Broken Vagrant in Tumbleweed.
Made the gigantic mistake of running 'zypper dup' on Monday Jan 13, 2025 to try to update to the latest kernel, rebooted my machine and now, magically, vagrant is totally missing with no way to get it back. Who was the genius who thought that removing a major Linux utility and having absolutely no way to replace it was a good idea? Well congratulations! Good job! You lost a customer and I'll never come back. I've used SUSE for more than 15 years now as my main work machine and now after spending two days trying to figure out a way to get vagrant back, I've given up. Now I have to waste another day completely reinstalling a new desktop system. It is absolutely baffling how this could happen. Do you people really think that no one uses Vagrant? You know that none of the repos listed software.opensuse.org that claim to have Vagrant work, don't you? You know that the binary distro from Hashicorp doesn't work on opensuse because someone borked the ncurses library into separate libraries on tumbleweed, right? I'm furious about this. I've never seen such an idiotic move by a software company outside of Sun or SCO. Awesome distro! Great job!
Hello, Il 16/01/25 02:07, Dan Gora ha scritto:
Made the gigantic mistake of running 'zypper dup' on Monday Jan 13, 2025 to try to update to the latest kernel, rebooted my machine and now, magically, vagrant is totally missing with no way to get it back.
Who was the genius who thought that removing a major Linux utility and having absolutely no way to replace it was a good idea?
https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/thread/3... Cheers, Eyad
Op donderdag 16 januari 2025 02:14:29 Midden-Europese standaardtijd schreef Eyad Issa:
Hello,
Il 16/01/25 02:07, Dan Gora ha scritto:
Made the gigantic mistake of running 'zypper dup' on Monday Jan 13, 2025 to try to update to the latest kernel, rebooted my machine and now, magically, vagrant is totally missing with no way to get it back.
Who was the genius who thought that removing a major Linux utility and having absolutely no way to replace it was a good idea? https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/thread/3 ATHXIRH6WX2ROKWUUJUK4RLYWI55IRU/#B6BHKRYD5B7JC2DSL7MUUTHQ3RMOLUTL
Cheers,
Eyad Thanks Eyad, you were quicker in finding this one.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team openSUSE Mods Team
1) this thread was from Nov 2023. Vagrant was still available in Tumbleweed in Nov 2024 or there about. Needless to say, I doubt that many people saw this thread because who has time to follow the details of their distro's development? I've got my own projects to work on. There should have been a gigantic warning that you are about to remove a major tool. 2) On what planet is Vagrant a "dead project"? What other options are there for orchestrating multiple VMs? Please don't say kubernettes or anything ridiculous like that. I use Vagrant every day for multiple projects. I find it next to impossible to believe that I'm the only one. 3) What was wrong with "leaving it the hell alone"? If there was a license change, then don't update to the new version with the changed license! Why was that so hard? You could have still removed all the old ruby 2.X cruft and just left the ruby 3.3.0 gems alone so that things would still work. None of this addresses the fact that there is now absolutely no way to install Vagrant on OpenSuse. I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro. thanks! dan
On 1/15/25 7:44 PM, Dan Gora wrote:
1) this thread was from Nov 2023. Vagrant was still available in Tumbleweed in Nov 2024 or there about. Needless to say, I doubt that many people saw this thread because who has time to follow the details of their distro's development? I've got my own projects to work on. There should have been a gigantic warning that you are about to remove a major tool.
2) On what planet is Vagrant a "dead project"? What other options are there for orchestrating multiple VMs? Please don't say kubernettes or anything ridiculous like that. I use Vagrant every day for multiple projects. I find it next to impossible to believe that I'm the only one.
3) What was wrong with "leaving it the hell alone"? If there was a license change, then don't update to the new version with the changed license! Why was that so hard? You could have still removed all the old ruby 2.X cruft and just left the ruby 3.3.0 gems alone so that things would still work.
None of this addresses the fact that there is now absolutely no way to install Vagrant on OpenSuse.
I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro.
thanks! dan
Hi, what about this option? https://developer.hashicorp.com/vagrant/install
On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 8:47 PM Dan Gora <danubatuba@gmail.com> wrote:
1) this thread was from Nov 2023. Vagrant was still available in Tumbleweed in Nov 2024 or there about. Needless to say, I doubt that many people saw this thread because who has time to follow the details of their distro's development? I've got my own projects to work on. There should have been a gigantic warning that you are about to remove a major tool.
In that thread, you'll see that the successor maintainer replied that they gave up in October of 2024. The Vagrant stack was removed shortly afterward.
2) On what planet is Vagrant a "dead project"? What other options are there for orchestrating multiple VMs? Please don't say kubernettes or anything ridiculous like that. I use Vagrant every day for multiple projects. I find it next to impossible to believe that I'm the only one.
Vagrant is no longer developed as an open source project. It is no longer licensed under an OSI-accepted / FSF-free license.
3) What was wrong with "leaving it the hell alone"? If there was a license change, then don't update to the new version with the changed license! Why was that so hard? You could have still removed all the old ruby 2.X cruft and just left the ruby 3.3.0 gems alone so that things would still work.
The Vagrant stack depends on a lot of rubygems that had no maintainers to update for new versions of Ruby, so when those gems expired in Factory, Vagrant went with it.
None of this addresses the fact that there is now absolutely no way to install Vagrant on OpenSuse.
I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro.
Please stop acting like an entitled jerk on the lists. That kind of conduct is never okay, not in person and not online. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
16 Jan 2025 02:47:48 Dan Gora <danubatuba@gmail.com>:
1) this thread was from Nov 2023. Vagrant was still available in Tumbleweed in Nov 2024 or there about. Needless to say, I doubt that many people saw this thread because who has time to follow the details of their distro's development? I've got my own projects to work on. There should have been a gigantic warning that you are about to remove a major tool.
2) On what planet is Vagrant a "dead project"? What other options are there for orchestrating multiple VMs? Please don't say kubernettes or anything ridiculous like that. I use Vagrant every day for multiple projects. I find it next to impossible to believe that I'm the only one.
3) What was wrong with "leaving it the hell alone"? If there was a license change, then don't update to the new version with the changed license! Why was that so hard? You could have still removed all the old ruby 2.X cruft and just left the ruby 3.3.0 gems alone so that things would still work.
None of this addresses the fact that there is now absolutely no way to install Vagrant on OpenSuse.
