VOTE ON SLOWROLL NAME
I agree with Dave. I use Tumbleweed for my daily and it's rock solid. I don't know where any perception that it's unstable comes from, because it's not the experience I have. I also disliked almost all of the proposed names, but more importantly for me is that I don't see any reason or need for slowroll. Perhaps I'm missing something here but what/who is the target user base for slowroll? On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 1:17 PM Dave Gom <nemesis68@gmx.com> wrote:
For me Tumbleweed is robust and stable like a rock and I don't see the need of a slower version but I understand some users were leaved "systemless" some times and it was an uncomfortable situation. Any way I don't like any of the proposed names so I want to suggest a couple of them. "Tumbleweed step" because a step behind from tumbleweed, or Tumbleweed trust or trusty, for obvious reasons. Regards.
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:56 AM From: "Dave Gom" <nemesis68@gmx.com> To: factory@lists.opensuse.org Subject: VOTE ON SLOWROLL NAME
Am 25.09.23 um 08:16 schrieb Chris McGimpsey-Jones | MP Portfolio Management:
I agree with Dave. I use Tumbleweed for my daily and it's rock solid. I don't know where any perception that it's unstable comes from, because it's not the experience I have. I also disliked almost all of the proposed names, but more importantly for me is that I don't see any reason or need for slowroll. Perhaps I'm missing something here but what/who is the target user base for slowroll?
I have not so much time to update tumbleweed weekly (or more often) and checking if all things still work in my production environment. (last update kernel 4.9? brake as example ONLY win xp guests in qemu) so to update in this high frequency tumbleweed makes stress so i think the idea of slowroll is pretty good, IF also packman would be in dync with slowroll. simoN -- www.becherer.de
I use Tumbleweed as my Desktop, as well as on a server or two. I agree that it is rock solid. The only loose canon is NVIDIA. On the other hand, we have measurement systems that are not office bound (road condition measurements, mobile mapping, etc). They need to be stable as we can make them. And, it is not convenient to update them regularly as they are in the hands of customers. So we usually choose a Leap release and then use that as our official release for a couple years. We make an installer using KIWI so that every system is 100% identical (baring any hardware differences that we cannot control). Every couple of years we move to a new Leap. It is a workable solution; however, it gets more difficult after our Leap is EOL and we need a new package that was not in our original KIWI install. As long as the package exists, we have a method to get them into our systems in a controlled fashion. But after EOL it gets to be a crap shoot. And an indicator that it's time to make a new KIWI installer and re-install the systems. Rinse and repeat, as it were. We had toyed with using Tumbleweed in this context. Unfortunately, the rolling release that I like so much on my desktop is a problem in this other use context. Getting all measurement systems to have the same Tumbleweed snapshot at the same time is like herding cats. As we deliver a binary installer, matching library versions across independent Tumbleweed versions is near impossible. Also, our current approach does not require an Internet connection at any point in the system build/maintain process. Does slowroll address our situation? I'm not sure. If something like a Tumbleweed's zypper dup could be done with slowroll but at a far less often frequency, and if a slowroll release could be around for a bit of time thus allowing different systems to get to the same slowroll release but done perhaps weeks apart, then perhaps it might. If anything, this discussion has us looking at the possibility of making our software into a flatpack. It has dozens of commands so the task is perhaps involved. But decoupling our code from the underlying OS might be a good thing. We already do something similar to be able to build Leap 15.3 (our current Leap) programs in our constantly changing Tumbleweed build environment. More of a chroot setup. But still a separation of our needs from those of the OS. On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 9:32 AM Chris McGimpsey-Jones | MP Portfolio Management <chrisjones.unixmen@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with Dave. I use Tumbleweed for my daily and it's rock solid. I don't know where any perception that it's unstable comes from, because it's not the experience I have. I also disliked almost all of the proposed names, but more importantly for me is that I don't see any reason or need for slowroll. Perhaps I'm missing something here but what/who is the target user base for slowroll?
On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 1:17 PM Dave Gom <nemesis68@gmx.com> wrote:
For me Tumbleweed is robust and stable like a rock and I don't see the
need of a slower version but I understand some users were leaved "systemless" some times and it was an uncomfortable situation.
Any way I don't like any of the proposed names so I want to suggest a couple of them. "Tumbleweed step" because a step behind from tumbleweed, or Tumbleweed trust or trusty, for obvious reasons. Regards.
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:56 AM From: "Dave Gom" <nemesis68@gmx.com> To: factory@lists.opensuse.org Subject: VOTE ON SLOWROLL NAME
-- Roger Oberholtzer
On 2023-09-25 09:57, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: [...]
On the other hand, we have measurement systems that are not office bound (road condition measurements, mobile mapping, etc). They need to be stable as we can make them. And, it is not convenient to update them regularly as they are in the hands of customers. So we usually choose a Leap release [...]
We had toyed with using Tumbleweed in this context. Unfortunately, the rolling release that I like so much on my desktop is a problem in this other use context. Getting all measurement systems to have the same Tumbleweed snapshot at the same time is like herding cats. As we deliver a binary installer, matching library versions across independent Tumbleweed versions is near impossible. Also, our current approach does not require an Internet connection at any point in the system build/maintain process. [...]
That is a super interesting problem to solve. I suspect that MicroOS can help you to develop a solution where you can control when and where to update, and minimize the ABI issues with some static compilation / container (or with more work, using a multi-release binary for each of the supported snapshots)
Hi all, One Tumbleweed issue I would like Slowroll to address is to add testing of the compatibility between kernel and NVIDIA close sourced driver. Currently, Tumbleweed does not guarantee this because it does not want to slow down the rolling of the latest kernel version. But maybe in Slowroll we could add some guarantee on that, among other stuff that might be in a similar situation (e.g., VMWare kernel modules). Best, Xu -- Xu Zhao i@xuzhao.net On Mon, Sep 25, 2023, at 8:08 AM, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Roger
It seems to me that the solution is to replace all the OpenSUSE repos with a private repo you control that all your customers use. That way all stay on the same version.
When they want to do an update - they just update their repo and have their customers do an update.
This is what you have to do to test that all is good and not broken before you update the field. and your update plan works.
My 2 cents
I suspect most slowroll users do not have unlimited internet or they have slow internet and cannot stand to have 1500 updates every other week. Slowroll is probably intended for them or all of them will move to some other long term stable Linux like Mint or Manjaro.
