Le lundi 28 décembre 2009, à 18:15 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :

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Packages that can be removed, but with no replacement =====================================================

Those are all dead upstream.

I forgot to mention: packages which are dead upstream, but where we have a patch to use GTK+ 2.x should probably also be removed, unless someone wants to maintain the upstream project. I'm only aware of gtktalog there. There are some commercial apps that still require gtk1. Games from: http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com/

Il lunedì 28 dicembre 2009, Vincent Untz scrisse: the first that come to my mind.. So, whay don't "dowgrade" to contrib at least for another release (11.3) ? If contrib is not valid solution, a repo in obs might be enough.. Bye. -- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2009-12-29 02:03, Vincent Untz wrote:

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Packages that can be removed, but with no replacement =====================================================

Those are all dead upstream.

I forgot to mention: packages which are dead upstream, but where we have a patch to use GTK+ 2.x should probably also be removed, unless someone wants to maintain the upstream project. I'm only aware of gtktalog there. There are some commercial apps that still require gtk1.

I would expect commercial apps that don't get updated to not link to gtk in a dynamic way, and to have it statically linked instead. If not, then, well, they did it wrong :/

# zypper rm gtk The following packages are going to be REMOVED: gdk-pixbuf gtk gtk-devel icewm-default icewm-theme-icevista imlib xmms xmms-bs2b xmms-lib Not there yet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 29, 3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead? Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am 29.12.2009 08:49, schrieb Peter Nikolic:

On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 03:12:09 Luis Medinas wrote:

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On Tue, 2009-12-29 at 03:34 +0100, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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I would expect commercial apps that don't get updated to not link to gtk in a dynamic way, and to have it statically linked instead. If not, then, well, they did it wrong :/

# zypper rm gtk The following packages are going to be REMOVED: gdk-pixbuf gtk gtk-devel icewm-default icewm-theme-icevista imlib xmms xmms-bs2b xmms-lib

xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it. Also why icewm depends of gtk1.x ? Sounds stupid for me.

XMMS I'll have you know is probably the finest audio playing app Linux has beats the crap out of banshee VLC and the rest

I can remember the last time the gtk1 discussion came up with the same arguments also about xmms. And I still support that. Recently I'm trying to find a good and simple audio player and still XMMS seems to be the best fit. Last discussion nobody was able to point me to a good replacement. (/me knowing that's a little bit off-topic but still it needed to be repeated ;-)) Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2009-12-29 09:00, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

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The following packages are going to be REMOVED: gdk-pixbuf gtk gtk-devel icewm-default icewm-theme-icevista imlib xmms xmms-bs2b xmms-lib

xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it. Also why icewm depends of gtk1.x ? Sounds stupid for me.

XMMS I'll have you know is probably the finest audio playing app Linux has beats the crap out of banshee VLC and the rest

I can remember the last time the gtk1 discussion came up with the same arguments also about xmms. And I still support that. Recently I'm trying to find a good and simple audio player and still XMMS seems to be the best fit. Last discussion nobody was able to point me to a good replacement. (/me knowing that's a little bit off-topic but still it needed to be repeated ;-))

It is proposed by Novell staff[1] that audacious is the "preferred" replacement for xmms. However, I should check where the bug reports [53,54] went before trying to install and run that again. [1] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=219589 [53] http://jira.atheme.org/browse/AUD-53 [54] http://jira.atheme.org/browse/AUD-54 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le mardi 29 décembre 2009, à 03:34 +0100, Jan Engelhardt a écrit :

# zypper rm gtk The following packages are going to be REMOVED: gdk-pixbuf gtk gtk-devel icewm-default icewm-theme-icevista imlib xmms xmms-bs2b xmms-lib

Not there yet.

My original mail was a proposal, highlighting what needs to be done to make this happen. Of course we're not there yet since it was a request for comment. (FWIW, I've started fixing a few packages) As for xmms, all I know is that it's not in the openSUSE repositories. I don't think it makes sense to keep old & unmaintained libraries in the main repositories for packages that live outside... (also, looking at your list, and removing xmms: the only "issue" left is icewm-default, which I discussed in my original mail) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 13:57:34 Luis Medinas wrote:

On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 19:18 -0800, Space Case wrote:

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On Dec 29, 3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

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xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead?

There's tons of decent players, take a look at banshee, rhythmbox, muine, exaile, listen or if you like xmms interface look at audacious.

Luis

I got an even better suggestion stop trying to dis XMMS it is the king of the heap as far as players go . Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 16:05 up 3 days 19:05, 2 users, load average: 0.87, 0.56, 0.42

Il martedì 29 dicembre 2009, Space Case scrisse:

On Dec 29, 3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

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xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead? Try this: http://www.qt-apps.org/content/show.php/Qmmp?content=59218 Bye.

-- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 16:53:52 Petr Baudis wrote:

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 04:05:53PM +0000, Peter Nikolic wrote:

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On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 13:57:34 Luis Medinas wrote:

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On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 19:18 -0800, Space Case wrote:

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On Dec 29, 3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

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xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead?

