Let ggo of old habits, understand the change, and it's all getting easy" from DimStar's mail? Like you said, *back in 2008*, it was necessary. Now (as in "7 years later") it is not. At least not when you use no repos beside TW. Or when you use repository preferences. As DimStar said... Werner --

Carlos E. R.

10:28

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-15 12:21, Werner Flamme wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. [15.07.2015 12:17]:

...

Why didn't you quote "Let ggo of old habits, understand the change, and it's all getting easy" from DimStar's mail?

Like you said, *back in 2008*, it was necessary. Now (as in "7 years later") it is not. At least not when you use no repos beside TW. Or when you use repository preferences. As DimStar said...

Because the reasons then are the same now. I say that dup is necessary. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWmNdoACgkQja8UbcUWM1wqAgD/eanifjfAeCJxb1D/m6asIZ6J PtxrKtAj/8MgxS1JOu4A/Rd52PUuGkYDk6boAcFhQxR+c8PF+fOaA3nQQKGp+hOb =iELp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger

10:25

...

No, no.

Yes, Yes...

...

"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up".

Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to move from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N

...

Old Tumbleweed required dup because it was a derivative of factory.

Sory, Carlos.. no, the old TW was in no way linked to Factory.. it was a repository adding packages that have been proven stable in Factory (which is the only 'link' it had) into an add-on repository targeting a stable release...

...

The New Tumbleweed requires dup because it is Factory. A name symlink, if you prefer.

No Carlos... not obejction that TW is Factory (i know that very well, if you follow this list carefully)... but as there are no vendor changes to take into account (unlike in the old TW setup), there is basically no difference nowadays between up and dup... if you feel more comfortable typing dup, do so.. but stop confusing 'the new users' with old wisdom please. -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger

Carlos E. R.

10:33

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-15 12:25, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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...
No, no.

Yes, Yes...

...
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up".

Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to move from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N

If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you will find I'm right. I participated in its original testing, and I remember. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWmNu4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1zU/AD+IDjpv8Wfv8olQXWbQcqF+uiz CIXW4kUm31oQZKXyBrEA/2SGDQBIlc/ooKsQ9YXeUiMjWDkwMhAMgAVfO8NqXPqk =YUNn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

16:53

On 15 July 2015 at 12:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-15 12:25, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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...
No, no.

Yes, Yes...

...
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up".

Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to move from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N

If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you will find I'm right. I participated in its original testing, and I remember.

Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given he's a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to just accept he's right and move on. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - Factory

17:36

On 07/15/2015 12:53 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 15 July 2015 at 12:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-07-15 12:25, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...
...
No, no.

Yes, Yes...

...
"Zypper dup" was designed for Factory use right from the start, back around 2008, for "daily" use. Each instance of Factory is in fact a new release: some packages are updated, some downgraded, some disappear. Not every day, true: when they don't, you can use "zypper up".

Dup was designed as 'distribution upgrade' - the official way to move from openSUSE stable M to openSUSE Stable N

And it is used the same way when going from one release of TW to the NEXT release of TW which IS a "distribution Upgrade. Why the fuck can't you understand that?

...

...
If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you will find I'm right. I participated in its original testing, and I remember.

Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given he's a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to just accept he's right and move on.

I won't accept that he is right but I will move on. -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16 Jul 16 Jul

00:05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-15 19:36, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

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On 07/15/2015 12:53 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
On 15 July 2015 at 12:33, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

...
...
If you go back to the mails when dup was designed, you will find I'm right. I participated in its original testing, and I remember.

Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given he's a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to just accept he's right and move on.

I won't accept that he is right but I will move on.

Same here. I got it from other Factory designers. Till they say I'm wrong, I'm not. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWm9UIACgkQja8UbcUWM1ylcwD9FdsJACI/nWn2/BqZOJoTp1+T WSprHOoMe2caI/Yj3uABAJxufEhP1r3ZKgcZb9kj1RwUwfBfan+ykMgeLE2wQrCD =dafN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

08:03

Am 15.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb Richard Brown:

...

Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given he's a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to just accept he's right and move on.

I don't think there is actually a right and wrong here - it's a question of preferences and use cases. If you mix repos, zypper up is the only way - if you want to update from a perfect TW to a perfect TW, zypper dup is the only way. Greetings, Stephan -- Ma muaß weiterkämpfen, kämpfen bis zum Umfalln, a wenn die ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

09:06

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-16 10:03, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am 15.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb Richard Brown:

...

...
Carlos, I don't care, you're wrong, Dominique is right, and given he's a Factory maintainer who's done a heck of a lot more with Factory than you have, I think it's in the best interest for your credibility to just accept he's right and move on.

