[opensuse-factory] Infinality (or similar software) in openSUSE 13.2
Hello all, First time using a mailing list so forgive me for any problems. I was just wondering if there were any plans to include some improvements (although I guess this is subjective) to the default font rendering in 13.2 by using something like Infinality or similar software. Regards, Alan Bortu -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-04-06 12:09 (GMT-0400) Alan B composed:
I was just wondering if there were any plans to include some improvements (although I guess this is subjective) to the default font rendering in 13.2 by using something like Infinality or similar software.
1-What are your physical display characteristics? 2-Which DE(s) do you use? 3-What fault(s) do you find with existing font rendering? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
op 06-04-14 18:09, Alan B schreef:
Hello all,
First time using a mailing list so forgive me for any problems.
I was just wondering if there were any plans to include some improvements (although I guess this is subjective) to the default font rendering in 13.2 by using something like Infinality or similar software.
Regards, Alan Bortu
You mean something like: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2014-02/msg00319.html Regards, Cor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/06/2014 04:59 PM, Cor Blom wrote:
You mean something like:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2014-02/msg00319.html
Regards,
Cor
Yes, I was basically looking for info on if the font config was going to be changed. And Felix, apologies, I wasn’t subscribed to the ML properly before so I dont know how to reply to your post but I will just quote it here.
1-What are your physical display characteristics?
HP f2105 1680x1050, nvidia 560ti with proprietary drivers
2-Which DE(s) do you use? KDE 4.11.5
3-What fault(s) do you find with existing font rendering? I find it is too "crisp" the letters appear to have jagged edges and its very ugly for letters that have curves in them. In Firefox, its just unusable for me until I get it fixed because I cant stand reading stuff on there until it has some smoothness to it. That is why I installed infinality and it has worked pretty good for me so far.
Again though these are just my opinions and I know lots of people do like the "crisp" style. I just wish the default was a little less "crisp". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 2014-04-06 23:44, Alan B wrote:
3-What fault(s) do you find with existing font rendering? I find it is too "crisp" the letters appear to have jagged edges and its very ugly for letters that have curves in them.
Sounds like antialiasing should be enabled if you do not already have it, does it not?
Again though these are just my opinions and I know lots of people do like the "crisp" style. I just wish the default was a little less "crisp".
A screendump (of that previous state) would be interesting to see. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/06/2014 06:12 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Sunday 2014-04-06 23:44, Alan B wrote:
I find it is too "crisp" the letters appear to have jagged edges and its very ugly for letters that have curves in them. Sounds like antialiasing should be enabled if you do not already have it, does it not? I use infinality now so I don't have issues with this but back when I didn't, I was not able to get the anti-aliasing to do much via kde settings
Again though these are just my opinions and I know lots of people do like the "crisp" style. I just wish the default was a little less "crisp". A screendump (of that previous state) would be interesting to see.
I decided to get a VM running, this is from what I recall a net install of the basic CLI option and then I installed the KDE pattern. This is the result: http://paste.opensuse.org/view/raw/58284567 And this is my current setup as a comparison: http://paste.opensuse.org/view/raw/85968896 I must admit that it doesn’t look as bad in the VM as I remember it did when I first installed 13.1 back in ~January. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2014-04-07 00:41, Alan B wrote:
I find it is too "crisp" the letters appear to have jagged edges and its very ugly for letters that have curves in them.
A screendump (of that previous state) would be interesting to see.
I decided to get a VM running, this is from what I recall a net install of the basic CLI option and then I installed the KDE pattern. This is the result: http://paste.opensuse.org/view/raw/58284567
And this is my current setup as a comparison: http://paste.opensuse.org/view/raw/85968896
What you mean is stroke thickness. "Crisp" is... http://toastytech.com/guis/nt31logocut.gif ;-) Antialias is active in both your shots, so that's good for starters. The details of "subpixel rendering" are described in your standard encyclopedia (like WikiP). Ultimately, whether or not to enable subpixel rendering is a choice, because of the color fringe effect that is noticable on some displays, sharp eyes, and by wearers of glasses who are additionally susceptible to chromatic shifting outside of the centerpoint. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-04-06 17:44 (GMT-0400) Alan B composed:
1-What are your physical display characteristics?