I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro.
thanks! dan
Vagrant through Homebrew (ex. Linuxbrew), as it bundles the libraries itself, works on TW Regards
Nicolas Formichella wrote:
16 Jan 2025 02:47:48 Dan Gora <danubatuba@gmail.com>:
1) this thread was from Nov 2023. Vagrant was still available in Tumbleweed in Nov 2024 or there about. Needless to say, I doubt that many people saw this thread because who has time to follow the details of their distro's development? I've got my own projects to work on. There should have been a gigantic warning that you are about to remove a major tool. 2) On what planet is Vagrant a "dead project"? What other options are there for orchestrating multiple VMs? Please don't say kubernettes or anything ridiculous like that. I use Vagrant every day for multiple projects. I find it next to impossible to believe that I'm the only one. 3) What was wrong with "leaving it the hell alone"? If there was a license change, then don't update to the new version with the changed license! Why was that so hard? You could have still removed all the old ruby 2.X cruft and just left the ruby 3.3.0 gems alone so that things would still work. None of this addresses the fact that there is now absolutely no way to install Vagrant on OpenSuse. I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro. thanks! dan Vagrant through Homebrew (ex. Linuxbrew), as it bundles the libraries itself, works on TW
Regards
Thanks for the actual useful suggestion, but unfortunately this doesn't work either because it just installs the binary version of vagrant which doesn't work on opensuse due the incompatible libncurses as described above. thanks! dan
On 2025-01-16 02:44, Dan Gora wrote:
I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro.
What documentation? Link? I searched for Vagrant on our wiki and found basically nothing. I also googled for "site:news.opensuse.org/ vagrant" and found nothing. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-01-16 02:44, Dan Gora wrote:
I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro. What documentation? Link?
I searched for Vagrant on our wiki and found basically nothing.
I also googled for "site:news.opensuse.org/ vagrant" and found nothing.
https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/archive/15.2/virtualization/html... https://documentation.suse.com/it-it/sles/15-SP2/html/SLES-all/cha-libvirt-m... I guess you're right, these are all old, so I guess the job is done then! -dan
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-01-16 02:44, Dan Gora wrote:
I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro. What documentation? Link?
I searched for Vagrant on our wiki and found basically nothing.
I also googled for "site:news.opensuse.org/ vagrant" and found nothing.
I did look through the release notes for leap 15.4-15.6 and saw no mention that vagrant was being removed as a package. Was it removed in 15.3? -dan
On 2025-01-16 22:57, Dan Gora wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-01-16 02:44, Dan Gora wrote:
I guess you guys should get to work removing all the Vagrant stuff from your documentation since you do not allow the use of Vagrant on your distro. What documentation? Link?
I searched for Vagrant on our wiki and found basically nothing.
I also googled for "site:news.opensuse.org/ vagrant" and found nothing.
I did look through the release notes for leap 15.4-15.6 and saw no mention that vagrant was being removed as a package. Was it removed in 15.3?
I see vagrant available on 15.5 (Version: 2.2.18-bp155.3.46), but 15.5 is EOL. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hi Dan, "Dan Gora" <danubatuba@gmail.com> writes:
Made the gigantic mistake of running 'zypper dup' on Monday Jan 13, 2025 to try to update to the latest kernel, rebooted my machine and now, magically, vagrant is totally missing with no way to get it back.
Who was the genius who thought that removing a major Linux utility and having absolutely no way to replace it was a good idea?
Thank you for the kind words, that genius would have been me. I think others have already laid out the full history here, but let me just add that it stings pretty hard being called all kinds of things here after getting vagrant back into shape in Tumbleweed, maintaining it for years and then having to drop it (because upstream pulled the rug on us). If you ever wonder why no one likes to be an open source maintainer anymore, it's emails like this. Next time, please consider the person on the receiving end.[1]
Well congratulations! Good job! You lost a customer and I'll never come back. I've used SUSE for more than 15 years now as my main work machine and now after spending two days trying to figure out a way to get vagrant back, I've given up. Now I have to waste another day completely reinstalling a new desktop system.
It is absolutely baffling how this could happen. Do you people really think that no one uses Vagrant? You know that none of the repos listed software.opensuse.org that claim to have Vagrant work, don't you?
You know that the binary distro from Hashicorp doesn't work on opensuse because someone borked the ncurses library into separate libraries on tumbleweed, right?
I'm furious about this. I've never seen such an idiotic move by a software company outside of Sun or SCO.
openSUSE Tumbleweed is not developed by SUSE. It might be a shocker, but it's actually a community distribution and the SUSE business exercises very little influence over it. Cheers, Dan Footnotes: [1] obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/481/ -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstr. 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany www.suse.com Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew McDonald, Werner Knoblich (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
Hi Dan, I apologize for the harsh tone and please don't take it personally, but this was really like waking up in the morning and realizing that not only has your girlfriend left, but she took the stereo on the way out. I appreciate all the work you do and I am Suse's #1 fan and have used it since the beginning. I'm writing this from a place of love. By unceremoniously removing a major linux tool, with absolutely no recourse to replace it, with no real notice to the community, you've basically fractured off Suse from the Linux ecosystem. If I cannot rely on any Suse (SLES, OS, tumbleweed, what have you) to be able to run Linux user space applications, then it's not really a Linux distribution anymore. I have absolutely no love for Vagrant. I think it's one of the most badly designed, slowest, annoying tools that I have ever worked with. I think that Hashicorp is the absolute worst. But the fact is that there is no real replacement. If there was some OSS equivalent, I would use it in a heartbeat. They have releases for 7 different OSs, but not for Suse. Why is that? If I had known that there were major problems with supporting it and that there was the possibility that the tool would be removed if a maintainer couldn't be found I would have considered helping out with that too. I've contributed to several open source projects and I'm well aware that it's a thankless, annoying job. I understand the FOSS ethos of "if you don't like it, do it yourself". I'm down with all that. I've done it. But at this point it doesn't matter. I *cannot* use Suse any more because one of the tools that I need for my job does not work at all on it. So now I have to do something that I swore that I would never in my life do... install Ubuntu... *shudder* So is Suse going to discontinue supplying Vagrant boxes for their OSs? Is Suse going to remove Vagrant from all their documentation? These are the implications of the decision to remove Vagrant from the distro. I really think that this is a bad decision and it's not going to do anything to help (open)Suse going forwards. I think that removing a user's software with *no* recourse for replacement when doing a simple upgrade is betraying your user's trust and goes against the Linux ethos (Don't break user space!). It's fine if everyone thinks that I'm an entitled jerk and a moron. That's all true. But now I have to leave and I'm not coming back.
On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 1:13 PM Dan Gora <danubatuba@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dan,
I apologize for the harsh tone and please don't take it personally, but this was really like waking up in the morning and realizing that not only has your girlfriend left, but she took the stereo on the way out.
