On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 8:01 AM Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Monday 2018-05-28 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

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The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other [...]

Rename it to opensuse-devel (carry over all present subscribers)?

I think this is absolutely a solid idea. It makes it clear that this is a development list rather than a general list. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Simon Lees composed on 2018-05-28 22:41 (UTC+0930):

Neal Gompa wrote:

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Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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Rename it to opensuse-devel (carry over all present subscribers)?

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I think this is absolutely a solid idea. It makes it clear that this is a development list rather than a general list.

This was also discussed in our meeting but again we decided against it for now anyway partly because in openSUSE since the dawn of time factory==devel.

Yes, especially now that the -support list exists! -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/05/18 00:20, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 28/05/18 07:51 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

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This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's).

I understand your concern. What you are complaining about is people too lazy or disinclined to use bugzilla to report valid bugs.

However ...

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We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting

Not just on bugzilla but ...

I'm sure there are users less experienced than me who are unsure of themselves and unsure if what they see as something wrong is a bug or their own mistake. The mistake may be wrong assumptions about what is supposed to happen or it may be misconfiguration rather than a bug.

My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.

And perhaps I'm not alone ...

So before reporting to bugzilla I ask on the list "Is this my mistake?"

To date, a better than 90% of the cases has been "MY mistake and guidance, often from people that I don't think would be opensuse-support@o.o. And yes, I've been referred to the kde- list and the btrfs- list and the xfs- list and the people there have always been helpful in telling me what I was doing wrong.

MY opinion is that using bugzilla as a 'first resort' will result in a lot of <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated developers as well as lots of even more <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated users.

Yes, opensuse-support@o.o will work, *IF* you publicise the hell out of it and keep telling people who subscribe, naturally enough, to the main and other lists. Perhaps you need a sign-up notice a monthly notice, such as the sort that Mailman can send, telling users about opensuse-support@o.o and the other lists, kde-, btrfs-, xfs- and so on, and to take specific problems there.

The biggest % of emails we see at the moment in the factory mailing list are along the lines of I did a zypper dup package XYZ broke, these are the sorts of things we would like to see bugs raised for. If you are setting up something for the first time or doing something different are are wondering if the issue is caused by your setup or a bug in the program then opensuse-support@ is the right place to ask your questions. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.

For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEv7/MJoKYXv2p0PaIZJcsjNEnCIUFAlsMMJoACgkQZJcsjNEn CIWIrQf8CQWhnJ0G5mx4QEn/peiTbuM8ptYA2Wz1ODJAUbeQFH6QSp24507RxgT2 XpqMSvMqUlxObMcn5rtLUI0gQm6PHRvIYPvHYoQjxZoxVEPlV1x7E8si2f7M8Hur qXZ5vt8YhYlmZQJwmcd/gQaq2iMdwpy+ghBIZG1OQ4zu4lgrklj14bJ587BebWmH EkHt/p6ysr+hBcgI8OjsCZIrAaHZbfIzufVinfWcfm4fM1hbqroof56+VTKPrbd+ g3CXKkSbgboOR3HNXUsDdHSlwKf0vIjwDCYLhwGngik6LpIruUXKSQSdIMR4GLkl Ti8BZp+NeV+x9I0hpYSRnWlbDgaKQQ== =1Eb/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 28/05/18 01:50 PM, H.Merijn Brand wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2018 11:39:01 -0500, Neil Rickert wrote:

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On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.

For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate.

However I understand the wish from your point of view, I fully feel with Anton. I find that IRC fills the niche between the two but it is not the medium of choice for many

I fend the RSS feel very very frustrating. The list here and the other lists I can use threading, but trying to follow a tread via RSS among many others is frustrating. I'm putting together a reply as to why this list is more importunate to openSUSE and that simply converting it to a -- possibly moderated - support- will be damaging. -- Your skid stops here. (Seen on back of lorry) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-05-29 23:30, Fraser_Bell wrote:

On 05/28/2018 09:39 AM, Neil Rickert wrote:

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On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX.  It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.

For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org).  Quite a few people do that already.  And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is appropriate.

Exactly.  It is a great Forum, with great Volunteer Support, and is Moderated so that the garbage that floods these mail lists tends to be almost totally absent.

Then, it is Ok to post to the web forum asking if something is a bug or an error, but it is not ok to ask the same thing in the mail list? You mean that there is no Wonderful Volunteer Support on the mail list? :-O -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 28/05/18 04:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I know (and you know, Anton) of some people that bluntly refuse to use bugzilla, and nothing will change their thinking ;-)

Indeed, just as some people bluntly refuse to use, say, KDE4 (rather than KDE3) and and nothing will change their thinking I freely admit that I bluntly refuse to use Gnome3 and nothing will change my thinking. I also bluntly refuse to smoke (anything), and a number of other thing sand, guess what? Nothing will change my thinking on those matters. But WTH, some people refuse to use Linux, Mac OSX, ... the list goes on. So we have to drop them from the list? -- Wherever you see a successful business, someone once made a courageous decision. --Peter F. Drucker -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 01.06.2018 15:36, Mykola Krachkovsky wrote:

Slightly related question, what is the best place for minor bug like ask to trigger rebuild of some package (e.g. mysql-workbench) which is currently broken due to dependency update (gdal).

Contact the maintainer of the package. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Jun 10 2018, Achim Gratz wrote:

The unfortunate thing is that this new list is of course not carried on the news.gmane.org NNTP server

Write to admin@gmane.org to ask them to add it. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org