HP f2105 1680x1050, nvidia 560ti with proprietary drivers
94.3 DPI, contemporary standard density class, not at all high except compared to last century's hardware.
2-Which DE(s) do you use?
KDE 4.11.5
3-What fault(s) do you find with existing font rendering?
I find it is too "crisp" the letters appear to have jagged edges and its very ugly for letters that have curves in them. In Firefox, its just unusable for me until I get it fixed because I cant stand reading stuff on there until it has some smoothness to it. That is why I installed infinality and it has worked pretty good for me so far.
Again though these are just my opinions and I know lots of people do like the "crisp" style. I just wish the default was a little less "crisp".
On 2014-04-06 18:41 (GMT-0400) Alan B composed:
I decided to get a VM running, this is from what I recall a net install of the basic CLI option and then I installed the KDE pattern. This is the result: http://paste.opensuse.org/view/raw/58284567
And this is my current setup as a comparison: http://paste.opensuse.org/view/raw/85968896
Given your apparent taste and sensitivity, have you considered upgrading to a higher density display? More px packed into any given physical space does a much better job. With enough px, anti-alias and/or other smoothing techniques aren't at all helpful, much less necessary. Exactly how close are your eyes to your screen? Maybe more separation along with a minor increase in font sizes would dampen out the bother? Here's what it looks like here with a nearly 40% nominal density increase: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/archwikihome-2048x1152x132.png To have a fair idea of what you see being representative of what I see here, you'll need to use a viewer that permits sizing the include one inch block to life size. Without as much density to display it as here, you won't be able to appreciate the real impact of the extra density here. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 05:44:25PM -0400, Alan B wrote:
Again though these are just my opinions and I know lots of people do like the "crisp" style. I just wish the default was a little less "crisp".
13.2 will have the possibility to choose between 'crisp' and 'less crisp' fonts (but more thick), trough sysconfig variables at least (I guess yast module will not be done yet). You can try to use autohinter with hintslight generally for now by <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd"> <fontconfig> <match target="font"> <edit name="autohint" mode="assign"> <bool>true</bool> </edit> <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"> <const>hintslight</const> </edit> </match> </fontconfig> in ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf or /etc/fonts/local.conf. Do not expect subpixel rendering quality infinality setting is based on, we can't use it. Petr
On 04/07/2014 03:05 AM, Petr Gajdos wrote:
On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 05:44:25PM -0400, Alan B wrote:
Again though these are just my opinions and I know lots of people do like the "crisp" style. I just wish the default was a little less "crisp". 13.2 will have the possibility to choose between 'crisp' and 'less crisp' fonts (but more thick), trough sysconfig variables at least (I guess yast module will not be done yet).
Sounds like a plan. Are there plans for a yast module for this for later releases?
Do not expect subpixel rendering quality infinality setting is based on, we can't use it.
Petr
Something to do with patents correct? I have been told by someone on the IRC channel that those have expired or something along those lines. Still I understand wanting to avoid the issues that may come with it and its not like Infinality is difficult to install. Regards, Alan B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 07, 2014 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Alan B wrote:
Sounds like a plan. Are there plans for a yast module for this for later releases?
Yes, I hope.
Something to do with patents correct? I have been told by someone on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering#Patents It is very often confused with bytecode interpreter patent. Petr
On 04/07/2014 08:22 AM, Petr Gajdos wrote:
On Mon, Apr 07, 2014 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Alan B wrote:
Sounds like a plan. Are there plans for a yast module for this for later releases? Yes, I hope.
Something to do with patents correct? I have been told by someone on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering#Patents
It is very often confused with bytecode interpreter patent.
Petr
Ah okay so in 2019 I will be back asking for Infinality ;) Thanks Alan B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering#Patents
It is very often confused with bytecode interpreter patent.
As far as I know, this only affects the colour filter. Sub-pixel rendering itself can't be patented since it is prior art. Werner -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 07, 2014 at 07:56:34PM +0200, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering#Patents
It is very often confused with bytecode interpreter patent.
As far as I know, this only affects the colour filter. Sub-pixel rendering itself can't be patented since it is prior art.