There's tons of decent players, take a look at banshee, rhythmbox, muine, exaile, listen or if you like xmms interface look at audacious.

Luis

I got an even better suggestion stop trying to dis XMMS it is the king of the heap as far as players go .

But it is not maintained (bugs, even security bugs, are not being fixed) and depends on obsolete libraries that are also not maintained, thus incurring a raising maintenance load.

Petr "Pasky" Baudis But there is nothing to replace it , This security thing is becoming a bit of a nonsense lets face it we are talking about Home systems not top security commercial or government systems here they got SLED and SLES if they are running 11.2 distro then thats their problem .

When there is a decent working replacement for XMMS then all well and good but so far the choices just suck . Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 18:45 up 3 days 21:45, 2 users, load average: 0.22, 0.21, 0.18

On Tue, 2009-12-29 at 18:50 +0000, Peter Nikolic wrote:

But there is nothing to replace it , This security thing is becoming a bit of a nonsense lets face it we are talking about Home systems not top security commercial or government systems here they got SLED and SLES if they are running 11.2 distro then thats their problem .

I would argue against that kind of thinking. Security isn't just about hacks into your server. It's also about vulnerabilities of the desktop. And much of the vulnerability exploits that occur in this world are on home systems. Specifically, Windows home systems that cripple the rest of the world. To forgo such thinking would be to re-introduce home system vulnerability to Linux/openSUSE systems that we've been good at avoiding all along. I would also argue that not all openSUSE installations are home systems. I use a number of openSUSE boxes in business/commercial situations as well. So, we shouldn't limit our thinking of who uses openSUSE. Although, I will grant that the majority of users are likely home users.

When there is a decent working replacement for XMMS then all well and good but so far the choices just suck .

Sometimes, we seem to forget we're in an open source world. If XMMS is a must have, then we have the opportunity to adopt it, fix it, rally support around it to get others to work with it and rebuild the ecosystem around XMMS that seems to have disintegrated. We all say "We gotta <insert what you will>...." but no one ever seems to step up to the plate to make it happen.

Pete .

If XMMS is truly the way to go, then let's roll up our sleeves and make it truly a viable option complete with the fixes it needs that reflect the quality and security considerations that make openSUSE known. -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/12/29 Peter Nikolic :

On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 16:53:52 Petr Baudis wrote:

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On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 04:05:53PM +0000, Peter Nikolic wrote:

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On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 13:57:34 Luis Medinas wrote:

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On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 19:18 -0800, Space Case wrote:

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On Dec 29,  3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

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xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms.  I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'.  What would you suggest instead?

There's tons of decent players, take a look at banshee, rhythmbox, muine, exaile, listen or if you like xmms interface look at audacious.

Luis

I got an even better suggestion stop trying to dis XMMS it is the king of the heap as far as players go .

But it is not maintained (bugs, even security bugs, are not being fixed) and depends on obsolete libraries that are also not maintained, thus incurring a raising maintenance load.

                              Petr "Pasky" Baudis But there is nothing to replace it  , This security thing is becoming a bit of a nonsense  lets face it we are talking about Home systems  not top security commercial or government systems here they got SLED and SLES  if they are running 11.2 distro then thats their problem  .

When there is a decent working replacement for XMMS then all well and good but so far the choices just suck .

Just prove there isn't a decent working replacement for XMMS. Start listing bug reports.. Here the only bug reports seen are the ones from jengelh. - There is problem with XMMS - AUD-53 is a no problem with Audacious. Read the bug report to see the problem is with an specific ALSA driver. - AUD-54 is a problem with the user that fails to install the HTTP Audacious plugin and then complains because Audacious doesn't plays HTTP streams. Yes, I tested it and after installing the audacious-plugins-transport-http package the URL from the bug report just worked. So right now the list of real problems is XMMS: 1 Audacious: 0 Audacious wins... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-12-28 at 19:18 -0800, Space Case wrote:

On Dec 29, 3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

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xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead?

Well, audacious is a modern fork of beep, which was a fork of xmms. And some more, I think. Unless you need some of the propietary plugins, they are fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmms#Forks XMMS has continued to use GTK+ 1.x toolkit, despite a major revision of GTK (2.x) being available for several years. The primary reason for this reluctance to upgrade is that many XMMS plugins (written by third parties) are dependent on the older version of GTK+ to properly function (e.g. about boxes and configuration dialogs). Many software developers also consider the XMMS codebase to be poorly designed and difficult to maintain. These factors led to various forks and related projects: - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAks6hyMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WFqACbBHln3B822Mj03h8FGC0zOrYm PMkAnia1wfVhS/1eDtGWB4iRTNFAUnt9 =x17+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 29, 6:15pm, Daniele wrote:

Il martedì 29 dicembre 2009, Space Case scrisse:

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I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead? Try this: http://www.qt-apps.org/content/show.php/Qmmp?content=59218

Looks promising. Is there a Suse repository that contains that for 11.2 or factory? Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2009-12-30 06:01, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Space Case [12-29-09 22:57]:

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[qmmp] Looks promising. Is there a Suse repository that contains that for 11.2 or factory?

http://software.opensuse.org/search

use the force, Luke.