On 9/25/23 05:32, aplanas wrote:
On 2023-09-25 09:57, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
[...]
On the other hand, we have measurement systems that are not office bound (road condition measurements, mobile mapping, etc). They need to be stable as we can make them. And, it is not convenient to update them regularly as they are in the hands of customers. So we usually choose a Leap release [...]
We had toyed with using Tumbleweed in this context. Unfortunately, the rolling release that I like so much on my desktop is a problem in this other use context. Getting all measurement systems to have the same Tumbleweed snapshot at the same time is like herding cats. As we deliver a binary installer, matching library versions across independent Tumbleweed versions is near impossible. Also, our current approach does not require an Internet connection at any point in the system build/maintain process. [...]
That is a super interesting problem to solve. I suspect that MicroOS can help you to develop a solution where you can control when and where to update, and minimize the ABI issues with some static compilation / container (or with more work, using a multi-release binary for each of the supported snapshots)
On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 2:08 PM Larry Len Rainey <llrainey15@gmail.com> wrote:
Roger
It seems to me that the solution is to replace all the OpenSUSE repos with a private repo you control that all your customers use. That way all stay on the same version.
I had considered mirroring the repos locally, and only do that when I want, and only allow customer updates when we are happy with the repos, and the system updates are against those. If I did that, I would be very tempted to do it for Tumbleweed. We use 20 or so repos. I suspect that we could lower that list. It's things like NVIDIA (we do CUDA feature detection with YOLO), Intel IPP, and a few other non-SUSE things that may perhaps make things complicated. The difficult part is maintaining our off-line thing. Many organizations really dislike and often will not allow what they see as rogue systems to connect to their network. Although the systems are highly networked, that is all inside the vehicle. We have purposely limited external connections precisely so they cannot mess them up. The expense when a system has been borked is rather high. -- Roger Oberholtzer
On 2023-09-25 14:08, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Roger
It seems to me that the solution is to replace all the OpenSUSE repos with a private repo you control that all your customers use. That way all stay on the same version.
When they want to do an update - they just update their repo and have their customers do an update.
This is what you have to do to test that all is good and not broken before you update the field. and your update plan works.
My 2 cents
I suspect most slowroll users do not have unlimited internet or they have slow internet and cannot stand to have 1500 updates every other week. Slowroll is probably intended for them or all of them will move to some other long term stable Linux like Mint or Manjaro. I don't fit that definition at all.
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
For those that haven't been following the history, my understanding is that "Slowroll" is the way of moving "Leap" forward into new iterations . . . as there is no plan for Leap 15.7 at this time . . . "Slowroll" will carry the the flame of Leap into the future, albeit, "rolling slowly" rather than the quick changes of TW. I do like TW for it's "freshness," but lately it has been more "Sid-like" than my actual Sid install. Some item breaking with regularity, requiring too much time . . . if "Slowroll" is designed to be the mid-point between the staidness of Leap and the "exhilaration" of not knowing how TW will boot, then it will be the "just right" option. Now if only a name for it could be agreed upon . . . .
On 9/25/23 12:12, Fritz Hudnut wrote:
For those that haven't been following the history, my understanding is that "Slowroll" is the way of moving "Leap" forward into new iterations . . . as there is no plan for Leap 15.7 at this time . . . "Slowroll" will carry the the flame of Leap into the future, albeit, "rolling slowly" rather than the quick changes of TW.
I do like TW for it's "freshness," but lately it has been more "Sid-like" than my actual Sid install. Some item breaking with regularity, requiring too much time . . . if "Slowroll" is designed to be the mid-point between the staidness of Leap and the "exhilaration" of not knowing how TW will boot, then it will be the "just right" option. Now if only a name for it could be agreed upon . . . .
Hi Fritz, What are the TW build numbers where you experienced the breakage ? -- Regards, Joe
Joe: Thanks for the interest, the recent problem was from now about two weeks back, where regular zyppering of TW produced a delayed log in to populate the GUI. I'm in TW today, problem persists where it's 3 or 4 minutes to get from log in window to GUI, and then intermittent function on getting "suspend" window to open to suspend the machine. Described in painful detail on the help forum: https://forums.opensuse.org/t/log-in-and-suspend-slowness-issues-in-the-syst...
On Tuesday 26 September 2023, Fritz Hudnut wrote:
Joe:
Thanks for the interest, the recent problem was from now about two weeks back, where regular zyppering of TW produced a delayed log in to populate the GUI. I'm in TW today, problem persists where it's 3 or 4 minutes to get from log in window to GUI, and then intermittent function on getting "suspend" window to open to suspend the machine. Described in painful detail on the help forum: https://forums.opensuse.org/t/log-in-and-suspend-slowness-issues-in-the-syst...
I recently saw a large slowdown reaching login from boot, but on initial read of of post 169049, it doesn't seem like the same cause. In my case it was due to waiting for network manager, described here: https://forums.opensuse.org/t/networkmanager-seems-to-fail-at-boot/168560/18 (I just disabled the wait - which is safe for my usecase.) Michael
On 9/24/23 18:56, Dave Gom wrote:
For me Tumbleweed is robust and stable like a rock and I don't see the need of a slower version but I understand some users were leaved "systemless" some times and it was an uncomfortable situation. Any way I don't like any of the proposed names so I want to suggest a couple of them. "Tumbleweed step" because a step behind from tumbleweed, or Tumbleweed trust or trusty, for obvious reasons. Regards.
Robust and stable. Sequoia? But I think that name has been taken. Maybe another strong tree? Hickory? Regards, Lew
Lew Wolfgang composed on 2023-09-24 19:17 (UTC-0700):
Robust and stable. Sequoia? But I think that name has been taken.
Maybe another strong tree? Hickory?
Teak, very nice. But, good trees grow slowly. Slow is already in Slowroll, and I like the nick I use locally, sslo, for filesystem LABELs and mountpoints. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 9/24/23 22:47, Felix Miata wrote:
Lew Wolfgang composed on 2023-09-24 19:17 (UTC-0700):
Robust and stable. Sequoia? But I think that name has been taken. Maybe another strong tree? Hickory? Teak, very nice. But, good trees grow slowly. Slow is already in Slowroll, and I like the nick I use locally, sslo, for filesystem LABELs and mountpoints.