I appreciate all the work you do and I am Suse's #1 fan and have used it since the beginning. I'm writing this from a place of love.
By unceremoniously removing a major linux tool, with absolutely no recourse to replace it, with no real notice to the community, you've basically fractured off Suse from the Linux ecosystem.
If I cannot rely on any Suse (SLES, OS, tumbleweed, what have you) to be able to run Linux user space applications, then it's not really a Linux distribution anymore.
I have absolutely no love for Vagrant. I think it's one of the most badly designed, slowest, annoying tools that I have ever worked with. I think that Hashicorp is the absolute worst. But the fact is that there is no real replacement. If there was some OSS equivalent, I would use it in a heartbeat. They have releases for 7 different OSs, but not for Suse. Why is that?
If I had known that there were major problems with supporting it and that there was the possibility that the tool would be removed if a maintainer couldn't be found I would have considered helping out with that too. I've contributed to several open source projects and I'm well aware that it's a thankless, annoying job. I understand the FOSS ethos of "if you don't like it, do it yourself". I'm down with all that. I've done it.
But at this point it doesn't matter. I *cannot* use Suse any more because one of the tools that I need for my job does not work at all on it. So now I have to do something that I swore that I would never in my life do...
install Ubuntu...
*shudder*
So is Suse going to discontinue supplying Vagrant boxes for their OSs?
Is Suse going to remove Vagrant from all their documentation?
These are the implications of the decision to remove Vagrant from the distro.
I really think that this is a bad decision and it's not going to do anything to help (open)Suse going forwards. I think that removing a user's software with *no* recourse for replacement when doing a simple upgrade is betraying your user's trust and goes against the Linux ethos (Don't break user space!).
It's fine if everyone thinks that I'm an entitled jerk and a moron. That's all true. But now I have to leave and I'm not coming back.
It's possible that the Fedora/CentOS/RHEL package will work on openSUSE: https://developer.hashicorp.com/vagrant/install?product_intent=vagrant#linux -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
They just give you a repo, so I'll have to spin up a Centos VM and try to download the rpms, but it *might* work, it might not. I haven't tried it yet. I'll give it a go. The binary distribution from Hashicorp does *not* work on opensuse. Something is different with the libncurses library from the system they built it on. It's not dragging in libtinfo.so for some reason: dg => /tmp/vagrant status bash: /tmp/.mount_vagranciY8Sn/usr/lib/libreadline.so.8: no version information available (required by bash) bash: /tmp/.mount_vagranciY8Sn/usr/lib/libreadline.so.8: no version information available (required by bash) bash: /tmp/.mount_vagranciY8Sn/usr/lib/libreadline.so.8: no version information available (required by bash) bash: /tmp/.mount_vagranciY8Sn/usr/lib/libreadline.so.8: no version information available (required by bash) bash: symbol lookup error: /tmp/.mount_vagranciY8Sn/usr/lib/libreadline.so.8: undefined symbol: UP I was so desperate that I even tried running vagrant in a centos docker container. It kind of works, but it still doesn't play well with the host system and networking doesn't work right with bridged network interfaces. -dan
In the end this did work. Thank goodness. The RHEL binaries are statically linked and the rpm includes all the necessary ruby gems so everything is just tucked away into /opt/vagrant for no mess. You do need to figure out the download link though which I guess you can only do on a Red hat clone or something that has yum so that you can see the exact file that needs to be downloaded. For 2.4.3 its: https://rpm.releases.hashicorp.com/RHEL/9/x86_64/stable/vagrant-2.4.3-1.x86_...
On Thu Jan 16, 2025 at 7:13 PM CET, Dan Gora wrote:
If I cannot rely on any Suse (SLES, OS, tumbleweed, what have you) to be able to run Linux user space applications, then it's not really a Linux distribution anymore.
You cannot rely on any Linux distribution to carry Vagrant for you in this moment. Matěj -- http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@en.osm.town GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 England is governed not by logic but by parliament. -- Benjamin Disraeli
On Thursday 2025-01-16 02:07, Dan Gora wrote:
Made the gigantic mistake of running 'zypper dup' on Monday Jan 13, 2025 to try to update to the latest kernel, rebooted my machine and now, magically, vagrant is totally missing with no way to get it back.
RTFP? read the fine print that zypper prints before buying?
Well congratulations! Good job! You lost a customer and I'll never come back.
Not that we have _any_ customers (in the economic sense) to begin with, as there is no exchange of goods within one transaction (such as the act of obtaining TW).
Hello Vagrant has been a problem for quite some time at least on Leap. To give you an example we haven't really found people to work on Vagrant for Leap 15 post 15.3, when Dan told me that he no longer has capacity for it. There was a recent work on Leap Micro vagrant images by individuals, which was quite surprising. If you expect something to work and your business depends and you don't want to pay for support, don't just rely on the community, consider getting involved more closely, providing early feedback and contributing. You'd get better insight and overall better experience. Cheers Lubos On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 11:52 AM Jan Engelhardt <ej@inai.de> wrote:
On Thursday 2025-01-16 02:07, Dan Gora wrote:
Made the gigantic mistake of running 'zypper dup' on Monday Jan 13, 2025 to try to update to the latest kernel, rebooted my machine and now, magically, vagrant is totally missing with no way to get it back.
RTFP?
read the fine print that zypper prints before buying?
Well congratulations! Good job! You lost a customer and I'll never come back.
Not that we have _any_ customers (in the economic sense) to begin with, as there is no exchange of goods within one transaction (such as the act of obtaining TW).
-- Best regards Luboš Kocman openSUSE Leap Release Manager
Lubos Kocman wrote:
Hello
Vagrant has been a problem for quite some time at least on Leap. To give you an example we haven't really found people to work on Vagrant for Leap 15 post 15.3, when Dan told me that he no longer has capacity for it. There was a recent work on Leap Micro vagrant images by individuals, which was quite surprising.
If you expect something to work and your business depends and you don't want to pay for support, don't just rely on the community, consider getting involved more closely, providing early feedback and contributing.
This is not a matter of wanting to pay for support or not. It's a matter of trust. When a distro removes a major linux application, with *no* recourse to replace it, it makes it difficult to believe that I will be able to rely on that distro in the future. Why should I think that you're going to continue to support llvm or gcc in the future for that matter? Those are both very difficult to manage projects. Is there some risk that I'm going to wake up tomorrow, do 'zypper dup' and suddenly I don't have a compiler any more? That there's no way to install one? If I had a time machine I probably would go back and get more closely involved and provide early feedback, but the fact of the matter is that I don't subscribe to all the mailing lists of the internal development of all the distros that I use. There is not enough hours in the day for that. I understand that Vagrant is a pain and that you don't have a maintainer (at least now I know), but the simple solution, "leave it alone until we can find a maintainer" would have been a million times better than just unceremoniously ripping it out with absolutely no way to install it from other means. It means that Vagrant does not work on OpenSuse at all now. That means that I have to find a new distro to use.
