Am 31.07.2018 um 19:42 schrieb Ronan Chagas:

It is very difficult to search for a message (if you did not archive everything, then you must rely on the on-line database), if you delete a message, reply to that thread is not very straightforward, etc.

[…]

discourse (http://discourse.julialang.org). It turn out that it is very good. In my opinion, much better than mailing lists using e-mails.

So you're proposing an online database as replacement for some online database? ;-) More seriously: I just don't get what's wrong with mailing lists. Every time I tried Discourse I got lost with it's overloaded and bloated UI. Too many buttons, smilies, BB code and stuff. Maybe I'm getting too old for such things... That said, if there's real demand for some web-based clicky interface I'd like to point out Hyperkitty from Fedora: http://hyperkitty.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/ Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Em 31 de jul de 2018, à(s) 14:55, Vinzenz Vietzke escreveu:

So you're proposing an online database as replacement for some online database? ;-)

More or less :D But one with much better / modern functions.

More seriously: I just don't get what's wrong with mailing lists. Every time I tried Discourse I got lost with it's overloaded and bloated UI. Too many buttons, smilies, BB code and stuff. Maybe I'm getting too old for such things...

That said, if there's real demand for some web-based clicky interface I'd like to point out Hyperkitty from Fedora: http://hyperkitty.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/

This is very nice! In this case, you can still use e-mail or the on-line interface right? Cheers, Ronan

Contra: e-mail / mailing-lists are easy to archive and to search through. Please show how to archive a "discourse" or other forum / chat platform, how easy can you search through older messages, even with complex search terms ?

It is archived in the server (why should we also have a local archive?) and the search function is pretty complete (at least in discourse). Cheers, Ronan

Op dinsdag 31 juli 2018 20:08:01 CEST schreef Ronan Chagas:

...

Em 31 de jul de 2018, à(s) 15:05, Knurpht-openSUSE escreveu:

I tend to see discourse not as a mailing lists replacement, rather a forums replacement, and from that perspective I only see replacement of one database by another. At the board f2f we talked about Matrix, which can be accessed in multiple ways.

This kind of solution should be very nice! Is there any planning about using something like that?

Cheers, Ronan The Board launched the idea at oSC18 and IIRC I read something in the ML from someone having set up a matrix server. But these things take some time, hardware, and a team to do it.

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/31/2018 08:05 PM, Ronan Chagas wrote:

...

Contra: e-mail / mailing-lists are easy to archive and to search through. Please show how to archive a "discourse" or other forum / chat platform, how easy can you search through older messages, even with complex search terms ?

It is archived in the server (why should we also have a local archive?) and the search function is pretty complete (at least in discourse).

Mailing lists get archived since decades in well-known file formats. I really wonder how long those tools survive and when's the next data migration project no-one has time for. Ciao, Michael.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On Tue, 2018-07-31 at 15:05 -0300, Ronan Chagas wrote:

...

Contra: e-mail / mailing-lists are easy to archive and to search through. Please show how to archive a "discourse" or other forum / chat platform, how easy can you search through older messages, even with complex search terms ?

It is archived in the server (why should we also have a local archive?) and the search function is pretty complete (at least in discourse).

The openSUSE mailing lists are archived and available [1]. Although they aren't very searchable. E.g. attempt at searching for this thread yields no results [2].

Cheers, Ronan

[1] https://lists.opensuse.org [2] https://lists.opensuse.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?query=%22modern+platform%22&metaname=subject&list=all&subject=&from=&xtime=&ytime=&timeframe=&size=10 Cheers, - -- Sean Marlow Public Cloud Developer sean.marlow@suse.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEqA16xWoe2L38VgYCJ30GzZDdUEsFAltgqXgACgkQJ30GzZDd UEvMoA/9EGuf9/6Wve1AwbToJw6EdUlu7UZIze8cYsSctHGO3MShOIxkDH7WDe2z d5kyd4/VZZ+usnPKthbDaCNu/5jSwWElkz1AI6wY4T9pMz3+gIUxIQudHscvxC3k o27rdbdGIg38+rHm9fP7ImbcCq+91dIs+Fnm/Zc/hbFgStAsxZyGFMjzaEJZohZG 1+PQCnNiCk1YJB0M2OXRk4ZrOXuJk4jcDYXKJ44Lhqy6Yt8lAoIxi2uM/pMM/B3T Zmf9jTeguQJTRrdtZosCegZBsdB8Y1ZwN3TCkJwxrUZPz3ZHJOY1I7M5fxZblmQB 7tiJeZVe+GbVFpYoswXR8N4v0fwq8IvAfSvJ7J9OLCKTLHATp+FuD3Al9dGCowC5 hrQsZwfFQOgtrdqTNgMpO+cHsuAXls37HTeIgKku9yBswRuWHSJEM2Raix1Mw/ni OYRs1POx2CtmffibuyE2b7TELRgxFtZDZPPhVVGHnxLJL4y3H1JUN9PG8RcsZY5V +lpZQP3Uw2tgq8SalwiepzL2vImvT5zbv/YcoVjZZiVNgHoh68fuoU5e022keVqa hM11wiZ/kOUIx5olypRXeMuDiQIzaCWeVh5ahWauZqP17/Wej6nrKkDEySfF02Hm fggUobqA6KQjqR6hucCUeJ77PRmV0fK6xbFPdaU56uP4CsPKGxA= =6Tft -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 31/07/18 02:18 PM, Michael Ströder wrote:

Especially I like that e-mails can be written while being off-line and sent later.

Yes, there is that!

...

Every time I tried Discourse I got lost with it's overloaded and bloated UI. Too many buttons, smilies, BB code and stuff. Maybe I'm getting too old for such things...

We're on the same page.

OUCH! You could have worded that differently :-)

Looking at all these "modern" bloat communication tools I really wonder why we gave up news servers. But yeah, this reveals: I'm old too.

Yes, C-News really was an incredible tool. It's a pity all the public services side got 'hijacked' by infantile trolling. I've known a few companies that still make use of 'news' servers internally to very good effect. Easily accessible with lightweight tools such as e-mail readers (or even netcat). Yes, another example of how 'push' services end up being superior to web based 'get' services. That being said, just as there are 'webmail' interface for those who won't run a mail server, there are 'webnews' interfaces. I've spoken with a few people who use webmail and they seem very concerned about NOT having their email on their machine, often a phone or table without much store. Although I use a full-blown PC as my primary mail I/F I also use IMAP so that I don't download the messages. Some people don't understand this. -- The most important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the possibility of their ever being supplemented in consequence of new discoveries is exceedingly remote. (1903) -- Albert Abraham Michelson (1852-1931) Quoted by Peter Coveney and Roger Highfield in 'The Arrow of Time', Flamingo, London 1991, p 67. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 31/07/18 02:04 PM, Ronan Chagas wrote:

...

So you're proposing an online database as replacement for some online database? ;-)

More or less :D But one with much better / modern functions.

Like what? Are you talking about full-text indexing? -- The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Tue, 31 Jul 2018, Ronan Chagas wrote:

openSUSE has many mailing lists and some are very active. I, as a developer, must follow some to make sure I did not miss an important news. However, IMHO, mailing lists through e-mails are not that good anymore. It is very difficult to search for a message (if you did not archive everything,

And where's the problem with that? I have the suse-linux-en/opensuse list archived since about 1999. Taking a whopping ~200 MiB gzipped (and I've not even pruned attachements). All perfectly searchable for whatnot criteria with e.g. mutt. Or indexable if I'd wanted to. And opensuse-factory takes (uncompressed and un"archived") since 2009 a staggering 423 MiB... That's a size I just start to begin to think about archiving (and compressing) some years "out of that folder"... If the MLs are not good enough for you as they are, how about just getting a decent Mail-Client or just use forums.opensuse.org. Oh, and have you tried your proposal for the lkml too, yet? No? Why? Simple: Most so called "modern" platforms suck planetary-sized dungheaps through buckytubes. By the metric buttload. Have you not ever wondered why lkml and suchlike "still" use MLs? How to you filter a forum or whatnot? How do you read and search and whatnot one _offline_? With any device? If you can't handle (filter/sort) your mail, that's your problem. Get a real MUA and stop whining. HTH, HAND, -dn'node.js anyone?'h -- panic("This never returns"); linux-2.6.6/kernel/power/swsusp.c -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Tue, 31 Jul 2018, Sean Marlow wrote:

On Tue, 2018-07-31 at 15:05 -0300, Ronan Chagas wrote:

...