One the things that drive me nuts is when companies come up with names which they think are meaningful but that require users to do research to figure out what it really is. Look at the mess Intel has with their CPU names, Reaptor Lake, Alder Lake, Rocket Lake, Tiger Lake, etc. Makes it hard to know which is the latest and greatest. I don't even pay attention to the names and instead just look at the Model # which tells me which generation it is. Somone said that "SlowRoll" was less desirable because of the negativeness of "slow", how about StableRoll ? That seems to very clearly set the expectations for what it is supposed to be. -- Regards, Joe
On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 6:28 PM Joe Salmeri <jmscdba@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/24/23 22:47, Felix Miata wrote:
Lew Wolfgang composed on 2023-09-24 19:17 (UTC-0700):
Robust and stable. Sequoia? But I think that name has been taken. Maybe another strong tree? Hickory? Teak, very nice. But, good trees grow slowly. Slow is already in Slowroll, and I like the nick I use locally, sslo, for filesystem LABELs and mountpoints.
One the things that drive me nuts is when companies come up with names which they think are meaningful but that require users to do research to figure out what it really is.
Look at the mess Intel has with their CPU names, Reaptor Lake, Alder Lake, Rocket Lake, Tiger Lake, etc.
Makes it hard to know which is the latest and greatest. I don't even pay attention to the names and instead just look at the Model # which tells me which generation it is.
Somone said that "SlowRoll" was less desirable because of the negativeness of "slow", how about StableRoll ?
Or SteadyRoll. And then Eric Clapton has a theme song (sort of) all ready. I agree that SlowRoll does not sound promising as a name. Pulsar is the other one that I like. -- Roger Oberholtzer
Maybe you can make it so obscure its funny. :-) "TootsieRoll" ha Cameron ________________________________________ From: Roger Oberholtzer <roger.oberholtzer@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 10:53 AM To: Joe Salmeri Cc: factory@lists.opensuse.org Subject: Re: VOTE ON SLOWROLL NAME On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 6:28 PM Joe Salmeri <jmscdba@gmail.com<mailto:jmscdba@gmail.com>> wrote: On 9/24/23 22:47, Felix Miata wrote:
Lew Wolfgang composed on 2023-09-24 19:17 (UTC-0700):
Robust and stable. Sequoia? But I think that name has been taken. Maybe another strong tree? Hickory? Teak, very nice. But, good trees grow slowly. Slow is already in Slowroll, and I like the nick I use locally, sslo, for filesystem LABELs and mountpoints.
One the things that drive me nuts is when companies come up with names which they think are meaningful but that require users to do research to figure out what it really is. Look at the mess Intel has with their CPU names, Reaptor Lake, Alder Lake, Rocket Lake, Tiger Lake, etc. Makes it hard to know which is the latest and greatest. I don't even pay attention to the names and instead just look at the Model # which tells me which generation it is. Somone said that "SlowRoll" was less desirable because of the negativeness of "slow", how about StableRoll ? Or SteadyRoll. And then Eric Clapton has a theme song (sort of) all ready. I agree that SlowRoll does not sound promising as a name. Pulsar is the other one that I like. -- Roger Oberholtzer
"TootsieRoll" sparked the image of the bone rotating slowly through space at the beginning of "2001" . . . perhaps "Odyssey" might be an apt name . . . ???
On 2023-09-25 18:28, Joe Salmeri wrote:
On 9/24/23 22:47, Felix Miata wrote:
Lew Wolfgang composed on 2023-09-24 19:17 (UTC-0700):
Robust and stable. Sequoia? But I think that name has been taken. Maybe another strong tree? Hickory? Teak, very nice. But, good trees grow slowly. Slow is already in Slowroll, and I like the nick I use locally, sslo, for filesystem LABELs and mountpoints.
One the things that drive me nuts is when companies come up with names which they think are meaningful but that require users to do research to figure out what it really is.
Look at the mess Intel has with their CPU names, Reaptor Lake, Alder Lake, Rocket Lake, Tiger Lake, etc.
Makes it hard to know which is the latest and greatest. I don't even pay attention to the names and instead just look at the Model # which tells me which generation it is.
Somone said that "SlowRoll" was less desirable because of the negativeness of "slow", how about StableRoll ?
On the contrary, it is more desirable because it is slow.
That seems to very clearly set the expectations for what it is supposed to be.
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often. Anyway, Pulse is the best name suggested so far. It doesn’t imply there is anything wrong with with either Slowroll or Tumbleweed. Paul Lipps "Anyone who is unwilling to learn is entitled to absolutely nothing." - graysonf
* Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org> [09-25-23 14:09]:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
correct. it is not necessary or compelling to be constantly unpdating unless you just wnat to.
Anyway, Pulse is the best name suggested so far. It doesn’t imply there is anything wrong with with either Slowroll or Tumbleweed.
I kind of like slowroll, not that I believe it is necessary. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them.
tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more. nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
There are different definitions of "stable" at play here. Crashes are one thing, but what people mean in "unstable" here probably is about dependencies and pre-compiled binaries and scripts etc. breaking because of software version changes, or even just usage of some software changing and therefore breaking habits or documentation. KaiRo On 9/25/23 21:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often. No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them. tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more.
nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light.
Adding my 2 cents... My opinion on stable means it doesn't break. Tumbleweed is incredibly stable in my opinion, it has never broken for me, I update daily, usually. Arch is not stable, it breaks for me therefore isn't stable. I love the idea of a slow roll (though I'm confused how it will be implemented, I have many questions that so far aren't being answered, albeit I haven't actually asked anyone either, yet).... I will continue to use tumbleweed as long as tumbleweed continues to be the best (b)leading edge and supremely stable system it is today. The slowroll option sounds perfect for my 78 year old mother who doesn't want to update often, and the thought of dist-upgrading her system given the oft chance it breaks worries her. Currently on kubuntu LTS, but LTS's have been known to break during release upgrades. I update her computer bout once a months, slowroll would be perfect and I'd never have to worry about the pain in the butt big release upgrade again. I think it would also be perfect for sweeties business that needs financial software (kmymoney and many spreadsheets mostly) and really needs to not ever break. I like the name Fusion because it fuses (sort of) leap and tumbleweed together. On Monday, September 25, 2023 3:54:07 PM EDT Robert Kaiser wrote:
There are different definitions of "stable" at play here.