You'd get better insight and overall better experience.
A better experience would be to have vagrant still installed on my system after doing 'zypper dup'. That would have been great. Cheers! dan
On Thu Jan 16, 2025 at 7:24 PM CET, Dan Gora wrote:
When a distro removes a major linux application, with *no* recourse to replace it, it makes it difficult to believe that I will be able to rely on that distro in the future.
If you want to have 100% certainity that some package will be present, then the only way is to pay for it. You can help a lot by helping with maintaining it, some enterprise distribution may maintain for you the old version of Vagrant (I have no idea whether we have it in SLE, or whether it is in RHEL). Otherwise, there is no way how the package without upstream support and, which has stopped being open source, be maintained in volunteer-driven distributions, which follow the law. Of course, there is always a possibility that you (or somebody else) fork the last open source version of Vagrant and maintain it yourself. I am sure many people will be happy with you. Just a brief search on the Internet found me https://www.reddit.com/r/devops/comments/15qt11e/whats_formerly_in_vagrant_i... https://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/16b2iw8/is_there_a_vagrant_fork... unfortunately no forks I know about. Best, Matěj -- http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@en.osm.town GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 Find the dependencies -- and eliminate them. -- according to http://is.gd/oeYpcI the motto of the MS Excel team
Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 16, 2025 at 7:24 PM CET, Dan Gora wrote:
When a distro removes a major linux application, with *no* recourse to replace it, it makes it difficult to believe that I will be able to rely on that distro in the future.
If you want to have 100% certainity that some package will be present, then the only way is to pay for it.
Ok! Who do I make that check out to exactly? :)
You can help a lot by helping with maintaining it, some enterprise distribution may maintain for you the old version of Vagrant (I have no idea whether we have it in SLE, or whether it is in RHEL).
Again, I understand the reasons for not wanting to support newer versions. My beef is with the way the old version, which was perfectly fine in Oct 2024, was removed without any real advance notice and no recourse for installing via other means.
Otherwise, there is no way how the package without upstream support and, which has stopped being open source, be maintained in volunteer-driven distributions, which follow the law.
This is not really all that clear to me. Why would it be illegal for suse to have a version but perfectly fine for there to be RHEL, Ubuntu and Homebrew(!) versions? Of course INAL but it's not all that clear to me that BUSL means that it would be illegal to have an opensuse RPM. Was this the opinion of the lawyers at (open)Suse?
Of course, there is always a possibility that you (or somebody else) fork the last open source version of Vagrant and maintain it yourself. I am sure many people will be happy with you.
haha! Don't threaten me with a good time! :P This whole episode and just the general lousiness of Vagrant is making me seriously want to come up with something as an alternative. -dan
16.01.2025 22:14, Dan Gora wrote:
the old version, which was perfectly fine in Oct 2024, was removed without any real advance notice and no recourse for installing via other means.
You are welcome to fix building and install it from https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Virtualization:vagrant/vagrant
Thanks! I'll get right on that! Right after I install a different OS so that I can install an opensuse VM using vagrant! -dan
But seriously if I could get the old rpms and sources I probably would work on providing a community package for it. I use it that much. I would invest the time to maintain it. -dan
On Thu Jan 16, 2025 at 8:16 PM CET, Dan Gora wrote:
Ok! Who do I make that check out to exactly? :)
It is not my place to suggest, but look around there are plenty of organizations on the Internet providing support for various programs.
My beef is with the way the old version, which was perfectly fine in Oct 2024, ...
No, it wasn’t, read Dan Čermák’s and other messages in this thread, where it was explained.
This is not really all that clear to me. Why would it be illegal for suse to have a version but perfectly fine for there to be RHEL, Ubuntu and Homebrew(!) versions?
Not strictly illegal, but it would break our rules that openSUSE contains only FLOSS software (for example https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:License, or read the one for Fedora at https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/legal/license-approval/ or the most famous of these definitions for Debian https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines) If you have the latest non-free version in RHEL or Debian (aka Ubuntu), let me know, I have time to believe that. I know nothing about Homebrew and their community guidelines.
This whole episode and just the general lousiness of Vagrant is making me seriously want to come up with something as an alternative.
Go ahead and make your day! Best, Matěj -- http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@en.osm.town GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 When you’re happy that cut and paste actually works I think it’s a sign you’ve been using X-Windows for too long. -- from /. discussion on poor integration between KDE and GNOME
Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 16, 2025 at 8:16 PM CET, Dan Gora wrote:
Ok! Who do I make that check out to exactly? :) It is not my place to suggest, but look around there are plenty of organizations on the Internet providing support for various programs. My beef is with the way the old version, which was perfectly fine in Oct 2024, ... No, it wasn’t, read Dan Čermák’s and other messages in this thread, where it was explained.
Well it was fine in the sense that it existed and worked, which is really all I need.
This is not really all that clear to me. Why would it be illegal for suse to have a version but perfectly fine for there to be RHEL, Ubuntu and Homebrew(!) versions? Not strictly illegal, but it would break our rules that openSUSE contains only FLOSS software (for example https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:License, or read the one for Fedora at https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/legal/license-approval/ or the most famous of these definitions for Debian https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines)
If you have the latest non-free version in RHEL or Debian (aka Ubuntu), let me know, I have time to believe that.
They are available directly on hashicorp's website: https://developer.hashicorp.com/vagrant/install?product_intent=vagrant I have no idea why they don't provide a SLES/opensuse release. The binary release doesn't work on opensuse due to the problem with libncurses as described above.
I know nothing about Homebrew and their community guidelines.
Turns out that homebrew is not a distro, but a package manager like snap. Unfortunately it just provides the binary vagrant which doesn't work on opensuse. -dan
Am 17.01.25 um 00:27 schrieb Dan Gora:
They are available directly on hashicorp's website:
That's not "in any linux distribution". It's like you (probably) can download vmware.rpm from vmware, but it is in not in any linux distribution. Complain to hashicorp that they don't provide vagrant for your favorite distribution, not to the volunteers maintaining that distro for you. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
17 Jan 2025 15:42:13 Dan Gora <danubatuba@gmail.com>:
Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 16, 2025 at 8:16 PM CET, Dan Gora wrote:
Ok! Who do I make that check out to exactly? :) It is not my place to suggest, but look around there are plenty of organizations on the Internet providing support for various programs. My beef is with the way the old version, which was perfectly fine in Oct 2024, ... No, it wasn’t, read Dan Čermák’s and other messages in this thread, where it was explained.