...

Contra: e-mail / mailing-lists are easy to archive and to search through. Please show how to archive a "discourse" or other forum / chat platform, how easy can you search through older messages, even with complex search terms ?

It is archived in the server (why should we also have a local archive?)

So, you've never have had a link / archive / whatever go dead on you? You must be _really_ young. There's _TOOLS_ for checking for dead links on webpages! Why'd you think they were written?

...

and the search function is pretty complete (at least in discourse).

The openSUSE mailing lists are archived and available [1].

Although they aren't very searchable.

E.g. attempt at searching for this thread yields no results [2].

There's a) e.g. google, b) other, better searchable archives of this list. And a local archive is easy. You can even download the archived stuff from the ML-server, IIRC, and then search locally. -dnh -- I got an expresso maker at orkplace. Expresso maker is deemed too complex by all but me & PFY. All expresso maker are belong to us. :) Caffeine is good. Bzzzzzzzzz.... -- Mike Raeder in asr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Em 31 de jul de 2018, à(s) 16:07, Anton Aylward escreveu:

Please stop cc'ing me personally. I subscribe to the list. That is adequate.

Sorry, you did not set the Reply-To field.

On 31/07/18 02:48 PM, Ronan Chagas wrote:

There are a number of replies to that. The fist is about POLICY. We have a policy not to use attachments. That is both limiting and liberating. It means you can't mail-bomb user on the list who aren't interested in that specific thread. It also mean you have a wide range of means of showing your code elsewhere.

Mail-bomb is not a concern in a modern communication platform :D

The second is that "real time" is a variable concept[1]. I regularly make use of IM which CAN have a turnaround of second IF AND ONLY IF the other party is up and ready. Heck, on that basis I've had 'real time' conversations across the Atlantic by email. Back in 1989. […]

[1] I make this point a many of use have built 'real time' process control where the response has to be not just in milliseconds or better, but is also strictly bound in that the response MUST occur within the stated time. Think avionic control at Mach 5. Think the speed controlling the magnets on the CERN ring.

Seriously? Oh boy, I am done.

On 31/07/18 03:15 PM, Ronan Chagas wrote:

...

Em 31 de jul de 2018, à(s) 16:07, Anton Aylward escreveu:

Please stop cc'ing me personally. I subscribe to the list. That is adequate.

Sorry, you did not set the Reply-To field.

Irrelevant. See list policy. Other people make use of the "Reply to list" button on the mail reader. Each message has information in the headers saying that its from a list and should reply to the list. Other people find that suffices. YOU are quite SPECIFICALLY making use of 'reply to all' or editing the 'to' and/or 'cc fields. -- One trend that bothers me is the glorification of stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's all right not to know anything. That to me is far more dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. - Carl Sagan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Vinzenz Vietzke composed on 2018-07-31 19:55 (UTC+0200):

schrieb Ronan Chagas:

...

It is very difficult to search for a message (if you did not archive everything, then you must rely on the on-line database), if you delete a message, reply to that thread is not very straightforward, etc.

...

discourse (http://discourse.julialang.org). It turn out that it is very good. In my opinion, much better than mailing lists using e-mails.

So much "better" that my involvement in fostering mozilla.org products dropped by at least half. I _had_ several mozilla.org mailing list subscriptions that I was more than just nominally active in. Discourse is like most of the web, hard to use, designed by juvenile brains for juvenile eyes.

More seriously: I just don't get what's wrong with mailing lists. Every time I tried Discourse I got lost with it's overloaded and bloated UI. Too many buttons, smilies, BB code and stuff. Maybe I'm getting too old for such things...

meetoo

That said, if there's real demand for some web-based clicky interface I'd like to point out Hyperkitty from Fedora: http://hyperkitty.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/

Same class as Discourse, scripts hiding content, nothing to see without annoying scripts enabled, distracting subtopics (most recent, most active, most popular, statistics) hiding basics (columns: by date, by author, by thread, mbox), and gray on gray mousetype surrounded by copious whitespace. I had a dozen fedora mailing list subs before Hyperkitty, now one. One advantage for me and mine, is it cut my time involved in Fedora by at least half, so more time to spend making user styles for opensuse.org work better if nothing else. Newer != better. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op dinsdag 31 juli 2018 21:40:11 CEST schreef Vinzenz Vietzke:

Am 31.07.2018 um 20:08 schrieb Ronan Chagas:

...

...

At the board f2f we talked about Matrix, which can be accessed in multiple ways.

This kind of solution should be very nice! Is there any planning about using something like that? There are a few Matrix channels around but very low traffic: https://matrix.to/#/+opensuse:matrix.org

Regards, vinz. Thanks, I'll have a look, curious. The least I can say is that these channels currently aren't mentioned on o.o

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 31.07.2018 um 21:56 schrieb Knurpht-openSUSE:

Thanks, I'll have a look, curious. The least I can say is that these channels currently aren't mentioned on o.o

In my understand they're just for testing Matrix "in the wild" before pushing it towards a broader use in openSUSE. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 3:41 PM Felix Miata wrote:

Vinzenz Vietzke composed on 2018-07-31 19:55 (UTC+0200):

...

schrieb Ronan Chagas:

...

...

It is very difficult to search for a message (if you did not archive everything, then you must rely on the on-line database), if you delete a message, reply to that thread is not very straightforward, etc.

...

...

discourse (http://discourse.julialang.org). It turn out that it is very good. In my opinion, much better than mailing lists using e-mails.

So much "better" that my involvement in fostering mozilla.org products dropped by at least half. I _had_ several mozilla.org mailing list subscriptions that I was more than just nominally active in.

Discourse is like most of the web, hard to use, designed by juvenile brains for juvenile eyes.

...

More seriously: I just don't get what's wrong with mailing lists. Every time I tried Discourse I got lost with it's overloaded and bloated UI. Too many buttons, smilies, BB code and stuff. Maybe I'm getting too old for such things...

meetoo

...

That said, if there's real demand for some web-based clicky interface I'd like to point out Hyperkitty from Fedora: http://hyperkitty.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/

Same class as Discourse, scripts hiding content, nothing to see without annoying scripts enabled, distracting subtopics (most recent, most active, most popular, statistics) hiding basics (columns: by date, by author, by thread, mbox), and gray on gray mousetype surrounded by copious whitespace. I had a dozen fedora mailing list subs before Hyperkitty, now one.

One advantage for me and mine, is it cut my time involved in Fedora by at least half, so more time to spend making user styles for opensuse.org work better if nothing else.

But you can certainly choose to avoid it. I don't use HyperKitty very much for my Fedora ML interactions, but it's certainly nice having SSO for managing my MLs. People who like that model can certainly use it. And in the end, it's still email. I don't know if it's possible, but it might be possible to simultaneously have a Pipermail frontend for browsing, if desired. It's all Mailman in the end. I would love if the openSUSE mailing lists moved to Mailman+HyperKitty+Postorius. It's a way nicer experience over mlmmj (which frustrates me to no end). -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/08/18 05:44, Michael Ströder wrote:

On 07/31/2018 09:40 PM, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:

...

Am 31.07.2018 um 20:08 schrieb Ronan Chagas:

...

...

At the board f2f we talked about Matrix, which can be accessed in multiple ways. This kind of solution should be very nice! Is there any planning about using something like that?

There are a few Matrix channels around but very low traffic: https://matrix.to/#/+opensuse:matrix.org

It's super-slow to even get to the first page!

I won't waste my time following others' messages there.

Ciao, Michael.

This is one of the main problems with the main shared hosted matrix server, if we were to consider using matrix through more of the project we would likely want to host our own server which should be much faster, for one our server likely wouldn't be mirroring all of freenode like the one we are currently connecting to does. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 5:16:57 PM CDT, David Haller wrote: Hello,

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018, Ronan Chagas wrote:

...

...

Em 31 de jul de 2018, à(s) 15:54, David Haller escreveu: [..] If you can't handle (filter/sort) your mail, that's your problem. Get a real MUA and stop whining.

I am just amazed how friendly this community turned out to be to discuss a simple **PROPOSAL**. This reminds me the old days of another distro I used to help that starts with G. Too bad...

*Boohoo* If you can't handle mail, you're wrong on an ML. Deal with it. Unsubscribe and use the forums. Simple as that.

I can guess why the distro starting with G was NOT FOR YOU.