Crashes are one thing, but what people mean in "unstable" here probably is about dependencies and pre-compiled binaries and scripts etc. breaking because of software version changes, or even just usage of some software changing and therefore breaking habits or documentation.
KaiRo
On 9/25/23 21:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them.
tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more.
nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light.
-- Dale, Low Tech Linux[1] /Some of ya'll need more science/ -------- [1] https://youtube.com/lowtechlinux
On 2023-09-25 21:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them.
tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more.
nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light.
That is one definition of stable. Another is "having no changes" for many moons. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:03]:
On 2023-09-25 21:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them.
tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more.
nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light.
That is one definition of stable. Another is "having no changes" for many moons.
and there are *no* changes to tumbleweed, unless you specifically "dup" which you do not have to do. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2023-09-25 23:48, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:03]:
On 2023-09-25 21:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them.
tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more.
nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light.
That is one definition of stable. Another is "having no changes" for many moons.
and there are *no* changes to tumbleweed, unless you specifically "dup" which you do not have to do.
There are thousands of changes per week on TW. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 20:03]:
On 2023-09-25 23:48, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:03]:
On 2023-09-25 21:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them.
tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more.
nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light.
That is one definition of stable. Another is "having no changes" for many moons.
and there are *no* changes to tumbleweed, unless you specifically "dup" which you do not have to do.
There are thousands of changes per week on TW.
read: not if you do not "dup". and it hurts nothing by not duping. you are able to dup when *you* choose to. and to reboot when you see fit. you are not driven by the availability of newer packages. it is a choice. there can be millions of changes but they do not affect you unless you make that choice. there is a newer model of the car I drive but I have not purchased it and may never, but it exists. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 9/25/23 18:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
There are thousands of changes per week on TW. read: not if you do not "dup". and it hurts nothing by not duping. you are able to dup when*you* choose to. and to reboot when you see fit. you are not driven by the availability of newer packages. it is a choice. there can be millions of changes but they do not affect you unless you make that choice. there is a newer model of the car I drive but I have not purchased it and may never, but it exists.
But some organizations require frequent updates for security reasons. Indeed, weekly updates may be required and confirmed with Nessus scans. Leap has been remarkably good at this. I tried Tumbleweed some years ago in this environment, but it didn't work. To be fair I guess it deserves another try. Regards, Lew
On 2023-09-26 03:48, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/25/23 18:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
There are thousands of changes per week on TW. read: not if you do not "dup". and it hurts nothing by not duping. you are able to dup when*you* choose to. and to reboot when you see fit. you are not driven by the availability of newer packages. it is a choice. there can be millions of changes but they do not affect you unless you make that choice. there is a newer model of the car I drive but I have not purchased it and may never, but it exists.
But some organizations require frequent updates for security reasons. Indeed, weekly updates may be required and confirmed with Nessus scans. Leap has been remarkably good at this.
I tried Tumbleweed some years ago in this environment, but it didn't work. To be fair I guess it deserves another try.
Ask Roger Oberholtzer why not. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 1:07 PM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2023-09-26 03:48, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 9/25/23 18:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
There are thousands of changes per week on TW. read: not if you do not "dup". and it hurts nothing by not duping. you are able to dup when*you* choose to. and to reboot when you see fit. you are not driven by the availability of newer packages. it is a choice. there can be millions of changes but they do not affect you unless you make that choice. there is a newer model of the car I drive but I have not purchased it and may never, but it exists.
But some organizations require frequent updates for security reasons. Indeed, weekly updates may be required and confirmed with Nessus scans. Leap has been remarkably good at this.
I tried Tumbleweed some years ago in this environment, but it didn't work. To be fair I guess it deserves another try.
Ask Roger Oberholtzer why not.
Where I use Tumbleweed (office, development, servers), the IT guys are not happy. They want me to be using Windows that they control 100%. I have conceded that I can run MS Defender and something called Insight on Tumbleweed so they get the warm and fuzzies. But all it does is report things to Big Brother. They should not be able to modify things. I'm always asked to defend from a business pov why I have various things installed. Most recently they want to know about cockpit. I'm a software developer. I will always have new things installed for evaluation. They don't understand why. One of their issues is that they have no way of knowing if my system is up-to-date with respect to security fixes. As I run zypper dup on a regular basis, I suspect that my Tumbleweed is more up-to-date than their Windows systems. So in the Tumbleweed context we are okay. But they remain skeptical. A bigger issue is when we put a measurement system on the company intranet during service. You cannot believe the hoops that had to be jumped trhough for that to happen (and the layers between these systems and the rest of the network). They are always sniffing around (ports and such) and complaining that we are not running the latest of everything. They do not understand the need for stability. So it is a mix. Where we keep the systems very much up to date, they are suspicious that we have all security fixes. Where we let the systems lag a bit, they are upset that we don't update them each hour. There is no one solution for everyone. Everyone has a different outlook on what is the important critical factor. -- Roger Oberholtzer
On 2023-09-26 13:37, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 1:07 PM Carlos E. R. <...> wrote: On 2023-09-26 03:48, Lew Wolfgang wrote: > On 9/25/23 18:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote: >>> There are thousands of changes per week on TW. >> read: not if you do not "dup". and it hurts nothing by not duping. you >> are able to dup when*you* choose to. and to reboot when you see fit. >> you are not driven by the availability of newer packages. it is a choice. >> there can be millions of changes but they do not affect you unless you >> make that choice. there is a newer model of the car I drive but I have >> not purchased it and may never, but it exists. > > But some organizations require frequent updates for security reasons. > Indeed, > weekly updates may be required and confirmed with Nessus scans. Leap has > been remarkably good at this. > > I tried Tumbleweed some years ago in this environment, but it didn't > work. To > be fair I guess it deserves another try.
Ask Roger Oberholtzer why not.
Where I use Tumbleweed (office, development, servers), the IT guys are not happy. They want me to be using Windows that they control 100%. I have conceded that I can run MS Defender and something called Insight on Tumbleweed so they get the warm and fuzzies. But all it does is report things to Big Brother. They should not be able to modify things. I'm always asked to defend from a business pov why I have various things installed. Most recently they want to know about cockpit. I'm a software developer. I will always have new things installed for evaluation. They don't understand why.