Thanks Werner for poiting it out. I would like to now more, could you please elaborate? 'Technical' point of view. What is colour filter and how it can be chosen? By FT_LCD_FILTER_*? Which is actually harmless one? Legal point of view. How that corresponds to "Due to PATENTS covering subpixel rendering, this function doesn't do anything except returning ‘FT_Err_Unimplemented_Feature’ if the configuration macro FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING is not defined in your build of the library, which should correspond to all default builds of FreeType." from FreeType2 manual? Why FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING is off by default? Where we can read more? Thanks for any pointers! Petr
First of all, ClearType has *two* components. The first one, subpixel hinting, is available in FreeType (via the macro TT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_HINTING), is *not* patented, but it is still off by default since it needs more testing, streamlining, etc. Originally, it was part of the Infinality patch. The second one is ClearType colour filtering, also implemented in FreeType (via the macro FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING); it *is* patented and thus off by default. Be aware that MS uses a different (and admittedly better) approach to subpixel rendering: To avoid overflows in the computations due to the increased horizontal resolution, they do super-sampling instead (this is, using normal resolution but getting information not for values 0, 1, 2, 3, ... but for 0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, ... or something similar instead).
'Technical' point of view. What is colour filter
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/cleartype/ https://www.grc.com/cleartype.htm http://www.beatstamm.com/typography/RTRCh2.htm#Sec2
and how it can be chosen? By FT_LCD_FILTER_*?
Yes, if compiled into FreeType.
Which is actually harmless one?
Harmless (but rather unusable) is FT_LCD_FILTER_LEGACY. Note that it is *easy* to circumvent the patent: Simply use a different but still good colour filter. The graphics system could increase the horizontal rendering resolution by, say, a factor of three, then apply a filter to reduce the resolution into proper RGB channels.
Why FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING is off by default?
Because FT_LCD_FILTER_DEFAULT is patented, AFAIK, and FT_LCD_FILTER_LIGHT probably too. Werner -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 07, 2014 at 09:05:09AM +0200, Petr Gajdos wrote:
You can try to use autohinter with hintslight generally for now by
Alternatively, you can also use CFF fonts. Their rendering improved a lot thanks to Adobe contribution to FreeType2. See http://fontinfo.opensuse.org/families/SourceSansPro.html for example. You can choose family on http://fontinfo.opensuse.org/fontformats.html and install it from there. Until 13.2, you have to properly <prefer> them in your fonts.conf before system ones by hand. If you need more guidance, feel free to ask me personally. Petr
Petr Gajdos writes:
On Mon, Apr 07, 2014 at 09:05:09AM +0200, Petr Gajdos wrote:
You can try to use autohinter with hintslight generally for now by
Alternatively, you can also use CFF fonts. Their rendering improved a lot thanks to Adobe contribution to FreeType2.
Well, I've spent a good part of the weekend trying to ween myself off the bitmap fonts I was still using (Adobe Courier). I've been wanting to do this for some time now since I tend to use more UTF-8 code points these days and the fallback fonts don't quite match up with the glyphs for Adobe Courier. The rendering for the sans serif fonts was actually quite pleasant, but the monospace variant didn't look good at the size I was trying to use it (9pt, 10pt was better). Anonymous Pro was better, but still had problems at certain sizes. In the end I installed the namtrac:subpixel packages; namely those for Factory even though I'm on Tumbleweed. Although there's a Tumbleweed branch on that repository, the libraries there are for an earlier version of KDE/Qt. With those libraries and the Infinality configuration the rendering that looks great (the glyphs are still a bit heavy with the default settings, but that can be adjusted with the filter). Both the embedded bitmaps and the autohinted fonts look worse in comparison. Unfortunately when Tumbleweed rolls out KDE 4.13 I'll probably lose the Infinality rendering again and have to see if I can get used to the autohinter variant. The problem there is that the strokes either get to heavy or the font starts fading into grey, I'm not sure if there's anything one could change to get around this. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Wavetables for the Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldUserWavetables -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Achim Gratz -
Alan B -
Cor Blom -
Felix Miata -
Jan Engelhardt -
Petr Gajdos -
Werner LEMBERG