This is the -factory list. You claim to be a developer. But you can't handle your mail?? -ENOPARSE

Think again: there's the forums, the ML... Think about why one is there or the other or both.

E.g. myself, I've posted well over 10k mails on the MLs, but exacly 0 posts in the forums. Guess why. And you "proposing" to switch the MLs to some "modern" "web-based" "platform" ("AI" anyone?) [1], how neat and shiny it may be... That is so silly, boy oh boy! Why are the MLs still there when there's the forums? Eh? Guess?? I already mentioned the lkml. And how "huge" my local ML archive is. You can download the list archive as mbox files too ...

Oh, and just for the record, compare the size of mutt + $EDITOR vs. some recent webbrowser with JS and a login and X and whatnot that's required, and running scripts from a ton of sites tracking us...

Guess what, the most notorious sites resolve to NXDOMAIN here.

And BTW: I _am_ quite friendly. To whom *I* chose to.

PS: mutt compiles in a minute or two, FF/Chromium (and all that "slim" ones using their engines) take 6-8+ HOURS to compile... Chromium is one big fat bastard of code cobbled together... And don't get me started on their "build-systems"... Wolfgang, I feel with you!

-dnh, who feels lovingly embraced at that distro that starts with G ;)

[1] Buzzword overload! *BINGO*

Dude, what in the actual flip is this? This is not the kind of nonsense that I subscribe to this mailing list for. Go be an elitist somewhere else please. Back on topic, I 100% agree with the OP. Mailing lists are not friendly to new comers at all. I personally wouldn't even try to keep up with the mailing lists if it wasn't for the RSS feed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I think if https://lists.opensuse.org was more like https://lists.fedoraproject.org, we would have a nice compromise between sticking to a mailing list and something that feels like a modern forum. On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 6:48 PM, cunix wrote:

Ronan Chagas: [...]

...

It is archived in the server (why should we also have a local archive?) [...] Why not?

A local archive works for clients offline, if the server is down or its provider vanished, can be filtered, annotated or searched without disclosing to anyone what you're ignoring or interested in.

cunix -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 31/07/18 02:05 PM, Ronan Chagas wrote:

why should we also have a local archive?

... for some value of 'local' ... As in a nice big server under my desk with nice big multi-Tera high speed RAID as a file server that can be accessed not just over in-house Ethernet and in-house wifi by NFS and CIFS, but also running Owncloud and having an firewalled internet connection for my laptop, phone and tablet to get at not just the files but a number of services. What do YOU mean by 'local', Kimosabe? -- "How well we communicate is determined not by how well we say things but by how well we are understood." -- Andrew S. Grove. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/31/2018 12:42 PM, Ronan Chagas wrote:

I am wondering why do we not change to a more modern platform created with this kind of discussion in mind?

When the Navy stop building battleships, we can move to something other than a mailing list. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

Michal Kubecek composed on 2018-08-01 07:48 (UTC+0200):

I would even dare to estimate that while such step might gain more people that it would lose, it would probably mean losing more of those who are likely to help with a technical problem than it would attract.

My estimation too! Also, s/likely to help/competent to help successfully/. :-) -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-07-31 20:05, Ronan Chagas wrote:

...

Contra: e-mail / mailing-lists are easy to archive and to search through. Please show how to archive a "discourse" or other forum / chat platform, how easy can you search through older messages, even with complex search terms ?

It is archived in the server (why should we also have a local archive?) and the search function is pretty complete (at least in discourse).

Redundancy. I like to store an archive in my machine. And to save also important posts on another archive. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:48:31 AM CDT, Michal Kubecek wrote: On Wednesday, 1 August 2018 0:46 simonizor wrote:

...

Dude, what in the actual flip is this? This is not the kind of nonsense that I subscribe to this mailing list for. Go be an elitist somewhere else please.

Back on topic, I 100% agree with the OP. Mailing lists are not friendly to new comers at all. I personally wouldn't even try to keep up with the mailing lists if it wasn't for the RSS feed.

David's post may be harsh (and, yes, a bit over the top) but there is simple truth you should think about: it's everyone's choice which forms of communication he or she wants to participate in.

You may consider mailing lists too old school and "unfriendly" and it is perfectly fine if you decide to stay away from them. But you should keep in mind there are people who feel exactly the opposite and who would stay away from Discourse or other "modern patform" should openSUSE decide to abandon mailing lists and move there. And I would even dare to estimate that while such step might gain more people that it would lose, it would probably mean losing more of those who are likely to help with a technical problem than it would attract.

BtW, it's nice that both groups like https://xkcd.com/1782/ even if they disagree about who does it make fun of. :-)

Michal Kubeček

Actually, it's not fine if I stay away from the mailing lists. It's highly recommended that Tumbleweed users follow this list. It's just not a fun time compared to more modern solutions such as Fedora's mailing lists which offer the best of both worlds. Honestly, it's a bit sad to see all of these people here be so stuck in the mud and unwilling to change at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, 1 August 2018 14:56 simonizor wrote:

Honestly, it's a bit sad to see all of these people here be so stuck in the mud and unwilling to change at all.

That's your perception. Mine would rather be "staying on the solid ground and don't want to be drawn into the mud". And that's the problem. Just because you love "modern platforms", it doesn't mean everyone has to. There are people who happily ignore Facebook, Twitter, Viber, WhatsApp or whatever platform is considered cool right now (and going to be "out" in 2-3 years). I joined my first mailing lists in 1993. The technology is still here, still in use and still works nicely. Would you bet on Discourse or whatever "modern platform" you would like us to move to) still being here and popular in 25 years? There still are people who appreciate these values more than being the fashionable platform of the year. I'm not saying you shouldn't move or even that openSUSE community shouldn't (provided you convince enough people to). I'm just warning that if you do, you'll lose some people. I would be one - and from the reactions it seems I wouldn't be the only one. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 01.08.2018 um 15:15 schrieb Michal Kubecek:

On Wednesday, 1 August 2018 14:56 simonizor wrote:

...

Honestly, it's a bit sad to see all of these people here be so stuck in the mud and unwilling to change at all.

That's your perception. Mine would rather be "staying on the solid ground and don't want to be drawn into the mud".

And that's the problem. Just because you love "modern platforms", it doesn't mean everyone has to. There are people who happily ignore Facebook, Twitter, Viber, WhatsApp or whatever platform is considered cool right now (and going to be "out" in 2-3 years).

I am here BECAUSE it IS a mailing-list. if it would be something else, i would not follow it. and correct, i am one of these who "happily ignore facebook, twitter...". in my (private) opinion there is no use, except wasting time. but you are of course free to have another opinion, and use all of them if you like. simoN -- www.becherer.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 31/07/18 10:51 PM, Peter Linnell wrote:

Moreover, no one has shown me technically and socially where the big jumps in functionality outshine good old IRC or nntp or mail lists.

+1 -- "How well we communicate is determined not by how well we say things but by how well we are understood." -- Andrew S. Grove. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/08/18 10:26 AM, Simon Becherer wrote:

I am here BECAUSE it IS a mailing-list. if it would be something else, i would not follow it.

+1

and correct, i am one of these who "happily ignore facebook, twitter...". in my (private) opinion there is no use, except wasting time. but you are of course free to have another opinion, and use all of them if you like.

Yes, as an alternative to push systems like ML these are time-suckers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 4:08:00 PM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 01/08/18 10:26 AM, Simon Becherer wrote: I am here BECAUSE it IS a mailing-list. if it would be something else, i would not follow it.

+1

...

and correct, i am one of these who "happily ignore facebook, twitter...". in my (private) opinion there is no use, except wasting time. but you are of course free to have another opinion, and use all of them if you like.

Yes, as an alternative to push systems like ML these are time-suckers.

Honestly, it's pretty annoying how y'all are dragging your feet here. We could very easily set up something like a Matrix channel and have a bot post the RSS feed from the mailing lists there. This would let people choose which platform they want to follow. It doesn't have to end up with your precious mailing list going away. Compromise is a thing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 6:39:21 PM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 01/08/18 06:15 PM, simonizor wrote: We could very easily set up something like a Matrix channel

Who is this "we", Kimosabe?

I take it that you are volunteering your time and skill?

I actually have something like this running on a Discord server of mine right now. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/08/18 07:42 PM, simonizor wrote:

...

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 6:39:21 PM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 01/08/18 06:15 PM, simonizor wrote: We could very easily set up something like a Matrix channel

Who is this "we", Kimosabe?