I don't think there is actually a right and wrong here - it's a question of preferences and use cases. If you mix repos, zypper up is the only way - if you want to update from a perfect TW to a perfect TW, zypper dup is the only way.

Thanks. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWndCgACgkQja8UbcUWM1zu4wD+P3PHtNyLs5uvjqtrwp243qnh IKtZ2BUX1E5kCkafE1cA/iLvofrghb8NvaF4985h96GoiFfU/LPJhl0pAR+Y6fjV =u1nh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - Factory

15 Jul 15 Jul

16:28

On 07/15/2015 05:21 AM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 10:34 -0400, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

...
I'm sure this author knows a thing or two:

https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/opensuse-tumbleweed-a-rev iew/

That's a good reference explaining where the reason for confusion is coming from... the article is about 'the old Tumbleweed' (which, was nothing more than an addon repository over openSUSE Stable releases).

At that time, DUP was mandatory, as a) Tumbleweed packages had a different vendor b) packages were added to the TW repository 'as was needed' (it always started empty with a release, then was being filled up)

For this to work with zypper, 'dup' was nescessary, so that 'the highest version found in any repository' could be installed, and the vendor change accepted.

the NEW Tumbleweed (the one we currently talk about) no longer is an addon repository over an existing release, but is a full distribution on it's own. As such, dup vs up is so much less important on openSUSE Tumbleweed (the one introduced end of 2014).

Let ggo of old habits, understand the change, and it's all getting easy :)

Would you use zypper up to go from 13.1 to 13.2? NO! Why, because it is a different newer distribution. The same goes for TumbleWeed. When you install the latest published release it is a "distribution upgrade" period. Will packages sometimes change vendor, absolutely if you have more then the standard OSS/NON-OSS repos enabled. But that is to be expected. Sometimes a regression is found and the newest version of package "X" is found to cause problems so it is removed and the last working version is newest available so that package "X" is downgraded. -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

14 Jul 14 Jul

05:44

Am 13.07.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Richard Brown:

...

1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad, zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup

If you installed the perl stack from devel:lang:python it's you to blame not zypper :) Greetings, Stephan -- Ma muaß weiterkämpfen, kämpfen bis zum Umfalln, a wenn die ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Konstantin Baikov

11:31

On Mon, 2015-07-13 at 18:50 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:

...

So, I see this topic has come up again

Let me make my opinion absolutely clear here

IMHO zypper up is the sane, safest, option for upgrading your openSUSE (Tumbleweed, 13.2, Leap, doesn't matter) installation day to day

Reasons I make this statement

1. zypper up honours vendor/repo choice if I install packages from Packman or any other additional repo, I only want to receive updates for those package from that repo. zypper up does that

2. zypper up does not pull through new recommends if I remove recommended packages, I don't want them coming back next time I upgrade. they don't come back with zypper up

Or to put it another way - why I think zypper dup as the default-day-to-day Tumbleweed update mechanism

1. zypper dup ignores vendor/repo choice oh, you wanted one perl module from that additional repo? Too bad, zypper dup just replaced your entire perl stack with the version devel:lang:python. TOO BAD, you used zypper dup

1a. zypper dup with multiple additional repos turns your machine into a Frankenstein monster. Oh, your apache is now broken because it doesn't work with the perl in devel:lang:python? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup

2. zypper dup pulls through recommends zypper dup is designed as a distribution upgrade mechanism, so, it's meant to be loose and liberal with it's dependency solver to help you with those large changes. Oh, you didn't want all those extra recommends? TOO BAD, you used zypper dup

Sure, there's times that zypper dup makes sense, when you want a zypper up without any of it's safety features turned on, but I strongly recommend zypper up because, day to day, you want the sane safety features provided by zypper up.

I finally understand the difference! Thank you! -- Beste Grüße / Kind regards, Konstantin --- SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Archie Cobbs

14:43

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

So, I see this topic has come up again

My quick two cents... All of this confusion is simply the result of a single bad choice in the "user interface". By "user interface" I'm referring to the zypper command line, and the "bad choice" was creating separate commands "zypper up" and "zypper dup" that are really just minor variants of the same function. Instead of two commands, there should only be the one "zypper up" command, and it should have optional flags that provide the equivalent of the "dup" behavior. So for example: OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ... (Note: I'm not certain exactly what those new flags would be, but they should (a) result in the current "dup" behavior, and (b) clearly indicate how the "up" behavior is being modified). Proposal to fix this: 1. Add the necessary flags to "up" to allow it to behave like "dup" 2. Change all documentation specifying use of "dup" to instead specify "up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends" or whatever 3. Deprecate and eventually remove the "dup" command. I predict this will not only make it obvious to everyone what the difference in behavior is, it will also stop all the questions :) -Archie -- Archie L. Cobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:14

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 16:43, Archie Cobbs wrote:

...