Well it was fine in the sense that it existed and worked, which is really all I need.
This is not really all that clear to me. Why would it be illegal for suse to have a version but perfectly fine for there to be RHEL, Ubuntu and Homebrew(!) versions? Not strictly illegal, but it would break our rules that openSUSE contains only FLOSS software (for example https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:License, or read the one for Fedora at https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/legal/license-approval/ or the most famous of these definitions for Debian https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines)
If you have the latest non-free version in RHEL or Debian (aka Ubuntu), let me know, I have time to believe that.
They are available directly on hashicorp's website:
https://developer.hashicorp.com/vagrant/install?product_intent=vagrant
I have no idea why they don't provide a SLES/opensuse release. The binary release doesn't work on opensuse due to the problem with libncurses as described above.
I know nothing about Homebrew and their community guidelines.
Turns out that homebrew is not a distro, but a package manager like snap. Unfortunately it just provides the binary vagrant which doesn't work on opensuse.
-dan
Homebrew is a package manager that bundles all librairies along, without disturbing the system (which is why it is so much used on Macs) I haven't used Vagrant in a while, but when I had to I used the homebrew version and it did work on TW just fine Regards
On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 9:42 PM Matěj Cepl <mcepl@cepl.eu> wrote:
Otherwise, there is no way how the package without upstream support and, which has stopped being open source, be maintained in volunteer-driven distributions, which follow the law.
IANAL, but openSUSE does have non-oss section and it does not look like Hashicorp BUSL prohibits redistribution of the vagrant, even modified. So, it is /probably/ possible to offer the upstream version via non-oss repository.
Am 16.01.25 um 19:21 schrieb Dan Gora:
Lubos Kocman wrote:
A better experience would be to have vagrant still installed on my system after doing 'zypper dup'. That would have been great.
even if i do not understand why you blame other people for your problems, i understand your frustration. i have faced in the past some times also the problem that a software disappears with no info on tumbleweed (or i do not read the info's somewhere inside the mailing lists) much better would be that the software would be staying on your system and a warning would be shown when updating "these software will be deleted with no replace because of the dependency" or something like that. but i guess for this "feature" you need somebody who will implement this for the updates. - if you are able to do, do it, i would be happy. simoN -- www.becherer.de
Simon Becherer wrote:
Am 16.01.25 um 19:21 schrieb Dan Gora:
Lubos Kocman wrote:
A better experience would be to have vagrant still installed on my system after doing 'zypper dup'. That would have been great. even if i do not understand why you blame other people for your problems, i understand your frustration.
Well who exactly should I be blaming then? Myself? I didn't remove vagrant from my system. There seems to be two different excuses being used here. 1) We don't have a maintainer for Vagrant and Dan doesn't have time. Fine. This has a solution. Start a fund raiser, post a notice on the front page of opensuse.org asking for volunteers, etc.. Someone could also work with Hashicorp to get them to support an "official" rpm distributed through them. It's not clear why opensuse is left out of their releases. Also leaving the package alone doesn't really require any maintenance. 2) The new BUSL license means that opensuse cannot support Vagrant. This kind of makes sense, but not really considering that they have rpms for every other major distro. Why can there exist rpms for RHEL but not for opensuse? Is it just because the rpms have to come from hashicorp? Because no one wants to sign the contract to assign the copyrights for the work to create the RPM? I honestly don't understand what the issue is there.
i have faced in the past some times also the problem that a software disappears with no info on tumbleweed (or i do not read the info's somewhere inside the mailing lists) much better would be that the software would be staying on your system and a warning would be shown when updating "these software will be deleted with no replace because of the dependency" or something like that.
but i guess for this "feature" you need somebody who will implement this for the updates. - if you are able to do, do it, i would be happy.
Well yeah, I think that the rule should be *don't uninstall peoples software unless told to*. I understand that this is all harder with tumbleweed and the rolling releases, but afaik the only reason that vagrant was removed (as opposed to just being "unmaintained") was that they wanted to "clean up" some of the ruby gems. I think that at a minimum that removing a major, widely used tool like this would necessitate a more formal announcement. As far as this "feature", I think that the package maintainer, when they want to completely remove a package, should include a README in the rpm install of the last version announcing that fact. That would be something that each package maintainer would do a release before removing a package. -dan
"Dan Gora" <danubatuba@gmail.com> writes:
Simon Becherer wrote:
Am 16.01.25 um 19:21 schrieb Dan Gora:
Lubos Kocman wrote:
A better experience would be to have vagrant still installed on my system after doing 'zypper dup'. That would have been great. even if i do not understand why you blame other people for your problems, i understand your frustration.
Well who exactly should I be blaming then? Myself? I didn't remove vagrant from my system.
There seems to be two different excuses being used here.
1) We don't have a maintainer for Vagrant and Dan doesn't have time.
Fine. This has a solution. Start a fund raiser, post a notice on the front page of opensuse.org asking for volunteers, etc..
Someone could also work with Hashicorp to get them to support an "official" rpm distributed through them. It's not clear why opensuse is left out of their releases.
Also leaving the package alone doesn't really require any maintenance.
This is incorrect, you cannot leave anything "alone" in Tumbleweed. Tumbleweed keeps moving forward all the time and if you leave a package alone, it will eventually break. That is *exactly* what happened with vagrant. When I stepped down a year ago, a volunteer stepped up and left the package mostly alone and provided minor fixes. But Tumbleweed moved ahead and a Ruby upgrade broke vagrant completely. Without the ability to pull in upstream fixes and not enough knowledge to fix the issues, the last maintainer saw no other option than to delete vagrant. The problem is as usual the dependency stack, which we *cannot* just leave alone. Otherwise we'll end up with a distro full of ancient and vulnerable packages.
2) The new BUSL license means that opensuse cannot support Vagrant.
This kind of makes sense, but not really considering that they have rpms for every other major distro. Why can there exist rpms for RHEL but not for opensuse? Is it just because the rpms have to come from hashicorp? Because no one wants to sign the contract to assign the copyrights for the work to create the RPM? I honestly don't understand what the issue is there.