I take it that you are volunteering your time and skill?

I actually have something like this running on a Discord server of mine right now.

Are you offering to put it up as an O.O project? -- Business folks don't "respect" the technical folks because they think that the technical folks don't understand the "business" as well as the business folks do. Which might be true. But I am willing to bet that the technical folks understand the business a little better than the business folks understand the technology. -- Darko Gavrilovic, 18th August, 2008 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/08/18 09:47, simonizor wrote:

...

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 7:08:49 PM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 01/08/18 07:42 PM, simonizor wrote:

...

... I actually have something like this running on a Discord server of mine right now. ...

Are you offering to put it up as an O.O project?

It would be relatively simple for me to do so.  I'd just have to look into how Matrix's API works and convert the webhooks for Discord -> Matrix.

We also have an official discord so you could also create a channel there, discord is far more active then the matrix server atm. We already have one channel collecting social media posts there (I know you know that exists because I saw you talking there this morning but others may not know) -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Ludwig Nussel composed on 2018-08-02 09:58 (UTC+0200):

This hyperkitty looks quite cool, who can make it happen? :-)

For Fedora at least, its looks and scripts get in the way of function. People shouldn't need a bloated, script-supported browser to access a mailing list archive. Without scripts, and ignoring the impediment that is its low contrast, there's nothing useful to see on https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org/ http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/hyperkitty201808.jpg Sad, very sad. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:58 AM Ludwig Nussel wrote:

hellcp@opensuse.org wrote:

...

W dniu wto, 31 lip 2018 o 19∶42 użytkownik Ronan Chagas napisał:

...

[...]

openSUSE has many mailing lists and some are very active. I, as a developer, must follow some to make sure I did not miss an important news. However, IMHO, mailing lists through e-mails are not that good anymore. It is very difficult to search for a message (if you did not archive everything, then you must rely on the on-line database), if you delete a message, reply to that thread is not very straightforward, etc.

[...] For some nicer frontend for mailing list look at Fedora's hyperkitty [1], frontend for mailman. That would be a way better solution than this. Most importantly, don't cut off common Stallman (or Stallman in general) from engaging in ml conversations.

Obviously the way openSUSE lists are handled is from the last century. Outright intimidating not only for newcomers to our community. This hyperkitty looks quite cool, who can make it happen? :-)

I'd be willing to help with such a thing, even though I have little idea how right now. :) -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/08/18 04:27 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

People shouldn't need a bloated, script-supported browser to access a mailing list archive.

Back in the last century, say the early to mid 1980s, when we were living with 300 baud modems, UUCP, and leased lines were for corporate and university budgets (since even Bill Gates wasn't rich back then) sizeable mail attachments were frowned upon. many of us on the UUCP network ran leading edge equipment with 5 or 10Megabytes drives so sending the contents of the OS/2 installation floppies as email attachments (as one person I knew did) though a bang-path was considered not just unsociable but downright malevolent. So we figured out how to do things with smaller messages, and many of us retail that attitude today. using text-mail and not HTML-mail; using out of band stores for images and code extracts or non-trivial size. We also figured out how to do things like managing and accessing archives, accessing indexes and retrieving specific past messages. All via text messaging. (I'll grant you many ML handers have committed these capabilities and some implementations have it turned off. YMMV.) Before we get into an argument about "yes it used to be but we changed all that" and now you are high speed, high capacity cable, let me remind you that we have many people who read the list via and other lists via mobile devices. We pay for bandwidth; we pay HEAVILY for bandwidth and have ridiculously caps. Yes, I know, many mail user interfaces on portable devices default to HTML. This is an evil conspiracy to make unaware end users consume more bandwidth. The wise and wary install a 3rd party mailer that only does or can be configured to it only does text email. (Some well designed web sites recognise access by mobile devices offer lightweight versions of their pages that omit the sidebars and other decorations.) This list does not, when I see what's offered by the 'help' facility, offer the archive-by-email mechanism. I haven't drilled down to see why, but we might ask to make it available. You try: http://mlmmj.org/ see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_archiving#Litigation_and_legal_discovery <quote> With today’s legal discovery rules (....) and compliance legislations, it has become necessary for IT departments to centrally manage and archive their organization’s email, *so email can be searched and found in minutes; not days or weeks*. </quote> (My emphasis added. FOSS also needs to comply with this if it is to stay competitive.) Perhaps openSUSE need to use a different, more capable, ML server or to extend the plugins available so as to offer better better mail based archive access. -- You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious, nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave. -- Sydney Smith -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 7:46:15 AM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 02/08/18 03:58 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Obviously the way openSUSE lists are handled is from the last century.

Yes. A lot of technologies are. There's a 'if it works and three's nothing better that's economical' then why change.

...

Outright intimidating not only for newcomers to our community.

Since when is the simplicity of plain text 'intimidating'? It's not slow loading. It doesn't have lots of eye candy. It doesn't vary from browser to browsers. It doesn't consume prodigious bandwidth on mobile devices.

...

This hyperkitty looks quite cool, who can make it happen? :-)

Ah "Cool". Yes the ultimate criteria for selection of a product.

Gee, what an indictment!

Having to subscribe to a mailing list and use an email client to interact with a group is pretty offputting for quite a few people. It's very intimidating to try and enter this sort of discussion as it feels much different than what people, for the most part, are used to. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-08-02 15:06, simonizor wrote:

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 7:46:15 AM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 02/08/18 03:58 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Obviously the way openSUSE lists are handled is from the last century.

Yes.  A lot of technologies are. There's a 'if it works and three's nothing better that's economical' then why change.

...

Outright intimidating not only for newcomers to our community.

Since when is  the simplicity of plain text 'intimidating'? It's not slow loading.  It doesn't have lots of eye candy. It doesn't vary from browser to browsers. It doesn't consume prodigious bandwidth on mobile devices.

...

This hyperkitty looks quite cool, who can make it happen? :-)

Ah "Cool".  Yes the ultimate criteria for selection of a product.

Gee, what an indictment!

Another plus side about using a more modern platform would be easier to moderate.

That's a downside to me. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 02/08/18 22:31, simonizor wrote:

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 7:46:15 AM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 02/08/18 03:58 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Obviously the way openSUSE lists are handled is from the last century.

Yes.  A lot of technologies are. There's a 'if it works and three's nothing better that's economical' then why change.

...

Outright intimidating not only for newcomers to our community.

Since when is  the simplicity of plain text 'intimidating'? It's not slow loading.  It doesn't have lots of eye candy. It doesn't vary from browser to browsers. It doesn't consume prodigious bandwidth on mobile devices.

...

This hyperkitty looks quite cool, who can make it happen? :-)

Ah "Cool".  Yes the ultimate criteria for selection of a product.

Gee, what an indictment!

Having to subscribe to a mailing list and use an email client to interact with a group is pretty offputting for quite a few people.  It's very intimidating to try and enter this sort of discussion as it feels much different than what people, for the most part, are used to.

Maybe so, but the group of people this email lists is aiming to target, being the core group of openSUSE developers this is something that I hope that they can manage. Obviously this is not as ideal for user support which is why we have forums etc for that. Sure maybe we can make our mailing list system better, but for this list I still think that mailing lists are the best platform. Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 02/08/18 09:01 AM, simonizor wrote:

Having to subscribe to a mailing list and use an email client to interact with a group is pretty offputting for quite a few people. 

That is what logicians and philosophers term "proof by assertion". Actually 'proof by repeated assertion' As in 'if you repeat a lie often enough people come to believe it'. It is commonly used by politicians who rely on people not doing fact checking. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/49/Argument... Firstly ANY kind of discussion list of any non-triviality for developers like this one is going to be restricted and require registration. Some are more restrictive than this: you have to show 'credentials'. And yes I'm on a few "professional" lists like that. No-one objects to that restriction. A list like this naturally demands a similar threshold. An email client is about the simplest user interface going. As you pointed out, they have been around since the last century. heck, email is getting on for 50 years now. Handling email is on par with driving a car in familiarity. As for 'pretty off-putting' interactions, well that's a social aspect, not a technological aspect.

It's very intimidating to try and enter this sort of discussion as it feels much different than what people, for the most part, are used to.

