-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-11-06 at 15:25 -0600, Dean Hilkewich wrote:

The kernel-desktop flavor: disabled group scheduler and groups, disabled optimize for size, enabled full preemption, set HZ=1000

Yast installed kernel-default automatically on my machine, which is a desktop. Why? I wasn't asked (by YaST).

https://features.opensuse.org/305694

Those should answer your questions.

It doesn't... Too complicated and long. It is a discussion, not an explanation of what was finally done. Someone on the know should write some text in the wiki epxlaining the (dis)advantages of each kernel version and when to change the automatic selection. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkr0o8EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V+WgCbBOgcKW+DqXeRR5yrkrgLdj1K S50AnRkbms7nE3IDmswtuhQemzfvf2/0 =Kv4U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 07/11/09 09:52, Dean Hilkewich wrote:

On 11/06/2009 04:31 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Someone on the know should write some text in the wiki epxlaining the (dis)advantages of each kernel version and when to change the automatic selection.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)

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Did you do an upgrade from 11.1 or a clean install?

Dean

I have the same situation as Carlos: 11.2 automatically installed kernel-default and not the *-desktop. It was a "clean" install (on brand new HDs). Apart from the "Why did the installer do this?", how do I change to the *-desktop kernel? Uninstall the default and at the same time select desktop (and let nature take its course)? BC -- The chief cause of problems is solutions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 11/06/2009 07:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Saturday, 2009-11-07 at 11:45 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have the same situation as Carlos: 11.2 automatically installed kernel-default and not the *-desktop. It was a "clean" install (on brand new HDs).

Apart from the "Why did the installer do this?", how do I change to the *-desktop kernel? Uninstall the default and at the same time select desktop (and let nature take its course)?

Or install both and choose at boot time... but we need to know what advantages/disadvantages we get, in order to choose correctly.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)

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I do believe I outline the benefits right in the opening suggestion on openfate when I proposed it. The reduced latency allows for a more responsive feeling when being used as a desktop and presents fewer issues when it comes to items like multimedia, ogl and wine apps. Things like pulseaudio, should you choose to use it, should present less of an issue when it comes to synchronization and latency. The configuration of the desktop kernel was created to address such issues. The default kernel is more suited to a overall "one-size-fits-all" approach to a kernel that will work in a desktop/workstation/server situation but really doesn't offer the best config for the various possible roles. Since openSUSE is primarily used in a desktop scenario where bandwidth, group policies, etc were rarely needed it was decided to tune it more akin to a desktop scenario use where items like responsiveness make an impression on the end user. Out of curiousity how did you guys install (liveCD or DVD install, 32-bit or 64-bit and system configs). Dean -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 07/11/09 12:53, Basil Chupin wrote:

For me: on a 32-bit machine from the 11.2 DVD which I downloaded on 1 Nov.

BC

Forgot to mention: the CPU is AMD XP 3200+, 1.5GB RAM, 2x 500GB HDs, both drives initially formatted into partitions to accept XP (installed) but with bulk of space left on both for 11.2 which was then further partitioned and formatted by the Partitioner in 11.2. Apart from the partitioning at installation, the rest of the installation was left to 11.2. BC -- The chief cause of problems is solutions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

The desktop kernel needs AFAIR PAE support, I'm not sure your CPU has it - that might be the reason for the installation of the default one.

In general: kernel-desktop runs on "newer" hardware only, kernel-default runs also on some older,

Kernel PAE was installed on 11.1 to enable the NX/XD bit on newer machines, basically 64bit processors. The only 32bit procs that support it is the Atom, the Intel Core Solo/Duo & some of the Pentium M procs(Banias and some slower Pentium M's don't have support for it). There was a lot of discussion about how the PAE kernel wasn't very stable on some older hardware(I switched my P3 laptops to default-kernel). Personally, I'm not convinced that PAE should be enabled by default because I'm not sure it's as efficient as not using it. Very few 32bit systems actually have the ability to use more than 4GB RAM. I'm not a programmer, so I dunno. I guess in a way, PAE is kinda like the old Expanded memory system under DOS because it pages out memory from over 4GB into the 4GB range as needed(where ems pages out 64k chunks from over 1MB into the UMB area of an 8086/8088 mode system). I haven't really had time to play with 11.2 much(I finally installed RC2 on my son's machine, an AlthonXP 3200+ but never did figure out why hulu.com locks up the browsers) so I didn't notice the new kernel setup. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 08/11/09 06:54, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Saturday 07 November 2009 03:06:19 Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Forgot to mention: the CPU is AMD XP 3200+, 1.5GB RAM, 2x 500GB HDs,