Right.
One of their issues is that they have no way of knowing if my system is up-to-date with respect to security fixes. As I run zypper dup on a regular basis, I suspect that my Tumbleweed is more up-to-date than their Windows systems. So in the Tumbleweed context we are okay. But they remain skeptical.
Right.
A bigger issue is when we put a measurement system on the company intranet during service. You cannot believe the hoops that had to be jumped trhough for that to happen (and the layers between these systems and the rest of the network). They are always sniffing around (ports and such) and complaining that we are not running the latest of everything. They do not understand the need for stability.
I can imagine.
So it is a mix. Where we keep the systems very much up to date, they are suspicious that we have all security fixes. Where we let the systems lag a bit, they are upset that we don't update them each hour.
There is no one solution for everyone. Everyone has a different outlook on what is the important critical factor.
Years ago I worked for the military. Using Win 95 this side of the century, because it had been vetted. Machines booted via network, with some piece of bios authenticating the machine. I don't remember the details. If the organization has to vet the software, the accepted versions will always be old, and they prefer stability as in "no changes". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On 2023-09-26 03:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 20:03]:
On 2023-09-25 23:48, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:03]:
On 2023-09-25 21:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 15:18]:
On 2023-09-25 20:07, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote: > This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If > you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as > often.
No, that is not a solution. There are still many updates, that is the definition of "Tumbleweed is not stable". Closing your eyes to them does not stop them.
tumbleweed is stable, ie: doesn't constantly crash when being used. it doesn't even infrequently crash, I cannot recall a "crash" in the last year or more.
nothing becomes not stable just because there are updates available. open your eyes and see the light.
That is one definition of stable. Another is "having no changes" for many moons.
and there are *no* changes to tumbleweed, unless you specifically "dup" which you do not have to do.
There are thousands of changes per week on TW.
read: not if you do not "dup". and it hurts nothing by not duping.
It does not matter whatsoever if I dup or not. The updates exist. I object to their mere existence. That's the stability we want, me and those that want a "Stable openSUSE". Keep changes in existence to a minimum. Which is not TW, no matter if it doesn't break.That's a different type of stability, one we are not talking about. Yes, Slow roll is a perfect name. Keep it. The slower, the better. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:05:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The updates exist.
KDE also exists, but I haven't installed it because I DON'T WANT TO. If you want something similar to Leap, and it's not available, then you will either need to look for another distro that gives you what you want, or you will have to decide to take on maintaining what you want. I ran into a problem with GNOME 45 on Tumbleweed (I opened a bug on it), but because of that breaking issue for me, I reverted and haven't updated. Yep, there are 469 updates queued right now, and I'm blocked from applying them because the update to GNOME 45 renders my system unusable. So, I have chosen to not update. The idea that updates exist = bad is just ridiculous. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:13:46 -0500, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
You can install generic desktop and select MATE desktop - No gnome - no KDE much more stable than either and looks like Vista or XP desktop.
That wasn't my point. My point was that just because updates (or a desktop I don't want) *exist* doesn't mean I must install them. It is patently ridiculous IMNSHO to decry the very existence of updates - just as ridiculous as saying "I must install everything that my distro offers, whether I use it or not". And looking like Vista or XP? Ewww. ;) BTW, could you *please* post either text-only or mixed? Your HTML posts are nearly impossible to decypher using text-only e-mail readers (and NNTP readers - I use gmane to consume these lists, and I'm not alone). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On 2023-09-26 19:18, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:13:46 -0500, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
You can install generic desktop and select MATE desktop - No gnome - no KDE much more stable than either and looks like Vista or XP desktop.
That wasn't my point. My point was that just because updates (or a desktop I don't want) *exist* doesn't mean I must install them. It is patently ridiculous IMNSHO to decry the very existence of updates - just as ridiculous as saying "I must install everything that my distro offers, whether I use it or not".
Then you did not understand what I said.
And looking like Vista or XP? Ewww. ;)
BTW, could you *please* post either text-only or mixed? Your HTML posts are nearly impossible to decypher using text-only e-mail readers (and NNTP readers - I use gmane to consume these lists, and I'm not alone).
Jim
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-26-23 13:51]:
On 2023-09-26 19:18, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:13:46 -0500, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
You can install generic desktop and select MATE desktop - No gnome - no KDE much more stable than either and looks like Vista or XP desktop.
That wasn't my point. My point was that just because updates (or a desktop I don't want) *exist* doesn't mean I must install them. It is patently ridiculous IMNSHO to decry the very existence of updates - just as ridiculous as saying "I must install everything that my distro offers, whether I use it or not".
Then you did not understand what I said.
huh, you said that if updates exist you must install them and that makes tw unstable. no, you didn't say that you had to install everything but not much diff. the existance of something does not control you, you control you. and you do not have to dup every 10 minutes. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Op dinsdag 26 september 2023 19:56:24 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-26-23 13:51]:
On 2023-09-26 19:18, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:13:46 -0500, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
You can
install generic desktop and select MATE desktop - No gnome - no KDE much more stable than either and looks like Vista or XP desktop.
That wasn't my point. My point was that just because updates (or a desktop I don't want) *exist* doesn't mean I must install them. It is patently ridiculous IMNSHO to decry the very existence of updates - just as ridiculous as saying "I must install everything that my distro offers, whether I use it or not".
Then you did not understand what I said.
huh, you said that if updates exist you must install them and that makes tw unstable. no, you didn't say that you had to install everything but not much diff. the existance of something does not control you, you control you. and you do not have to dup every 10 minutes. Can you guys please move your chat to some private instance ?
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team
* Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> [09-26-23 14:18]:
Op dinsdag 26 september 2023 19:56:24 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-26-23 13:51]:
On 2023-09-26 19:18, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:13:46 -0500, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
You can
install generic desktop and select MATE desktop - No gnome - no KDE much more stable than either and looks like Vista or XP desktop.
That wasn't my point. My point was that just because updates (or a desktop I don't want) *exist* doesn't mean I must install them. It is patently ridiculous IMNSHO to decry the very existence of updates - just as ridiculous as saying "I must install everything that my distro offers, whether I use it or not".