This discussion is intimidating to some? Well that's a social aspect not a technological aspect and is not justification for a web or other UI than a mail UI. Another list I'm on went well until a braggart chose to join for 'self promotion'. Never mind the AUP, he was a braggart and offensives and was soon banned. I say went well' even tough voices were raised over many matters, but it never went personal and anyone using logical fallacies the way you have been doing had the8r arguments eviscerated. The list 'felt' different at different times. So what? -- "Now look," Forrester said patiently, "progress is an outmoded idea. We've got to be in step with the times. We've got to ask ourselves what progress ever did for us." -- Randall Garett, "Pagan Passions", 1959 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 02/08/18 03:58 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Obviously the way openSUSE lists are handled is from the last century.

Yes. A lot of technologies are. There's a 'if it works and three's nothing better that's economical' then why change.

Exactly that's the point. The process to subscribe to mailing lists sucks and our mail archives are crap. Hyperkitty seems to solve both without taking away plain old text email from anyone (including myself!). IIUC it's 'just' a frontend to mailman after all. IOW mailing lists actually continue to be real mailinglists. If Hyperkitty has an interface for users to also write messages to the list (does it?) that would be even better as it can actually enforce at least some basic rules. Ie no HTML, broken threads, improper attachments etc that result from naively using all the wonderful mail clients out there. So if Hyperkitty does what I think it does that is the kind of program that helps the technology we need to be productive to survive. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Neal, On Thu, 02 Aug 2018, 17:06:42 +0200, Neal Gompa wrote:

[...] I _hate_ the experience with the openSUSE mailing lists. It's a pain to navigate, and managing my lists is a frustrating experience.

I'm just curious: what exactly is the reason for your frustrating experience? FWIW, I run my own central e-mail server locally, which queries all my various e-mail accounts using fetchmail, which saves all retrieved e-mail into one mbox folder under /var/{spool/,}mail. I then use fetchmail/procmail with some recipes to retrieve and save the e-mails into a recipe-specific folder. Mutt, Thunderbird, ... all e-mail clients I have ever used can deal with that structure. Not frustrating at all. Cheers. l8er manfred

Michael Ströder composed on 2018-08-02 17:25 (UTC+0200):

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Without scripts, and ignoring the impediment that is its low contrast,

"Low contrast" implies that you're thinking about people with visual impairment.

Not specifically. Not everyone suffering eyestrain is conscious either that it's happening or of its long-term impact on eyesight. Any suffering from excess brightness and/or contrast can use his display controls to turn them down to something less than 100%. For those with the opposite problem, 100% is the upper limit, where they already may be, beyond which they cannot go regardless of need. It's not unusual for displays to ship with brightness and/or contrast set to 100%. This makes them stand out sitting on brightly lit store shelves alongside competitors. Eagle-eyed young web developers, who have already been indoctrinated into thinking meeting ridiculously low WCAG accessibility standards is adequate, who buy cost-rationalized _oversized_ displays, are visually overloaded into into reducing via the CSS they write instead of correctly via their hardware controls. Gray text is just one of multiple web curses that make non-HTML list mail by comparison a pleasure to use. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

simonizor wrote:

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 7:46:15 AM CDT, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 02/08/18 03:58 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Obviously the way openSUSE lists are handled is from the last century.

Yes. A lot of technologies are. There's a 'if it works and three's nothing better that's economical' then why change.

...

Outright intimidating not only for newcomers to our community.

Since when is the simplicity of plain text 'intimidating'? It's not slow loading. It doesn't have lots of eye candy. It doesn't vary from browser to browsers. It doesn't consume prodigious bandwidth on mobile devices.

...

This hyperkitty looks quite cool, who can make it happen? :-)

Ah "Cool". Yes the ultimate criteria for selection of a product.

Gee, what an indictment!

Another plus side about using a more modern platform would be easier to moderate.

We don't currently moderate much, but each mailing list has owners and moderators. Do you find it difficult/cumbersome to do moderation with mlmmj ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (30.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ronan Chagas wrote:

It is very difficult to search for a message (if you did not archive everything, then you must rely on the on-line database),

Currently the openSUSE archive search engine is broken - until we have found someone to fix it or implement another one, google is the way out.

if you delete a message, reply to that thread is not very straightforward, etc.

That sounds like a user-interface problem, not really a reason to change the platform?

I am wondering why do we not change to a more modern platform created with this kind of discussion in mind? In Julia project, they setup a discourse (http://discourse.julialang.org). It turn out that it is very good. In my opinion, much better than mailing lists using e-mails.

As long as I can put all the 40-50 mailing lists I subscribe to into the same interface, I'm all for it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (30.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-08-02 18:13, Felix Miata wrote:

Michael Ströder composed on 2018-08-02 17:25 (UTC+0200):

Gray text is just one of multiple web curses that make non-HTML list mail by comparison a pleasure to use.

Grey text is a pain to read with my good eyes. Some years ago some PDF readers would display the text in grey, and it was a pain. I don't know/remember if it was a choice by the document creators or by the reader creators. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org : Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png List of threads: https://i.imgur.com/DbiFtTL.png It's a lot easier to follow threads when viewing them on https://lists.fedoraproject.org because of the layout: https://i.imgur.com/FpUuQOH.png -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Noah, Thanks for the very good contribution. I couldn’t agree more with your analysis. It is very sad that some people here cannot have a civilized discussion about a suggestion. After all, it is a matter of opinion, not exact science. Cheers, Ronan

Noah Davis composed on 2018-08-02 21:26 (UTC-0400):

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

"Why the width of the whole page?" Easy for you to narrow your browser window width to your personal optimum. Difficult to impossible for anyone who wants or needs it wider to make it so.

Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png

"I really need to click next for each email?" Exactly what I need, no chance to mix up exactly whose message I'm digging for particulars on in a long thread, with each post in its own tab. Yes, it could do better at indicating thread flow.

List of threads: https://i.imgur.com/DbiFtTL.png "Why are there several top level threads for the same conversation? Why no snippet of the first post in the conversation?"

Blame use of broken email clients that discard or otherwise break thread references.

It's a lot easier to follow threads when viewing them on https://lists.fedoraproject.org because of the layout:

https://i.imgur.com/FpUuQOH.png

"Easy to follow..." Not for me. Nothing's easy with gray text, lots of link distractions, and useless white- and gray-space multiplying need to scroll. Where are the links to refer to particular posts hiding there? Where's each poster's time string, so as to know what time of day a poster's clock read? I respond differently as to both content and when I choose to respond according to my perception of the part of the poster's day, early, mid, late. Where are the rest of the headers, so as to possibly be able to determine from where sent? -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Noah Davis composed on 2018-08-02 21:26 (UTC-0400):

...

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

...

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

"Why the width of the whole page?"

Easy for you to narrow your browser window width to your personal optimum.

Difficult to impossible for anyone who wants or needs it wider to make it so.

In what situation would you want the text area to be 13.5 inches (~34cm) wide (assuming a 15 inch laptop)? If you are using a smaller screen than me, you know lots of websites can adapt to your screen size and resolution, right? The reason most people try to limit their lines of code to 80-120 characters is because it improves readability. It makes it easier to see everything and easier to keep my place when I switch to reading something else and go back. The same applies to wrapped text on a web page, which is why most websites have the sense not to make a text area 13.5 inches wide and the reason why it is preferred that you write letters in a portrait layout and not a landscape layout.

...

Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png

"I really need to click next for each email?"

Exactly what I need, no chance to mix up exactly whose message I'm digging for particulars on in a long thread, with each post in its own tab. Yes, it could do better at indicating thread flow.

I'm not trying to antagonize you, but I have no idea how you could mix anything up when the name is right at the top of every email, clearly separated from the body. I get that big changes can lead to confusion and instability, but unless I'm missing something, this concern seems ridiculous.

...

List of threads: https://i.imgur.com/DbiFtTL.png "Why are there several top level threads for the same conversation? Why no snippet of the first post in the conversation?"

Blame use of broken email clients that discard or otherwise break thread references.

But if GMail can keep all these emails sorted under one thread with the correct original poster, why cant lists.opensuse.org do it? As far as I can tell, Fedora doesn't seem to have this problem either.

...

It's a lot easier to follow threads when viewing them on https://lists.fedoraproject.org because of the layout:

...

https://i.imgur.com/FpUuQOH.png

"Easy to follow..."

Not for me. Nothing's easy with gray text, lots of link distractions, and useless white- and gray-space multiplying need to scroll.

Where are the links to refer to particular posts hiding there?

Where's each poster's time string, so as to know what time of day a poster's clock read? I respond differently as to both content and when I choose to respond according to my perception of the part of the poster's day, early, mid, late. Where are the rest of the headers, so as to possibly be able to determine from where sent?