Hashicorp doesn't care enough about openSUSE, so they don't build rpms, end of story.
i have faced in the past some times also the problem that a software disappears with no info on tumbleweed (or i do not read the info's somewhere inside the mailing lists) much better would be that the software would be staying on your system and a warning would be shown when updating "these software will be deleted with no replace because of the dependency" or something like that.
but i guess for this "feature" you need somebody who will implement this for the updates. - if you are able to do, do it, i would be happy.
Well yeah, I think that the rule should be *don't uninstall peoples software unless told to*. I understand that this is all harder with tumbleweed and the rolling releases, but afaik the only reason that vagrant was removed (as opposed to just being "unmaintained") was that they wanted to "clean up" some of the ruby gems.
No, vagrant was removed from the distro because it literally stopped working with the recent ruby version.
I think that at a minimum that removing a major, widely used tool like this would necessitate a more formal announcement.
As far as this "feature", I think that the package maintainer, when they want to completely remove a package, should include a README in the rpm install of the last version announcing that fact. That would be something that each package maintainer would do a release before removing a package.
Nice idea, but no one reads these READMEs. If we (package maintainers) had a great way to communicate with our users, we'd have already done that. Also, adding a note to the README is not really an option anymore, if your package stops building and you cannot find a way to fix it. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstr. 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany www.suse.com Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew McDonald, Werner Knoblich (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
16.01.2025 21:56, Simon Becherer wrote:
Am 16.01.25 um 19:21 schrieb Dan Gora:
Lubos Kocman wrote:
A better experience would be to have vagrant still installed on my system after doing 'zypper dup'. That would have been great.
even if i do not understand why you blame other people for your problems, i understand your frustration.
i have faced in the past some times also the problem that a software disappears with no info on tumbleweed
Well, if you insist: /etc/zypp/zypp.conf ... ## ## Whether dist upgrade should remove a products dropped packages. ## ## A new product may suggest a list of old and no longer supported ## packages (dropped packages). Performing a dist upgrade the solver ## may try to delete them, even if they do not cause any dependency ## problem. ## ## Turning this option off, the solver will not try to remove those ## packages unless they actually do cause dependency trouble. You may ## do the cleanup manually, or simply leave them installed as long ## as you don't need the disk space. ## ## Valid values: Boolean ## Default value: true ## # solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Am 23.01.25 um 20:41 schrieb Andrei Borzenkov:
16.01.2025 21:56, Simon Becherer wrote:
Am 16.01.25 um 19:21 schrieb Dan Gora:
Lubos Kocman wrote:
A better experience would be to have vagrant still installed on my system after doing 'zypper dup'. That would have been great.
even if i do not understand why you blame other people for your problems, i understand your frustration.
i have faced in the past some times also the problem that a software disappears with no info on tumbleweed
Well, if you insist:
/etc/zypp/zypp.conf
... ## ## Whether dist upgrade should remove a products dropped packages. ## ## A new product may suggest a list of old and no longer supported ## packages (dropped packages). Performing a dist upgrade the solver ## may try to delete them, even if they do not cause any dependency ## problem. ## ## Turning this option off, the solver will not try to remove those ## packages unless they actually do cause dependency trouble. You may ## do the cleanup manually, or simply leave them installed as long ## as you don't need the disk space. ## ## Valid values: Boolean ## Default value: true ## # solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Oh, never seen this option before, never looked inside zypp.conf, thanks, simoN -- www.becherer.de
Andrei Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com> writes:
16.01.2025 21:56, Simon Becherer wrote:
Am 16.01.25 um 19:21 schrieb Dan Gora:
Lubos Kocman wrote:
A better experience would be to have vagrant still installed on my system after doing 'zypper dup'. That would have been great.
even if i do not understand why you blame other people for your problems, i understand your frustration.
i have faced in the past some times also the problem that a software disappears with no info on tumbleweed
Well, if you insist:
/etc/zypp/zypp.conf
... ## ## Whether dist upgrade should remove a products dropped packages. ## ## A new product may suggest a list of old and no longer supported ## packages (dropped packages). Performing a dist upgrade the solver ## may try to delete them, even if they do not cause any dependency ## problem. ## ## Turning this option off, the solver will not try to remove those ## packages unless they actually do cause dependency trouble. You may ## do the cleanup manually, or simply leave them installed as long ## as you don't need the disk space. ## ## Valid values: Boolean ## Default value: true ## # solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Please don't do this. Packages get dropped for good reasons and keeping them around will inadvertently come back to bite you. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstr. 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany www.suse.com Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew McDonald, Werner Knoblich (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`). Best, Matěj -- http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@en.osm.town GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 To err is human, to purr feline.
Am 24.01.25 um 10:28 schrieb Matěj Cepl:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
Best,
Matěj
thanks for the warning, the problem in tumbleweed is, that if you dup, the package is gone, and you do mostly not recognice it before, and if the dup ist not in a short interval, even with tumbleweed cli there is no cance to get back. simoN -- HINWEIS: Wenn Sie diese "reintext" Mail mit Outlook oeffnen kann es sein, dass Outlook diese Mail nicht korrekt formatiert anzeigt. Das ist ein Fehler oder eine Misskonfiguration in Outlook. Informieren Sie ihren Systemadministrator. (von "Wenn... bis ... Systemadministrator." sind es 6 Zeilen.) (Zeilenumbruchzeichen ist HEX 0A) ========== B e c h e r e r GmbH Sondermaschinenbau Mauermattenstrasse 22 79183 Waldkirch Germany Tel.: (+49) (0)7681 3134 Fax: (+49) (0)7681 4378 Mail: info@becherer.de Web: www.becherer.de USt-ID-Nr.: DE 814912198 Registergericht: Freiburg HRB 701860 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Dipl.-Ing. (FH), EWE Simon H. Becherer Gerichtsstand / Sitz: Waldkirch Es gelten ausschliesslich unsere allgemeinen Liefer- und Zahlungsbedingungen / Einkaufsbedingungen: www.becherer.de/AGB
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 11:14:00 +0100, Simon Becherer wrote:
thanks for the warning, the problem in tumbleweed is, that if you dup, the package is gone, and you do mostly not recognice it before, and if the dup ist not in a short interval, even with tumbleweed cli there is no cance to get back.
Well, there is this: https://download.opensuse.org/history/ I wouldn't anything here as a repo, but for finding older versions of individual packages, it might be useful. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On 2025-01-24 10:28, Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
But you also do not want this. You normally want to keep with the updates as they come, till one day you notice something is gone and then you want to lock it, after it is gone. Then you want an historic repo. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am 24.01.25 um 12:55 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2025-01-24 10:28, Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
But you also do not want this. You normally want to keep with the updates as they come, till one day you notice something is gone and then you want to lock it, after it is gone.
