Hello again :P recently I did start a thread with the subject: "Why openSUSE uses KDE by default?" at that time I was *fanboy* of GNOME and GTK, but I thought deeper and understand that GNOME 3 due to its Human Interface Guidlines is really unusable for Desktop, specialy and totall GNOME due to exclusively use of C language
On 04/26/2017 09:07 AM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
Hello again :P recently I did start a thread with the subject: "Why openSUSE uses KDE by default?" at that time I was *fanboy* of GNOME and GTK, but I thought deeper and
Thank you for your expertise.
understand that GNOME 3 due to its Human Interface Guidlines is really unusable for Desktop, specialy and totall GNOME due to exclusively use of C language
Actually Gnome using C is the only real advantage over KDE.
Quoting Linus Torvalds: "C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C." http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
cu, Rudi
On Wednesday, 26 April 2017 9:20 Rüdiger Meier wrote:
Quoting Linus Torvalds: "C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C." http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
One should keep in mind that:
- Linus is not an ultimate source of Undisputable Truth; and even less so when he doesn't talk about kernel - most of the arguments he presents are in fact only valid for kernel development
Personally, I think that the Gtk's heavy use of what I call "poor man's polymorphism" is one of the most illustrative examples showing that there are projects where C++ makes much more sense than C.
Michal Kubeček
On 2017-04-26 09:59, Michal Kubecek wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 April 2017 9:20 Rüdiger Meier wrote:
Quoting Linus Torvalds: "C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C." http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
One should keep in mind that:
- Linus is not an ultimate source of Undisputable Truth; and even
less so when he doesn't talk about kernel
- most of the arguments he presents are in fact only valid for kernel development
Personally, I think that the Gtk's heavy use of what I call "poor man's polymorphism" is one of the most illustrative examples showing that there are projects where C++ makes much more sense than C.
Indeed, and the Linux kernel heavily uses the same so it would surely benefit from using C++ as well?
Except by writing the object support yourself you can tune for the right tradeoff between overhead and abstraction level and ensure that the object system fulfills your requirements and expectations. One of them being it does not change API and ABI every other gcc release.
So GTK made the same choice.
Being low-level framework I think that is a fine choice and one of the few that I think GTK got right. With GTK you get the additional benefit that GTK applications can link with whatever libstdc++ they like when they use C++ themselves because GTK does not use any libstdc++ at all. Yay!
Thanks
Michal
I forget to say one of the reasons I did switch to KDE, is QT, it seems the only real widget tool-kit and application framework that can satisfy both free and proprietary software developers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Proprietary_software_that_uses_Qt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_QML
while GTK is unable to even satisfy the free and *just for fun* software developers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK%2B#Criticismsm
On 04/26/2017 06:47 PM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
I forget to say one of the reasons I did switch to KDE, is QT, it seems the only real widget tool-kit and application framework that can satisfy both free and proprietary software developers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Proprietary_software_that_uses_Qt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_QML
while GTK is unable to even satisfy the free and *just for fun* software developers:
We are getting off topic for the role of this list "Discussing openSUSE development" given the amount of other noise going on atm can we not also have a C / C++ gtk / Qt discussion, its not going to lead to anything.
On 2017-04-26 11:21, Simon Lees wrote:
On 04/26/2017 06:47 PM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
I forget to say one of the reasons I did switch to KDE, is QT, it seems the only real widget tool-kit and application framework that can satisfy both free and proprietary software developers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Proprietary_software_that_uses_Qt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_QML
while GTK is unable to even satisfy the free and *just for fun* software developers:
We are getting off topic for the role of this list "Discussing openSUSE development" given the amount of other noise going on atm can we not also have a C / C++ gtk / Qt discussion, its not going to lead to anything.
I agree completely.
We should stop this thread here.
If anyone wishes to continue, it would be better on the offtopic mail list, methinks.
Sorry, I mistakenly clicked the send button :|
the correct and finall message:
Hello again :P recently I did start a thread with the subject: "Why openSUSE uses KDE by default?" at that time I was *fanboy* of GNOME and GTK, but I thought deeper and understand that GNOME 3 due to its Human Interface Guidlines (HIG) is really unusable for Desktop, specially GNOME shell, and totally GNOME due to exclusively use of C language is always behind KDE, most GNOME applications lacks advanced features and some even basic features, while KDE applications are feature rich. I also think C++ is more suitable for developing application and it is widely used in software industry, just see below categories:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_software_programmed_in_C%2B%2B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:C%2B%2B_software
so I no longer use GNOME and think openSUSE should keep this way.
good luck.
-
Carlos E. R. -
Farhad Mohammadi Majd -
Michal Kubecek -
Michal Suchánek -
Rüdiger Meier -
Simon Lees