You speak as if we are dealing with proprietary software and this is all it could ever look like. LCP already has a different bootstrap theme that is currently used on our wiki. I can't relate to your issue with the number of links at all. The way I see it, lists.opensuse.org is not better, with all the buttons crammed together in the tiny side bar. lists.opensuse.org has even more useless space. If you hover over the time, you see the sender's time. The chain-link icon under the time gives you the permalink. Perhaps those could be more prominently displayed, but nothing has to be set in stone. Even with those flaws on list.fedoraproject.org, lists.opensuse.org is far worse in its current state. Switching to HyperKitty would be a net positive change for usability in general and would make openSUSE more welcoming to new users who aren't used to the web as it was 15-20 years ago. lists.opensuse.org isn't even that good compared to other websites from that time. Perhaps I should have said it before, but when I say it's easier to follow, I mostly mean the way posts are indented to show who they are replying to or the option to sort replies by date like in GMail and the fact that all posts are laid out in front of me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Noah Davis composed on 2018-08-02 23:19 (UTC-0400):

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Noah Davis composed on 2018-08-02 21:26 (UTC-0400):

...

...

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

...

...

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

...

"Why the width of the whole page?"

...

Easy for you to narrow your browser window width to your personal optimum.

...

Difficult to impossible for anyone who wants or needs it wider to make it so.

In what situation would you want the text area to be 13.5 inches (~34cm) wide (assuming a 15 inch laptop)? If you are using a smaller screen than me, you know lots of websites can adapt to your screen size and resolution, right?

Web stylists do a horrible job trying. They have too much power to control physical sizes instead of being limited to controlling relative proportions. Pixels in the hands of humans are an abomination. Only low level software should have any use for them. People, e.g. app, DE developers and users, should never be exposed to them. This is the root problem with both web design and software design - assumptions on suitable user sizes based on pixels instead of ems.

The reason most people try to limit their lines of code to 80-120 characters is because it improves readability. It makes it easier to see everything and easier to keep my place when I switch to reading something else and go back. The same applies to wrapped text on a web page, which is why most websites have the sense not to make a text area 13.5 inches wide and the reason why it is preferred that you write letters in a portrait layout and not a landscape layout.

You as developer or stylist have no idea whether the window I'm looking at to view that page is fullscreen or not, nor whether it is anywhere near 13.5" wide, nor what effective size the text is, nor what effective size text is optimal to produce those 80 or 120 character long lines. To complicate further, you also have no idea on viewing distance, which plays a dominant role in effective and usable sizes. It could be a projection, or an 84" screen anywhere between a few feet away or 20X that, or an 6" screen 20cm or 100cm away, or any screen size in between, and up to several meters away. Ems, user specified ideal glyph size, as baseline sizing unit, solve that problem where used, but they aren't used enough. Here are two simple web examples where they are, created over a decade ago and not since modified: http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Sites/dlviolin.html http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Sites/Ksc/ It used to be far more common that DE's used pt for sizing, and designers could have some idea of resulting physical sizes, since pt sizing automatically adjusts to logical display density, and can adjust to physical display density as well. Web spec developers, web designers, developers of Mozilla.org products, FOSS office software, GTK, QT, other high profile apps, Apple, and Microsoft don't seem to understand this, with the result that a hodgepodge of extraordinary heroics are now being employed to _try_ to cope with the wide and widening range of display densities that now exist, and too often failing. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/08/18 13:44, Felix Miata wrote:

Noah Davis composed on 2018-08-02 23:19 (UTC-0400):

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

Noah Davis composed on 2018-08-02 21:26 (UTC-0400):

...

...

...

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

...

...

...

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

...

...

"Why the width of the whole page?"

...

...

Easy for you to narrow your browser window width to your personal optimum.

...

...

Difficult to impossible for anyone who wants or needs it wider to make it so.

...

In what situation would you want the text area to be 13.5 inches (~34cm) wide (assuming a 15 inch laptop)? If you are using a smaller screen than me, you know lots of websites can adapt to your screen size and resolution, right?

Web stylists do a horrible job trying. They have too much power to control physical sizes instead of being limited to controlling relative proportions. Pixels in the hands of humans are an abomination. Only low level software should have any use for them. People, e.g. app, DE developers and users, should never be exposed to them.

This is the root problem with both web design and software design - assumptions on suitable user sizes based on pixels instead of ems.

...

The reason most people try to limit their lines of code to 80-120 characters is because it improves readability. It makes it easier to see everything and easier to keep my place when I switch to reading something else and go back. The same applies to wrapped text on a web page, which is why most websites have the sense not to make a text area 13.5 inches wide and the reason why it is preferred that you write letters in a portrait layout and not a landscape layout.

You as developer or stylist have no idea whether the window I'm looking at to view that page is fullscreen or not, nor whether it is anywhere near 13.5" wide, nor what effective size the text is, nor what effective size text is optimal to produce those 80 or 120 character long lines. To complicate further, you also have no idea on viewing distance, which plays a dominant role in effective and usable sizes. It could be a projection, or an 84" screen anywhere between a few feet away or 20X that, or an 6" screen 20cm or 100cm away, or any screen size in between, and up to several meters away.

Ems, user specified ideal glyph size, as baseline sizing unit, solve that problem where used, but they aren't used enough. Here are two simple web examples where they are, created over a decade ago and not since modified:

http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Sites/dlviolin.html http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Sites/Ksc/

It used to be far more common that DE's used pt for sizing, and designers could have some idea of resulting physical sizes, since pt sizing automatically adjusts to logical display density, and can adjust to physical display density as well. Web spec developers, web designers, developers of Mozilla.org products, FOSS office software, GTK, QT, other high profile apps, Apple, and Microsoft don't seem to understand this, with the result that a hodgepodge of extraordinary heroics are now being employed to _try_ to cope with the wide and widening range of display densities that now exist, and too often failing.

Alright I think its probably time to pull this part of the discussion up now. You have gotten into the realms of discussing a bunch of things that we have no control over and are generally not related to openSUSE development. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 21:26:46 -0400, Noah Davis wrote:

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

• Why the whole width? As you mention it, I assume you do not like it. I do. Layout is a personal preference, and I have written proxy filters in the past that remove "width" attributes from html or css to make sections use the whole visible area. (or replace "860px" with "100%") I hate needless whitespace, but even in that sentence, "needless" is subjective. *I* like to have as much possible information in the available display area. I hate it when web-makers decide for me that their page looks better with 15 cm of blank on both sides of the text. User preferences.

Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png

Yes, room for improvement there.

List of threads: https://i.imgur.com/DbiFtTL.png

There are still people who do not know how to use a mailing list, or even how to use mail in the first place. I bet there are even people using mail clients that put the wrong In-Reply-To: or References: headers in the reply. You cannot blame the list for those posts disrupting the flow of the threads. Then there are time-based filters. If you have a thread that spans several weeks/months, and your filter shows only a part of given thread, you will end up with several "top-nodes" in the view. Any other approach would be wrong.

It's a lot easier to follow threads when viewing them on https://lists.fedoraproject.org because of the layout:

https://i.imgur.com/FpUuQOH.png

Yes and no. This has no option to collapse a thread you are mot interested in. I understand that you like it better than the alternative, but using your own mail client on a local archive (or whatever (local) tool you have installed to browse is will immediately solve your issues. Again, it is all about user preferences. Where one sees overview, the other can see bloat. What one perceives as easy to read, someone else will experience that fatiguing and a strain to the eyes. The archives are public. If you download them, store them on your local server, set up all 17 different UI's you prefer over what you complain about and make it public for the list users to visit/view, and collect all the feedback, *then* you might find an approach that will serve the majority better that what currently makes most/many people happy. Just complaining about what is freely available won't change a thing. Ever. This is freetime work. Nobody is willing to set up something completely new if they won't use it themselves. Again, I am under the opinion that most members of this list are open to change, but it should bring improvements and not just a new/cool shiny/bloated javascript-enabled web-face that adds no value for those readers. This means that *if* the public interface to the ML's is to change, it should be very configurable. *very*. So I can set it to use the full width of the available page and you want to see just 4 cm of text. Joe might want sans-serif 12pt justified, where Mary wants serif 9pt green-on-black right-aligned. Should I go on? I don't think so, and I also think that using your own local ML or other tool is *the* solution to solve your grieves. Do you know mairix? -- H.Merijn Brand http://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.29 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and openSUSE http://mirrors.develooper.com/hpux/ http://www.test-smoke.org/ http://qa.perl.org http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/

Am 03.08.2018 um 01:30 schrieb simonizor: [...]