Then you want an historic repo.
One, you have snapper for rollback. Two, if you ignore zypper's red infomation before confirming to continue the upgrade"The following N packages are going to be REMOVED:", then you really should not make such a big fuzz about it on this mailinglist. - Ben
On 2025-01-24 14:17, Ben Greiner wrote:
Am 24.01.25 um 12:55 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2025-01-24 10:28, Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
But you also do not want this. You normally want to keep with the updates as they come, till one day you notice something is gone and then you want to lock it, after it is gone.
Then you want an historic repo.
One, you have snapper for rollback. Two, if you ignore zypper's red infomation before confirming to continue the upgrade"The following N packages are going to be REMOVED:", then you really should not make such a big fuzz about it on this mailinglist.
I did not make any fuzz. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am 24.01.25 um 14:17 schrieb Ben Greiner:
Am 24.01.25 um 12:55 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2025-01-24 10:28, Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
But you also do not want this. You normally want to keep with the updates as they come, till one day you notice something is gone and then you want to lock it, after it is gone.
Then you want an historic repo.
One, you have snapper for rollback. Two, if you ignore zypper's red infomation before confirming to continue the upgrade"The following N packages are going to be REMOVED:", then you really should not make such a big fuzz about it on this mailinglist.
- Ben
This information "The following N packages are going to be REMOVED:" is often not useful, because often there are packages listed they will be installed in a newer version. so i stopped reading this, because of some thousand packages who will be installed/updated, most cover the removed ones, BUT NOT ALL (and exactly this is the problem), i have not figured out why some packages listed as removed but will be updated, some other will be ONLY removed. example here when i dup at the moment: Die folgenden 4702 Pakete werden aktualisiert: (updated) Die folgenden 52 NEUEN Pakete werden installiert: (new) Die folgenden 282 Pakete werden GELÖSCHT: (deleted) ruby3.3 will "removed" and go to ruby 3.4 python will "removed" 310 but go to 311 but also here, as written before it could be some packages are only removed, and not changed to a newer version for me as a human its nearly impossible to check carefully this long lists and figure out if there is something inside who will not be updated or new installed, only deleted. -> maybe i miss some command, who will automatically show me what is lost for ever. so this command would be very interesting. (pyhton is not lost, its still there in a newer version, so i do not care about this message) last example who hit me was "gutenprint-gimpplugin" tumbleweed cli (history) will bring you only back if you recognize fast enough that a specific software will not run any more / is missing. software which i did use only once a month or even less frequency is lost. simoN -- www.becherer.de
On 1/25/25 2:04 PM, Simon Becherer wrote:
Am 24.01.25 um 14:17 schrieb Ben Greiner:
Am 24.01.25 um 12:55 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2025-01-24 10:28, Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
But you also do not want this. You normally want to keep with the updates as they come, till one day you notice something is gone and then you want to lock it, after it is gone.
Then you want an historic repo.
One, you have snapper for rollback. Two, if you ignore zypper's red infomation before confirming to continue the upgrade"The following N packages are going to be REMOVED:", then you really should not make such a big fuzz about it on this mailinglist.
- Ben
This information "The following N packages are going to be REMOVED:"
is often not useful, because often there are packages listed they will be installed in a newer version. so i stopped reading this, because of some thousand packages who will be installed/updated, most cover the removed ones, BUT NOT ALL (and exactly this is the problem), i have not figured out why some packages listed as removed but will be updated, some other will be ONLY removed.
I agree with this, though I do always check this list of to be removed, and so far have not been bitten. But I think this not very nice for the user. I would like to see a package which the user has explicitly installed which needs to be removed treated like a conflict, and the prompted about how to proceed. It seems to me it IS conflict, between what the user has asked for (and previously received, and probably become used to) and what the repositories can now deliver and the user should be explicitly asked what they want to do. Cheers, Eric
On 2025-01-25 21:54, Eric Schwarzenbach wrote:
I agree with this, though I do always check this list of to be removed, and so far have not been bitten. But I think this not very nice for the user. I would like to see a package which the user has explicitly installed which needs to be removed treated like a conflict, and the prompted about how to proceed. It seems to me it IS conflict, between what the user has asked for (and previously received, and probably become used to) and what the repositories can now deliver and the user should be explicitly asked what they want to do.
This feature existed long ago, maybe before TW existed. The system kept track of what packages had been installed manually and not remove them automatically. I don't remember the details. The feature was removed because it backfired and was hard or imposible to maintain. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 20:04:50 +0100, Simon Becherer wrote:
This information "The following N packages are going to be REMOVED:"
is often not useful, because often there are packages listed they will be installed in a newer version.
There's a big difference between something that's a dependency (like ruby, which you used as an example) and something like vagrant (which is what started this entire firestorm). Sure, if python or ruby gets upgraded, the package naming makes it difficult to tell at a glance because there are a lot of packages being removed and a lot of packages being added. But if something that one depends on daily is being removed (like vagrant)....well, the system told you it was going to remove it. It's worth looking to see if the removal is because it's being upgraded/ replaced, or if it's been deprecated. It's then up to the user who's dependent on the package to actually read the information being provided, and if they're not sure, to stop the installation and dig a little further before proceeding. And I would say that if you find a situation like the one you described, just saying "yes" blindly because "it's too much work" means that ultimately, the user who chose to move forward is responsible for the consequences of their actions. If one ignores a warning, one doesn't get to assign blame. Does that mean the warning cannot be improved? Of course not. But "The following packages are going to be REMOVED" in red letters on the screen stands out. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On 1/24/25 6:55 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-01-24 10:28, Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
But you also do not want this. You normally want to keep with the updates as they come, till one day you notice something is gone and then you want to lock it, after it is gone.
Then you want an historic repo.
Or you could do a zypper rollback to prior snapshot where it was still installed, add the lock, and then do the zypper dup again. -- Regards, Joe
On 2025-01-24 16:26, Joe Salmeri wrote:
On 1/24/25 6:55 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-01-24 10:28, Matěj Cepl wrote:
On Thu Jan 23, 2025 at 8:42 PM CET, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
# solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages = true ...
Fiddling with this option is a vary bad idea. As Dan said, packages get removed for a good reason. Much better is to put a lock on the package you want to preserve (`sudo zypper al --help`).
But you also do not want this. You normally want to keep with the updates as they come, till one day you notice something is gone and then you want to lock it, after it is gone.
Then you want an historic repo.
Or you could do a zypper rollback to prior snapshot where it was still installed, add the lock, and then do the zypper dup again.