Except that none you will find there will have audio/mpeg support. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 17:15:17 Daniele wrote:

Il martedì 29 dicembre 2009, Space Case scrisse:

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On Dec 29, 3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

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xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead?

Try this: http://www.qt-apps.org/content/show.php/Qmmp?content=59218 Bye.

Well it's working but now to find out where to put the skins as there is so far Zero documentation that i can find , I got rucks of XMMS skins that it is claimed to be able to use but where to place them the preferences gives no hints no chooser only shows the default Think it still has a long way to go to be an replacement for XMMS Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 14:13 up 4 days 17:13, 3 users, load average: 0.12, 0.08, 0.02

On Wednesday 2009-12-30 13:53, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

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[qmmp] Looks promising.  Is there a Suse repository that contains that for 11.2 or factory?

http://software.opensuse.org/search use the force, Luke.

Except that none you will find there will have audio/mpeg support.

So what? neither has xmms in openSUSE.

So pointing to software.opensuse.org won't be of use. There, I compiled it with mad, ffmpeg and bs2b: http://jftp.medozas.de/SUSE-11.2 Bottom line: It works (contrary to my previous audacious expriences), but is missing some features - like disabling the spectrometer, and changing the font in the playlist. The quest goes on... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 30/12/09 14:16, Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Tuesday 29 Dec 2009 17:15:17 Daniele wrote:

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Il martedì 29 dicembre 2009, Space Case scrisse:

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On Dec 29, 3:12am, Luis Medinas wrote:

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xmms is obsolete and nobody should use it.

I like xmms. I have, in addition to the main window, windows for playlist, equalizer and 'blur scope'. What would you suggest instead?

Try this: http://www.qt-apps.org/content/show.php/Qmmp?content=59218 Bye.

Well it's working but now to find out where to put the skins as there is so far Zero documentation that i can find , I got rucks of XMMS skins that it is claimed to be able to use but where to place them the preferences gives no hints no chooser only shows the default

Think it still has a long way to go to be an replacement for XMMS

Pete .

# l ~/.qmmp total 20 drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 50 2009-12-30 16:40 ./ drwx------ 65 root root 8192 2009-12-30 16:26 ../ -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 134 2009-12-30 16:40 playlist.txt -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 777 2009-12-30 16:40 qmmprc drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 6 2009-12-30 16:26 skins/ I've just been playing an audio/video presentation Intro_to_Beagle_Software_Defined_Radio.flv, no problems, it chose the mplayer plugin. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 30/12/09 11:20, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

Bottom line: It works

Yes, and looks like a suitable replacement for XMMS, Im actually using the RPM you just provided, thanks :) Will be great If packman can ship a subpackage qmmp-restricted or similar though. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 30, 12:01am, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Space Case [12-29-09 22:57]:

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Looks promising. Is there a Suse repository that contains that for 11.2 or factory?

http://software.opensuse.org/search

use the force, Luke.

Cool. Gotta know the force exists before one can use it. ;-) Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 30/12/09 11:20, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

Bottom line: It works

If it happends to support "find song as you type" and CDDB/Freedb/Musicbrainz/whatever thing to tag songs in the future, Im sold, ready to ditch amarok ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le jeudi 07 janvier 2010, à 13:24 +0100, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

Vincent Untz wrote:

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For a while, I've been wondering why we still have glib 1.x and gtk 1.x (as well as some other part of the GNOME 1.x stack). So today I looked at this closely, and I think we can work towards removing those packages.

We still have even older toolkits like motif and xaw3d. Gtk1 was once very popular, there are probably 3rd party tools out there that use it¹.

For motif: - last release of openmotif: 2.3.2, 15/03/2009 - last release of lesstif: 0.95.2, 27/05/2009 For xaw3d: - last release: 1.5E, 17/04/2003 For GTK+ 1.2: - last release: 1.2.10, 04/01/2002 It looks to me like motif is well maintained anyway, so it's not an issue. Xaw3d is not as well maintained, but at least it had a release after the last GTK+ 1.2 release...

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Why should we remove those libraries? Well, they're not maintained upstream, and from a security point of view, this can be quite bad.

Well, what kind of security issues do you expect? Some integer overflows in gdk_pixbuf maybe. Nothing that would be hard nor critical to fix I suppose.

I don't assume anything about potential security issues, except that I doubt anybody from the GNOME team will ever look at them. Keep also in mind that applications (or optional code in applications) using those old libraries are likely to not be maintained by anybody upstream since many years. This means we're supporting stuff with no active upstream, and this is generally a bad idea, imho. Anyway, let's turn the topic another way: the GNOME team will most likely stop supporting glib/gtk 1.x (and other GNOME 1.x stuff) in 11.3. If anybody wants to step up and maintain them, we can make this happen: we will create a devel project in the build service and move everything there. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org