Then you did not understand what I said.
huh, you said that if updates exist you must install them and that makes tw unstable. no, you didn't say that you had to install everything but not much diff. the existance of something does not control you, you control you. and you do not have to dup every 10 minutes. Can you guys please move your chat to some private instance ?
your generosity exceeds your good looks. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 2:16:52 PM EDT Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Can you guys please move your chat to some private instance ? +1
-- Dale, Low Tech Linux[1] /Some of ya'll need more science/ -------- [1] https://youtube.com/lowtechlinux
On 9/26/23 16:57, Kilian Hanich wrote:
Am 27.09.23 um 00:02 schrieb dale via openSUSE Factory:
On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 2:16:52 PM EDT Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Can you guys please move your chat to some private instance ?
+1
+1
The Official Offtopic List: List-Subscribe: <mailto:offtopic-join@lists.opensuse.org> Regards, Lew
On 9/27/23 03:46, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op dinsdag 26 september 2023 19:56:24 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-26-23 13:51]:
On 2023-09-26 19:18, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:13:46 -0500, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
You can
install generic desktop and select MATE desktop - No gnome - no KDE much more stable than either and looks like Vista or XP desktop.
That wasn't my point. My point was that just because updates (or a desktop I don't want) *exist* doesn't mean I must install them. It is patently ridiculous IMNSHO to decry the very existence of updates - just as ridiculous as saying "I must install everything that my distro offers, whether I use it or not".
Then you did not understand what I said.
huh, you said that if updates exist you must install them and that makes tw unstable. no, you didn't say that you had to install everything but not much diff. the existance of something does not control you, you control you. and you do not have to dup every 10 minutes. Can you guys please move your chat to some private instance ?
As an illusive list moderator I will repeat this request. This is a development list, and after the results have been announced I shouldn't need to wake up to 10+ emails under this subject heading. Unfortunately such behavior has been slowly getting worse again on this list and for my own sanity and that of the others who need to use this list for there daily development work I now feel I have no option but to start giving personal warnings and then bans to people who continue to regularly take this list off topic into the future. Thanks -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 2023-09-26 19:56, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-26-23 13:51]:
On 2023-09-26 19:18, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:13:46 -0500, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
You can install generic desktop and select MATE desktop - No gnome - no KDE much more stable than either and looks like Vista or XP desktop.
That wasn't my point. My point was that just because updates (or a desktop I don't want) *exist* doesn't mean I must install them. It is patently ridiculous IMNSHO to decry the very existence of updates - just as ridiculous as saying "I must install everything that my distro offers, whether I use it or not".
Then you did not understand what I said.
huh, you said that if updates exist you must install them and that makes tw unstable. no, you didn't say that you had to install everything but not much diff. the existance of something does not control you, you control you. and you do not have to dup every 10 minutes.
No, that's not it. No, I will not explain it to you, you are being obtuse. Leap people understood. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 21:12:58 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, I will not explain it to you, you are being obtuse. Leap people understood.
That is nonsense, Carlos, and you know it. I ran Leap for years, and I understand exactly what you're saying. If you ran Tumbleweed, you'd understand that you *don't* typically run a 'zypper dup' daily, typically, and that there's never a requirement to update your system except when YOU want to. To say otherwise is to be obtuse (as you put it). If you want to avoid updates, just go back to openSUSE 13.2 and be done with it. You never have to deal with updates ever again. Heck Leap 15.3 gives you that "option" now as well. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On 2023-09-26 22:32, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 21:12:58 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, I will not explain it to you, you are being obtuse. Leap people understood.
That is nonsense, Carlos, and you know it. I ran Leap for years, and I understand exactly what you're saying.
If you ran Tumbleweed, you'd understand that you *don't* typically run a 'zypper dup' daily, typically, and that there's never a requirement to update your system except when YOU want to. To say otherwise is to be obtuse (as you put it).
If you want to avoid updates, just go back to openSUSE 13.2 and be done with it. You never have to deal with updates ever again. Heck Leap 15.3 gives you that "option" now as well.
No, sorry, if you say that you have misunderstood. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 22:43:57 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, sorry, if you say that you have misunderstood.
So then explain how:
The updates exist. I object to their mere existence.
Does not mean exactly what it says - that you object to there being updates. Because those words do not mean what I think you think they mean if you're saying that that is not what you're saying. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On 2023-09-26 22:46, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 22:43:57 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, sorry, if you say that you have misunderstood.
So then explain how:
The updates exist. I object to their mere existence.
Does not mean exactly what it says - that you object to there being updates. Because those words do not mean what I think you think they mean if you're saying that that is not what you're saying.
No, because you will misunderstand my words. I'll let other people explain. Roger Oberholtzer understands. Maybe Simon Becherer, Fritz Hudnut... just looking at participants in this thread. I want API and ABI stability. Stability as in few updates done (not users skipping updates), keeping the same versions for a year with just security updates, similar to what leap does now, or rather what openSUSE did before Leap. I want compatibility with commercial packages out of the box. This is not the same concept of stability as in "not breaking". But If you are partisan to TW, you will not understand, and try to put everybody in TW, and think that skipping updates is the solution for us. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 23:05:14 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, because you will misunderstand my words. I'll let other people explain.
Huh. So I want to understand, but you either think I'm (a) not smart enough to understand what you're trying to say, or (b) that I'm insincere in wanting to understand. I find that patently offensive.
Roger Oberholtzer understands. Maybe Simon Becherer, Fritz Hudnut... just looking at participants in this thread.
I want API and ABI stability. Stability as in few updates done (not users skipping updates), keeping the same versions for a year with just security updates, similar to what leap does now, or rather what openSUSE did before Leap. I want compatibility with commercial packages out of the box.
This is not the same concept of stability as in "not breaking".
Which is not *actually* what you said. But if you want ABI and API stability, not updating is still an option for you. If you want security patches, you have the option of backporting them yourself or spearheading an effort to do just that. Or you can selectively apply updates and patches based on your needs - or some combination of those options. Face it, the team that's putting together Leap has decided they're not interested in doing that any more. So if someone wants Leap to continue past 15.6, they need to step up to make it happen. Making statements like "I object to [updates'] mere existence" isn't going to effect the change you want. Open source and technology is always changing, and either you adapt or you don't. Complaining that people who volunteer their time aren't doing what YOU need without stepping up to help isn't going to get you what you want.
