On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:24:53AM +0100, Richard Brown wrote:
On 14 February 2018 at 21:48, Michal Kubecek
...and this is another problem. Unnecessarily
strict checks in Factory
enforce new constructions which do not work in older (still supported)
distributions. Results either in unreadable specfiles full of %if's or
in maintainers resigning on building on anything but Factory. Neither
should be considered desirable, AFAICS.
And yet, my recent foray into implementing such checks into Factory
has given me a very different perspective.
Of the 207+ changes needed to get rid of /var/adm/fillup-templates,
the _vast_ majority of the changes were accepted without issue, long
before any such checks were live in Factory.
The rate of acceptance of such changes was much faster than I or
anyone I spoke to beforehand had expected.
There was some modification of my changes to better suit the personal
tastes of how some maintainers wanted their specfiles to look, and
that was absolutely fine - the end result was aligned to what we
collectively needed in Factory.
Alternative explanation: survivorship bias. You chose to only count
people who learned to live with previous annoying checks and for whom
this is only one nuisance in a long row. You ignore those who already
left, you ignore those who might join but won't because of the problem.
It's not meant to provoke. I know real flesh-and-bone people who do not
want to have anything to do with openSUSE package maintenance because of
the problem. I know real people who are happy to polish some package in
their home project but have absolutely no intention to suffer the pain
of getting it into Factory (some even prefer the pain of getting them
into SLE without them being in Factory). And I can't blame them at all.
Quite the opposite, my decision to do otherwise with those few packages
I care for for various reasons is being challenged way too often.
The _only_ packages which were not modified before the
went live all are firmly maintained by people using @suse.* addresses,
who are meant to be doing package maintainer as their everyday job.
The _only_ negative feedback I got complaining about the changes or
checks at all, were from people with @suse.* addresses, who are meant
to be doing package maintainer as their everyday job.
It's hard to believe, given how few SUSE R&D employees have packaging as
their everyday job. (20? Probably not even that.) It seems more likely
that you don't realize what people in R&D are actually doing for their
I, for one, spend perhaps 2-3 per cent of my work time by packaging.
(Funny enough, it could be even less if it wasn't for the continuous
tightening of the screws and new annoying checks.) Across the kernel
teams, I'm pretty sure I'm still safely above average with that.
Yes, even most SUSE employees have to do actual packaging only now and
then (if at all) and even then, it mostly consists of adding a bug fix
or rebasing to a new upstream version which are rather routing tasks.
Or rather this is what it would look like if it wasn't for the problem
we are discussing.
My impression is that if there is a problem anywhere,
it is a small
subset of professionals doing package maintainer as their everyday job
who might need to consider how they could do a better job of keeping
up with their peers, including those volunteers doing this in their
Alternative explanation: SUSE R&D employees are just more likely to be
vocal about the problem. Partly thanks to the fact that for them, you
and the distribution maintainers are "just people", partly because some
of them also maintain those packages in SLE and it's much harder to get
rid of a package there. (Again, I'm assuming, you in fact meant SUSE R&D
employees in general, not only those few who actual have packaging as
their everyday job.)
Please, leave your ivory tower for a moment. Please, stop patting each
other's backs and telling each other how great job you are doing in
improving the distribution. Please, stop for a moment and try to
imagine what it looks like from the point of view of an occasional
package maintainer who cannot and/or does not want to spend half of
their packaging time by making it compliant to your latest whims.
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