Instead of two commands, there should only be the one "zypper up" command, and it should have optional flags that provide the equivalent of the "dup" behavior. So for example:

OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...

I don't think so. This would not explain this new (undocumented) combo: export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0 zypper dup - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlNYIACgkQja8UbcUWM1zh8wD/YqjsSNRGvC8lZJRjdb3gSsrx BV88OZAYVECzdEWwJ5EA/jGeQdQTnqvpNf+Fmofxj69sjlKIr3fWIRB9fVJ+yfe3 =90tR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Archie Cobbs

16:19

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2015-07-14 16:43, Archie Cobbs wrote:

...
Instead of two commands, there should only be the one "zypper up" command, and it should have optional flags that provide the equivalent of the "dup" behavior. So for example:

OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...

I don't think so. This would not explain this new (undocumented) combo:

export SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0 zypper dup

Like I said before, I don't know what the exact set of new "up" flags would be (IANAZE - I am not a zypper expert). I'll let the zypper experts figure that out. The important thing would be that they (a) exist (b) are documented and (c) result in the same effect as "dup". -Archie -- Archie L. Cobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:18

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 18:19, Archie Cobbs wrote:

...

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

The important thing would be that they (a) exist (b) are documented and (c) result in the same effect as "dup".

There is another one, mentioned on another post: that "dup" can delete and downgrade packages. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlREsACgkQja8UbcUWM1wC4AD+KSpf4+TaJnWNjPmsDs0L/pBN 6eoYmSbIKKoW2kVgiUQBAItQd2TQaO6m+pOWeUsqiv160k6KBakXuOGSoFqBRcEL =C4c+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov

17:02

В Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:43:46 -0500 Archie Cobbs пишет:

...

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
So, I see this topic has come up again

My quick two cents...

All of this confusion is simply the result of a single bad choice in the "user interface".

By "user interface" I'm referring to the zypper command line, and the "bad choice" was creating separate commands "zypper up" and "zypper dup" that are really just minor variants of the same function.

Instead of two commands, there should only be the one "zypper up" command, and it should have optional flags that provide the equivalent of the "dup" behavior. So for example:

OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...

How is arguing about "zypper up" vs. ""zypper up --allow-vendor-changes" is better than arguing about "zypper up" vs. "zypper dup"? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Archie Cobbs

19:50

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

...
OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...

How is arguing about "zypper up" vs. ""zypper up --allow-vendor-changes" is better than arguing about "zypper up" vs. "zypper dup"?

Stopping people from arguing is not the goal (that's impossible). The goal is simply to eliminate a source of confusion that has historically increased the amount of arguing. -Archie -- Archie L. Cobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jimmy Berry

15 Jul 15 Jul

04:24

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2015-07-14 05:27, Jimmy Berry wrote:

...
As others have said repo priorities are key.

- Something like packman which has numerous packages with the same names as factory, but which are compiled with more features and thus you want to replace should be lower priority (which wins). - Repositories you add for one-off packages not in main Tumleweed/Factory should be higher priority (lose to factory packages) since you only want a particular package not present in Factory and any dependencies can come from Factory.

The problem is that when using dup, anything in those extra repos will replace whatever comes from the main repo. Not only the single package that you may want.

Which is why "SOLVER_FLAG_DUP_ALLOW_VENDORCHANGE=0" is so interesting...

"The problem is that when using dup, anything in those extra repos will replace whatever comes from the main repo." That is definitely not what happens. I do this all the time. The repository switch is allowed by dup, but unless packages explicitly depend on the same version and build number they will not switch to a larger priority repository. If the requirement is explicit (like devel package) then it behaves as you would expect. Thus the priority method works excellently and behaves as expected. Lower if you want to force the switch and higher to only grab packages that it cannot find in lower repos. -- Jimmy On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Archie Cobbs wrote:

...

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...
...
OLD: zypper dup ... NEW: zypper up --allow-vendor-changes --recommends ...

How is arguing about "zypper up" vs. ""zypper up --allow-vendor-changes" is better than arguing about "zypper up" vs. "zypper dup"?

Stopping people from arguing is not the goal (that's impossible).

The goal is simply to eliminate a source of confusion that has historically increased the amount of arguing.

-Archie

-- Archie L. Cobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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19 participants

participants (19)

Andrei Borzenkov
Andrei Dziahel
Archie Cobbs
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger
Felix Miata
Freek de Kruijf
Jan Engelhardt
Jimmy Berry
Ken Schneider - Factory
Konstantin Baikov
Malcolm
Patrick Shanahan
Richard Brown
Stefan Kunze
Stephan Kulow
Steven Hess
Werner Flamme