But If you are partisan to TW, you will not understand, and try to put everybody in TW, and think that skipping updates is the solution for us.
Huh, because I run Tumbleweed on one system, I must be "partisan" to it. Nice. Never mind that I have my wife's laptop on Leap and have VMs for all the current versions of Leap so I can test things on them. But *clearly* I'm too stupid to understand you. Got it. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On 2023-09-26 23:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 23:05:14 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, because you will misunderstand my words. I'll let other people explain.
Huh. So I want to understand, but you either think I'm (a) not smart enough to understand what you're trying to say, or (b) that I'm insincere in wanting to understand.
I find that patently offensive.
That's your prerrogative, but I was not trying to offend. Thus, I do not like to talk with you, because you misunderstand me. quit. ... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 23:05:14 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I want compatibility with commercial packages out of the box.
Without having current libraries on your system because they were distributed through an update? Unless those commercial packages are shipping all dependencies themselves and managing them separately, well, good luck with that. I full expect you to complain that those dependent libraries aren't also available on your system for any and all commercial solutions you happen to want to run. After all, those commercial packages aren't all going to be shipped as snaps or flatpaks. <eyeroll> -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
(OMG, I'm participating in this stupid thread... m) On 26.09.23 23:36, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 23:05:14 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I want compatibility with commercial packages out of the box.
Without having current libraries on your system because they were distributed through an update? Unless those commercial packages are shipping all dependencies themselves and managing them separately, well, good luck with that. I full expect you to complain that those dependent libraries aren't also available on your system for any and all commercial solutions you happen to want to run.
quite often commercial (or noncommercial...) thirdparty software is rather not built against the latest and greatest library version but some older version in a debian stable or similar distribution. So one solution to this problem in tumbleweed / slowroll might be to actually keep multiple, even older library versions around in tumbleweed, similar to what is already done e.g. with openssl versions: strolchi:~ # zypper se -i libopenssl Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... S | Name | Summary | Type ---+----------------------+----------------------------------+-------- i+ | libopenssl-1_1-devel | Development files for OpenSSL | package i | libopenssl1_0_0 | Secure Sockets and Transport ... | package i | libopenssl1_1 | Secure Sockets and Transport ... | package i | libopenssl1_1-32bit | Secure Sockets and Transport ... | package i | libopenssl3 | Secure Sockets and Transport ... | package i | libopenssl3-32bit | Secure Sockets and Transport ... | package I don't remember exactly which library it was and which application (I only use very little thirdparty stuff on my Factory machine and only once per year or so), it might have been the Citrix ICAclient or such, but back then I had to fetch some library, maybe libicu? from then current leap repos and just install it on my Factory machine to get the binaries to run. So keeping older versions around in Tumbleweed as it is done now in Leap might be an option of making TW/Slowroll more compatible with thirdparty stuff than it is now. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On Wednesday 2023-09-27 06:54, Stefan Seyfried via openSUSE Factory wrote:
(OMG, I'm participating in this stupid thread... m)
guilty pleasures...
quite often commercial (or noncommercial...) thirdparty software is rather not built against the latest and greatest library version but some older version in a debian stable or similar distribution.
and Slowroll is unlikely to change thirdparty stances
So one solution to this problem in tumbleweed / slowroll might be to actually keep multiple, even older library versions around in tumbleweed, similar to what is already done e.g. with openssl versions:
Generally, software is not retained to make an external pieces of software happy. It is retained to keep some piece of old software *already in TW* building. Anecdotally, that old software is sometimes even more so on lifesupport than the external piece of software, which is why it may *seem* that we keep old libraries for external software, but don't actually.
On 2023-09-27 06:54, Stefan Seyfried via openSUSE Factory wrote:
(OMG, I'm participating in this stupid thread... m)
On 26.09.23 23:36, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 23:05:14 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I want compatibility with commercial packages out of the box.
Without having current libraries on your system because they were distributed through an update? Unless those commercial packages are shipping all dependencies themselves and managing them separately, well, good luck with that. I full expect you to complain that those dependent libraries aren't also available on your system for any and all commercial solutions you happen to want to run.
It is not a problem for Leap. I do not need to complain to anybody, I am happy.
quite often commercial (or noncommercial...) thirdparty software is rather not built against the latest and greatest library version but some older version in a debian stable or similar distribution.
So one solution to this problem in tumbleweed / slowroll might be to actually keep multiple, even older library versions around in tumbleweed, similar to what is already done e.g. with openssl versions:
Maybe. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
On 2023-09-26 22:29, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 19:50:35 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Then you did not understand what I said.
What's to understand? You don't want updates. So don't *install* them.
Simple.
Then you do not understand. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
On Sep 25, 2023, at 2:23 PM, Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> wrote:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
Then that would be the time to update. When you are ready to install new packages, update. That’s hardly unreasonable even for slow folks. Anyway, this ship has already sailed. No going back now. Slowroll is here to stay, but it clearly needs a better name. Paul Lipps "Anyone who is unwilling to learn is entitled to absolutely nothing." - graysonf
On 9/25/23 15:37, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
On Sep 25, 2023, at 2:23 PM, Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> wrote:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
Then that would be the time to update. When you are ready to install new packages, update. That’s hardly unreasonable even for slow folks. Anyway, this ship has already sailed. No going back now. Slowroll is here to stay, but it clearly needs a better name.
Paul Lipps
"Anyone who is unwilling to learn is entitled to absolutely nothing." - graysonf
Another option us to use tumbleweed-cli which allows you to lock yourself to one of the last 20 builds. Generally that would allow you 1 month ( or a little less ) where you could install additional packages because you are pointed to a specific release. I have been using it for several years now and it works great. I generally update in the 2 - 4 week range depending on the results at openqa as well as where it fits into whatever projects I am working on. -- Regards, Joe
On 2023-09-25 21:37, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
On Sep 25, 2023, at 2:23 PM, Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> wrote:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
Then that would be the time to update. When you are ready to install new packages, update. That’s hardly unreasonable even for slow folks. Anyway, this ship has already sailed. No going back now. Slowroll is here to stay, but it clearly needs a better name.