This entire thread servers as a perfect example of why this list is intimidating to new people.

It is not the system, it is the people. Just remove the clutter, and bingo, mailing lists are a pleasure to read. cu Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 03.08.2018 um 08:31 schrieb H.Merijn Brand: [...]

...

The archives are public. If you download them, store them on your local server, set up all 17 different UI's you prefer over what you complain about and make it public for the list users to visit/view, and collect all the feedback, *then* you might find an approach that will serve the majority better that what currently makes most/many people happy.

Just complaining about what is freely available won't change a thing. Ever. This is freetime work. Nobody is willing to set up something completely new if they won't use it themselves.

Exactly. Has one of the proponents of hyperkitty now offered to set up an installation for opensuse.org? (as it can be done in addition to the old interface, users will soon vote with their feet which one they like better)

Can hyperkitty be bolted onto mlmmj (or mailman2) ? I thought hyperkitty was only for mailman3. I'll have to look into it.

...

Again, I am under the opinion that most members of this list are open to change, but it should bring improvements and not just a new/cool shiny/bloated javascript-enabled web-face that adds no value for those readers.

An alternate interface is almost always an improvement, as long as it isn't forced on people. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (28.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Noah Davis wrote:

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png

List of threads: https://i.imgur.com/DbiFtTL.png

I think that thread is displayed quite correctly, there is only one topmost entry, and the follow-ups are displayed in correct order, except that indentation seems to stop at some point. That ought to be easy to fix. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (30.1°C) member, openSUSE Heroes (wearing my mailing list manager's cap). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, August 3, 2018 7:15:14 AM CDT, Per Jessen wrote:

simonizor wrote:

...

These messages look pretty mixed up to me: https://image.ibb.co/kLcrmK/yadshot08_02_18_211858.png

Ignoring the lack of indentation after follow-up level3, I think they're correctly listed.

If that's properly listed, then this is just straight up silly. I can't even click next and go to the *actual* next reply. It takes me to some reply I've already seen 5 times. You guys seem to forget that ***ALL*** Tumbleweed users should be following this list. That becomes a problem when it's not at all intuitive to use for people who are not used to mailing lists... which is (believe it or not) the vast majority of younger people. You guys are basically turning openSUSE into an old boy's club by having ancient tech running something that ***every*** Tumbleweed user should be following. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, August 3, 2018 7:15:14 AM CDT, Per Jessen wrote:

...

simonizor wrote:

...

These messages look pretty mixed up to me: https://image.ibb.co/kLcrmK/yadshot08_02_18_211858.png

Ignoring the lack of indentation after follow-up level3, I think they're correctly listed.

If that's properly listed, then this is just straight up silly. I can't even click next and go to the *actual* next reply. It takes me to some reply I've already seen 5 times.

You guys seem to forget that ***ALL*** Tumbleweed users should be following this list. That becomes a problem when it's not at all intuitive to use for people who are not used to mailing lists... which is (believe it or not) the vast majority of younger people. You guys are basically turning openSUSE into an old boy's club by having ancient tech running something that ***every*** Tumbleweed user should be following. Here's what triggers the storm: "Let's *move* to ..." which implies killing

Op vrijdag 3 augustus 2018 14:28:53 CEST schreef simonizor: the MLs. What we IMNSHO need for 'the youngsters' is an interface to the MLs, where the MLs exist as they are, but are also accessible through f.e. a webinterface. A best of both worlds solution. Fedora's seems to do what's being asked for. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-08-03 03:43, Ronan Chagas wrote:

Hi Noah,

Thanks for the very good contribution.

I couldn’t agree more with your analysis. It is very sad that some people here cannot have a civilized discussion about a suggestion.

You think we are not civilized? I think we are being very civil.

After all, it is a matter of opinion, not exact science.

Well, many people here opine that mail lists are fine :-) Maybe what you find uncivil is that we have such an opinion? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Per Jessen wrote:

Noah Davis wrote:

...

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png

List of threads: https://i.imgur.com/DbiFtTL.png

I think that thread is displayed quite correctly, there is only one topmost entry, and the follow-ups are displayed in correct order, except that indentation seems to stop at some point. That ought to be easy to fix.

By default, mhonarc only indents up until level 3. I'm running a test right now to see if it is easy to change. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (30.8°C) member, openSUSE Heroes (wearing my mailing list manager's cap). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello Anton, On Aug 2 08:46 Anton Aylward wrote (excerpt):

Since when is the simplicity of plain text 'intimidating'? It's not slow loading. It doesn't have lots of eye candy. It doesn't vary from browser to browsers. It doesn't consume prodigious bandwidth on mobile devices.

It seems you could enjoy http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ I know this is the sacrosanct opensuse-factory mailing list - but today is Friday ;-) Have a nice weekend! Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-08-03 13:43, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Noah Davis wrote:

...

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

See https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/4314 and https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/17604

...

Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png

This is generated by some fairly simple script(s) - anyone who would like to improve on it is very welcome to get in touch.

Wouldn't it be easier to migrate to another mail list engine?

Migrating would take much more time and testing. That is why it hasn't happened yet. Besides, migrating to mailman2 does not fix the archives and migrating to e.g. mailman3 is a pretty major upgrade. Fixing the format of the archives is pretty easy, there are templates and such and if you make a mistake, it doesn't break the running of the lists. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (31.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Thu, 02 Aug 2018, Ludwig Nussel wrote: [hyperkitty]

myself!). IIUC it's 'just' a frontend to mailman after all. IOW mailing lists actually continue to be real mailinglists.

Let's see what our then ML-Admin had to say about that a while ago and why the lists are run with mlmmj: ==== Wenn diese Liste über Mailman betrieben würde, dann würden wir den ganzen Tag nichts anderes machen als eine Menschenkette zum nächsten Computerladen aufrechtzuerhalten um RAM in einem konstanten fluss in lists.suse.com einzubauen ;) -- suse-linux-owner, ebenda ==== If this list were run with mailman, we'd have to have a chain-of-people to the next computer-store all day to install a constant stream of RAM into lists.suse.com ;) ==== HTH, -dnh -- (3) With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/03/2018 08:40 PM, David Haller wrote:

Let's see what our then ML-Admin had to say about that a while ago and why the lists are run with mlmmj:

==== Wenn diese Liste über Mailman betrieben würde, dann würden wir den ganzen Tag nichts anderes machen als eine Menschenkette zum nächsten Computerladen aufrechtzuerhalten um RAM in einem konstanten fluss in lists.suse.com einzubauen ;) -- suse-linux-owner, ebenda ==== If this list were run with mailman, we'd have to have a chain-of-people to the next computer-store all day to install a constant stream of RAM into lists.suse.com ;) ====

Could you please elaborate on what "a while ago" really means? I suspect that this statement is really old and I doubt that today you can even buy such a small amount of RAM (minimum needed for mailman) for a server anymore. That does not mean that o.o should blow up all its infrastructure with RAM hogs. But it also does not mean to still run ancient ML software just because it's implemented in C. (BTW: Does mlmmj sill receive good security reviews? Or at least are decent AppArmor profiles in place?) Ciao, Michael.

Hello, On Fri, 03 Aug 2018, Michael Ströder wrote:

On 08/03/2018 08:40 PM, David Haller wrote:

...

Let's see what our then ML-Admin had to say about that a while ago and why the lists are run with mlmmj:

==== Wenn diese Liste über Mailman betrieben würde, dann würden wir den ganzen Tag nichts anderes machen als eine Menschenkette zum nächsten Computerladen aufrechtzuerhalten um RAM in einem konstanten fluss in lists.suse.com einzubauen ;) -- suse-linux-owner, ebenda ==== If this list were run with mailman, we'd have to have a chain-of-people to the next computer-store all day to install a constant stream of RAM into lists.suse.com ;) ====

Could you please elaborate on what "a while ago" really means?

Oh, dunno, it's been quite a while I guess. In the naughties. Probably the first half... ;)

I suspect that this statement is really old and I doubt that today you can even buy such a small amount of RAM (minimum needed for mailman) for a server anymore.