There is a version of Tumbleweed that updates more slowly and keeps a limited history of releases. I don't remember the name. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 21:21:38 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
There is a version of Tumbleweed that updates more slowly and keeps a limited history of releases. I don't remember the name.
Are you thinking of Slowroll? -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On 2025-01-25 02:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 21:21:38 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
There is a version of Tumbleweed that updates more slowly and keeps a limited history of releases. I don't remember the name.
Are you thinking of Slowroll?
Hum, I realized after posting that Slowroll could be it, but no, I was thinking of another name. Some volunteer thing outside of openSUSE. The idea was not slow rolling, but taking photos of the repos periodically, and keeping several photos back, so that if you update one day, a month later you still can add packages from the same snapshot. If it still exists. :-? Going to bed here. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Op zaterdag 25 januari 2025 03:08:34 Midden-Europese standaardtijd schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 2025-01-25 02:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 21:21:38 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
There is a version of Tumbleweed that updates more slowly and keeps a limited history of releases. I don't remember the name.
Are you thinking of Slowroll?
Hum, I realized after posting that Slowroll could be it, but no, I was thinking of another name. Some volunteer thing outside of openSUSE.
The idea was not slow rolling, but taking photos of the repos periodically, and keeping several photos back, so that if you update one day, a month later you still can add packages from the same snapshot.
If it still exists. :-?
Going to bed here.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
You're talking about tumbleweed-cli. AFAICS -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team openSUSE Mods Team
On 2025-01-25 03:14, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op zaterdag 25 januari 2025 03:08:34 Midden-Europese standaardtijd schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 2025-01-25 02:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
...
You're talking about tumbleweed-cli. AFAICS
YES! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Il giorno 16 gen 2025, alle ore 19:24, Dan Gora <danubatuba@gmail.com> ha scritto:
I understand that Vagrant is a pain and that you don't have a maintainer (at least now I know), but the simple solution, "leave it alone until we can find a maintainer" would have been a million times better than just unceremoniously ripping it out
It’s literally what happened. Vagrant was there, working, until one day it didn’t anymore. Also, Virtualbox’ maintainer *literally died* some time ago. And both these project have (justified, in the case of Virtualbox) intricacies that don’t just allow for a random person to fill in as a maintainer without a degree of friction. I do understand your frustration. I do even understand that you are in the end providing feedback. What I don’t understand is the denial phase that every user goes through every freaking time they discover the chronic lack of man power needed for projects like openSUSE to thrive. We need a hand here. At least please don’t throw rocks :-) Alessio
So in the end the RHEL RPM packages *do* work on tumbleweed. The RHEL RPMs use a statically linked vagrant binary instead of the dynamically linked one, which doesn't work, available as the "binary download" from Hashicorp. All the ruby gems are included in the RPM and everything is installed under /opt/vagrant so it doesn't interfere with anything else. You do need to figure out the direct download link to the RPM however since the webpage only gives you a yum repo. Maybe someone at (open)Suse can sweet talk Hashicorp into providing a zypper repo which points to the same RPMs as the RHEL distros so that it can be downloaded on suse more easily. Here's the direct download link for the vagrant 2.4.3 RPM: https://rpm.releases.hashicorp.com/RHEL/9/x86_64/stable/vagrant-2.4.3-1.x86_... -dan
Am 17.01.25 um 22:11 schrieb Dan Gora:
You do need to figure out the direct download link to the RPM however since the webpage only gives you a yum repo.
which, with some minor massaging ($releasever...), will most likely work just fine as a zypper repo...
Maybe someone at (open)Suse can sweet talk Hashicorp into providing a zypper repo which points to the same RPMs as the RHEL distros so that it can be downloaded on suse more easily.
As you are until now apparently the only one violently and in a very rude manner demanding vagrant availability on openSUSE Tumbleweed, this is your place to step in: swwt talk Hashicorp to whatever you want. After looking at how politely you started this discussion, I am not expecting anyone around here willing to do you any favour ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
I was able to add that repo, install vagrant and at least get no error when calling the binary. I never used vagrant though, so I didn't perform any further tests. I added a plugin for opi so that you could simply install it on openSUSE using "opi vagrant". https://github.com/openSUSE/opi/pull/193 Am 18.01.25 um 09:47 schrieb Stefan Seyfried via openSUSE Factory:
Am 17.01.25 um 22:11 schrieb Dan Gora:
You do need to figure out the direct download link to the RPM however since the webpage only gives you a yum repo.
which, with some minor massaging ($releasever...), will most likely work just fine as a zypper repo...
Maybe someone at (open)Suse can sweet talk Hashicorp into providing a zypper repo which points to the same RPMs as the RHEL distros so that it can be downloaded on suse more easily.
As you are until now apparently the only one violently and in a very rude manner demanding vagrant availability on openSUSE Tumbleweed, this is your place to step in: swwt talk Hashicorp to whatever you want.
After looking at how politely you started this discussion, I am not expecting anyone around here willing to do you any favour ;-)
You should now be able to install vagrant (from the hashicorp repo) on opensuse using "opi vagrant". Feel free to test. Am 16.01.25 um 02:07 schrieb Dan Gora:
Made the gigantic mistake of running 'zypper dup' on Monday Jan 13, 2025 to try to update to the latest kernel, rebooted my machine and now, magically, vagrant is totally missing with no way to get it back.
Who was the genius who thought that removing a major Linux utility and having absolutely no way to replace it was a good idea?
Well congratulations! Good job! You lost a customer and I'll never come back. I've used SUSE for more than 15 years now as my main work machine and now after spending two days trying to figure out a way to get vagrant back, I've given up. Now I have to waste another day completely reinstalling a new desktop system.
It is absolutely baffling how this could happen. Do you people really think that no one uses Vagrant? You know that none of the repos listed software.opensuse.org that claim to have Vagrant work, don't you?
You know that the binary distro from Hashicorp doesn't work on opensuse because someone borked the ncurses library into separate libraries on tumbleweed, right?
I'm furious about this. I've never seen such an idiotic move by a software company outside of Sun or SCO.
Awesome distro! Great job!
participants (20)
-
-pj -
Alessio Biancalana -
Andrei Borzenkov -
Ben Greiner -
Carlos E. R. -
Dan Gora -
Dan Čermák -
Dominik Heidler -
Eric Schwarzenbach -
Eyad Issa -
Jan Engelhardt -
Jim Henderson -
Joe Salmeri -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Lubos Kocman -
Matěj Cepl -
Neal Gompa -
Nicolas Formichella -
Simon Becherer -
Stefan Seyfried