Yes, it is unreasonable. I want to be able to add packages without having to update the entire thing, introducing new changes which may break other things. Configurations that are done at a different place, things that are done with different libraries or apps. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:08]:
On 2023-09-25 21:37, Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory wrote:
On Sep 25, 2023, at 2:23 PM, Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> wrote:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
Then that would be the time to update. When you are ready to install new packages, update. That’s hardly unreasonable even for slow folks. Anyway, this ship has already sailed. No going back now. Slowroll is here to stay, but it clearly needs a better name.
Yes, it is unreasonable.
I want to be able to add packages without having to update the entire thing, introducing new changes which may break other things. Configurations that are done at a different place, things that are done with different libraries or apps.
you can add additional applications but if they require software that is later version than installed you will have the same problem as installing on a Leap system. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll". haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Citeren Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org>:
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll".
No, it won't. All packages in the "slowroll" release will stay the same until a new release is made. Until that, it will be possible to install packages without dependency problems.
haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages?
Sure, this is a well known problem for non-rolling release distributions. Either a stable distribution for <x> number of months, or the latest and greatest versions of packages with lots of updates. You can't have both.
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:48]:
Citeren Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org>:
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll".
No, it won't. All packages in the "slowroll" release will stay the same until a new release is made. Until that, it will be possible to install packages without dependency problems.
yes, if the "additional packages" do not require dependencies newer than the "slowroll release date"
haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages?
Sure, this is a well known problem for non-rolling release distributions. Either a stable distribution for <x> number of months, or the latest and greatest versions of packages with lots of updates. You can't have both.
and will also apply for "slowroll". just delaying the dup for tumbleweed will accomplish the same as desired by slowroll. not my cup-a-tea, but there are scenarios available for all situations. patience is a requirement in most cases. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2023-09-25 21:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll".
haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages?
Leap was not the choice many of us wanted, but simply the only available choice we had (within the openSUSE ecosystem). And it has been there way longer than we expected. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:11]:
On 2023-09-25 21:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll".
haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages?
Leap was not the choice many of us wanted, but simply the only available choice we had (within the openSUSE ecosystem).
you could have chosen tumbleweed.
And it has been there way longer than we expected.
-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2023-09-25 23:50, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:11]:
On 2023-09-25 21:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll".
haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages?
Leap was not the choice many of us wanted, but simply the only available choice we had (within the openSUSE ecosystem).
you could have chosen tumbleweed.
Not for my life.
And it has been there way longer than we expected.
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 20:05]:
On 2023-09-25 23:50, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:11]:
On 2023-09-25 21:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll".
haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages?
Leap was not the choice many of us wanted, but simply the only available choice we had (within the openSUSE ecosystem).
you could have chosen tumbleweed.
Not for my life.
And it has been there way longer than we expected.
so leap was not the only available choice, but the choice you made. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2023-09-26 03:18, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 20:05]:
On 2023-09-25 23:50, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-25-23 17:11]:
On 2023-09-25 21:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Arjen de Korte <suse+build@de-korte.org> [09-25-23 15:26]:
Citeren Paul Lipps via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org>:
> This would be a great opportunity to consolidate folks on Tumbleweed. If > you don’t like the frequency of updates, then simply don’t update as > often.
This only works if one doesn't want to install additional packages. More often than not, additional packages will have dependencies that can no longer be satisfied if you're several updates behind.
with that in mind, the same will apply for "slowroll".
haven't you noticed the number of posts asking why such-and-such newer version of xxx is not available in the leap packages?
Leap was not the choice many of us wanted, but simply the only available choice we had (within the openSUSE ecosystem).
you could have chosen tumbleweed.
Not for my life.
And it has been there way longer than we expected.
so leap was not the only available choice, but the choice you made.
The choice WE made. The only one WE could make. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
Am 25.09.2023 18:28, schrieb Joe Salmeri:
One the things that drive me nuts is when companies come up with names which they think are meaningful but that require users to do research to figure out what it really is.
Look at the mess Intel has with their CPU names, Reaptor Lake, Alder Lake, Rocket Lake, Tiger Lake, etc.
Makes it hard to know which is the latest and greatest. I don't even pay attention to the names and instead just look at the Model # which tells me which generation it is.
Somone said that "SlowRoll" was less desirable because of the negativeness of "slow", how about StableRoll ?
That seems to very clearly set the expectations for what it is supposed to be.
My thoughts 99%. But instead of StableRoll (would imply Tumbleweed is unstable, which isn't really true) I'd prefer RelaxedRoll. Simple, straightforward, no negative connotation. Best regards, Miko
On Tuesday 26 September 2023, Miko via openSUSE Factory wrote:
Am 25.09.2023 18:28, schrieb Joe Salmeri:
One the things that drive me nuts is when companies come up with names which they think are meaningful but that require users to do research to figure out what it really is.
Look at the mess Intel has with their CPU names, Reaptor Lake, Alder Lake, Rocket Lake, Tiger Lake, etc.
Makes it hard to know which is the latest and greatest. I don't even pay attention to the names and instead just look at the Model # which tells me which generation it is.
Somone said that "SlowRoll" was less desirable because of the negativeness of "slow", how about StableRoll ?
That seems to very clearly set the expectations for what it is supposed to be.
My thoughts 99%. But instead of StableRoll (would imply Tumbleweed is unstable, which isn't really true) I'd prefer
RelaxedRoll.
Simple, straightforward, no negative connotation.
Best regards, Miko
Relaxing and rolling are contradictory, so it doesn't sit well as a pairing. Same with Slowroll. If you want something relaxed, perhaps just something simple like: OpenSUSE Decaf, OpenSUSE Chill, OpenSUSE Mellow. Or with a sense of journey: OpenSUSE Odyssey, OpenSUSE Nomad. Michael
participants (26)
-
aplanas -
Arjen de Korte -
Cameron Seader -
Carlos E. R. -
Chris McGimpsey-Jones | MP Portfolio Management -
dale -
Dave Gom -
Felix Miata -
Fritz Hudnut -
Jan Engelhardt -
Jim Henderson -
Joe Salmeri -
Kilian Hanich -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Larry Len Rainey -
Lew Wolfgang -
Michael Hamilton -
Miko -
Patrick Shanahan -
Paul Lipps -
Robert Kaiser -
Roger Oberholtzer -
Simon Becherer -
Simon Lees -
Stefan Seyfried -
Xu Zhao