Who was saying anything about the "minimum for mailman"? The list-owner was _quite_ explicit, that mailman was _quite_ fine for small lists, ISTR he even recommended it at times for easy configurability or such. But for a list-setup like at suse, with _that volume_ and number of subscribers (ok, it _was_ about the peak of suse-ML subscribers, usage and volume generally[5]), they really would've needed _oodles_ of RAM, i.e. just about constantly feeding the box(en?) with RAM to keep up with mailmans needs...

That does not mean that o.o should blow up all its infrastructure with RAM hogs. But it also does not mean to still run ancient ML software just because it's implemented in C. (BTW: Does mlmmj sill receive good security reviews? Or at least are decent AppArmor profiles in place?)

No idea about AppArmour[-1] or current mlmmj sec reviews, but, consider, that the switch from ezmlm[0] to mlmmj[1] was not done after very _serious_ considerations. That about fits the timeframe... Mailman _WAS_ considered and (obviously, because of it's need of RAM) rather fast discarded as an alternative... And I very much doubt the actual list-server has anything to do with the "problem", it rather is the WUI (Web-User-Interface) to the _ARCHIVE_ of the list that is the problem. And mlmmj has nothing to do with that. Nor had ezmlm. Actually, the _ARCHIVE_ and it's WUI/search did _NOT_ change from before to after the switch from ezmlm to mlmmj. BTW: Besides googling or so, there's e.g. https://marc.info/?l=opensuse-factory (formerly known as marc.theaimsgroup.com) as an alternative WUI to an alternative archive of this (and many other) lists. Bcc-ing the then list-owner ;) @the-then-list-owner: correct me if I'm wrong, if you prefer via PM to me, I'll keep you Bcc'd if you don't want to actually join this discussion. HTH, -dnh, "Memory fault -- core...uh...um...core... Oh dammit, I forget!" [-1] Bcc-ing the AppArmor guru too [0] run at_least since: ==== Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 19:59:08 +0000 Mailing-List: contact suse-linux-help@suse.com; run by ezmlm ==== Can't find earlier mails ATM without further digging. [1] from opensuse-factory: === Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 22:42:07 +0200 Mailing-List: contact opensuse-factory-help@opensuse.org; run by ezmlm ==== Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:40:42 +0200 Mailing-List: contact opensuse-factory-help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj ==== If it's _THAT_ important, I can dig into my (sadly rather disorganized) local archives a bit more... [5] ISTR 6k+ subs on -de alone, and 100+ mails/day. Even more on -en! (Almost?) didn't "read" -en back then, not sure if subscribed anyway, too much noise, too small SNR... -- Aaaah! I feel insanity approaching. On a Unicycle. Backwards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/08/18 23:26, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello Anton,

On Aug 2 08:46 Anton Aylward wrote (excerpt):

...

Since when is  the simplicity of plain text 'intimidating'? It's not slow loading.  It doesn't have lots of eye candy. It doesn't vary from browser to browsers. It doesn't consume prodigious bandwidth on mobile devices.

It seems you could enjoy

http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/

Love it! :-D

I know this is the sacrosanct opensuse-factory mailing list - but today is Friday ;-)

Have a nice weekend!

Kind Regards Johannes Meixner

BC -- There comes a time in the affairs of a man when he has to take the bull by the tail and face the situation. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michael Strc3b6der wrote:

(BTW: Does mlmmj sill receive good security reviews? Or at least are decent AppArmor profiles in place?)

Dunno about security reviews, but I updated the arrarmor profiles about two years ago: http://apparmor.narkive.com/ygBnmC3x/patch-update-mlmmj-profiles -- Per Jessen, Zürich (28.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Noah Davis wrote:

...

Here are my problems with https://lists.opensuse.org :

Search: https://i.imgur.com/i3E1YAj.png

Viewing a thread: https://i.imgur.com/zpnGrP6.png

List of threads: https://i.imgur.com/DbiFtTL.png

I think that thread is displayed quite correctly, there is only one topmost entry, and the follow-ups are displayed in correct order, except that indentation seems to stop at some point. That ought to be easy to fix.

By default, mhonarc only indents up until level 3. I'm running a test right now to see if it is easy to change.

Finding the right place took a little while, but I've upped the max indentation to 15. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.1°C) member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/08/18 21:58, simonizor wrote:

On Friday, August 3, 2018 7:15:14 AM CDT, Per Jessen wrote:

...

simonizor wrote:

...

These messages look pretty mixed up to me: https://image.ibb.co/kLcrmK/yadshot08_02_18_211858.png

Ignoring the lack of indentation after follow-up level3, I think they're correctly listed.

If that's properly listed, then this is just straight up silly.  I can't even click next and go to the *actual* next reply.  It takes me to some reply I've already seen 5 times.

You guys seem to forget that ***ALL*** Tumbleweed users should be following this list.  That becomes a problem when it's not at all intuitive to use for people who are not used to mailing lists... which is (believe it or not) the vast majority of younger people.  You guys are basically turning openSUSE into an old boy's club by having ancient tech running something that ***every*** Tumbleweed user should be following.

To me it seems like we are trying to squeeze 2 completely different things into one list which is possibly causing much of the tension here. 1. We need a place for openSUSE developers to discuss openSUSE development - A mailing list still seems like the best solution for this to me. Even though the UI for our lists could be improved. 2. A place for tumbleweed users to follow to get updates about , maybe there is a better medium for these announcements, Dimstar generally posts weekly updates for tumbleweed to news.o.o and for most weeks this is probably all most tumbleweed users need most weeks unless something goes exceptionally wrong. The "Tumbleweed users should all subscribe to this list" comes from an older period when tumbleweed was still factory and was mostly just the development branch of openSUSE, at that time pretty much anyone crazy enough to run factory on anything close to production was an openSUSE developer anyway and there was a natural overlap that has probably got smaller over time. Especially given the changes that we have made to the scope of this list in the past months i'm now at the point of questioning whether its worth us suggesting that all tumbleweed users should post to this list given that bugs and issues are not generally being posted here anyway. The one remaining thing going to this list of relevance that can't be found somewhere else is the bot posting the list of packages updated (which only covers DVD packages anyway). So replacing mailing lists for everything is probably not the solution, but maybe someone can come up with a better way of providing info about "Is tumbleweed broken" so general users don't need to follow this list. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 08/06/18 03:38, Simon Lees wrote:

[…] So replacing mailing lists for everything is probably not the solution, but maybe someone can come up with a better way of providing info about "Is tumbleweed broken" so general users don't need to follow this list.

Well, I guess http://review.tumbleweed.boombatower.com/ is trying to achieve that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/08/18 15:17, Oliver Kurz wrote:

"Is tumbleweed broken" so general users don't need to follow this list

 - suspicion:  All would work, "as is" , smoothly , IF  the Factory List 'Professionals'  were a little less Impolite ............. & , put with greater Emphasis : IF list-member mainstays , were able to re-program themselves : IF & WHEN , they see "TW" , bite their finger-nails : Count "FIVE" , swallow a couple of times , and , then , try to be POLITE & Helpful . . . then TW will stuff will work , as intended , with satisfaction all around . .............  regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-08-06 17:04, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 2018-08-05 9:38 p.m., Simon Lees wrote:

...

1. We need a place for openSUSE developers to discuss openSUSE development - A mailing list still seems like the best solution for this to me. Even though the UI for our lists could be improved.

This is email? What's to improve?

He means the web UI. The archive. Possible the subscribe page.

...

2. A place for tumbleweed users to follow to get updates about , maybe there is a better medium for these announcements, Dimstar generally posts weekly updates for tumbleweed to news.o.o and for most weeks this is probably all most tumbleweed users need most weeks unless something goes exceptionally wrong.

Are you proposing an opensuse-tumbleweed@o.o list? Migrate some of the traffic there? How will you draw a distinction between 'development' per development and that TW is the development-driven rolling release?

That's the opensuse-support@os mail list. Or there could be an opensuse-devs@os mail list. :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 06/08/18 21:47, Oliver Kurz wrote:

On 08/06/18 03:38, Simon Lees wrote:

...

[…] So replacing mailing lists for everything is probably not the solution, but maybe someone can come up with a better way of providing info about "Is tumbleweed broken" so general users don't need to follow this list.

Well, I guess http://review.tumbleweed.boombatower.com/ is trying to achieve that.

Yeah I think this is a great first step, so a question could be what do people think is missing here? and should we be working together to make it an official openSUSE project ie under an openSUSE url with a team of people helping to work on it. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B