The desktop kernel needs AFAIR PAE support, I'm not sure your CPU has it - that might be the reason for the installation of the default one.

In general: kernel-desktop runs on "newer" hardware only, kernel-default runs also on some older,

Andreas

Just checked the cpu I have (AMD Athlon XP 3200+) and it definitely has pae: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 mmx fxsr sse syscall mmxext 3dnowext 3dnow up (My wife's computer has the Athlon XP 2400+ installed and that too has pae - and 11.2 also installed the default kernel on her computer.) BC -- I work to live not live to work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 7:16 AM, Rob OpenSuSE

So does my ancient Celeron A's clocked at 300 Mhz.  Support of the 3rd layer of address tables (64GiB address space), isn't really of any use for deciding which kernel to install.

I have 2 Pentium Pro/200Mhz boards & chips that have PAE. It was the first chip to get it on the Intel Side. Athlon was the first AMD chip with it and the C7 was Via's. PAE is useless unless you want to run more than 4GB RAM on a 32bit system. Evidently, to enable the NX/XD bit, you have to have it enabled because it uses bit 63 of the table. However, very few 32bit chips have PAE as I noted earlier. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 11/10/2009 03:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Tuesday, 2009-11-10 at 13:37 -0500, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

enabled because it uses bit 63 of the table. However, very few 32bit chips have PAE as I noted earlier.

Mine has, and was made around 2000. Nine years ago.

Exactly. Most chips after the Pentium Pro have PAE. There are a few exceptions, but they're mostly from Via and Transmeta. -Jeff -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dean Hilkewich wrote:

On 11/06/2009 07:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

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On Saturday, 2009-11-07 at 11:45 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have the same situation as Carlos: 11.2 automatically installed kernel-default and not the *-desktop. It was a "clean" install (on brand new HDs).

Apart from the "Why did the installer do this?", how do I change to the *-desktop kernel? Uninstall the default and at the same time select desktop (and let nature take its course)?

Or install both and choose at boot time... but we need to know what advantages/disadvantages we get, in order to choose correctly.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)

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I do believe I outline the benefits right in the opening suggestion on openfate when I proposed it. The reduced latency allows for a more responsive feeling when being used as a desktop and presents fewer issues when it comes to items like multimedia, ogl and wine apps. Things like pulseaudio, should you choose to use it, should present less of an issue when it comes to synchronization and latency. The configuration of the desktop kernel was created to address such issues. The default kernel is more suited to a overall "one-size-fits-all" approach to a kernel that will work in a desktop/workstation/server situation but really doesn't offer the best config for the various possible roles. Since openSUSE is primarily used in a desktop scenario where bandwidth, group policies, etc were rarely needed it was decided to tune it more akin to a desktop scenario use where items like responsiveness make an impression on the end user.

Out of curiousity how did you guys install (liveCD or DVD install, 32-bit or 64-bit and system configs).

Dean I installed from 64-bit DVD downloaded from link on http://software.opensuse.org/developer/en

-- Russ [openSUSE 11.2 (8 2.6.31.5-0.1-default x86_64] KDE 4.3.2 release 2, Intel Core 2 Dual E7200. 4 GB DDR III GeForce 8400 GS, 320GB Disc (2) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 07/11/09 12:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Saturday, 2009-11-07 at 11:45 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have the same situation as Carlos: 11.2 automatically installed kernel-default and not the *-desktop. It was a "clean" install (on brand new HDs).

Apart from the "Why did the installer do this?", how do I change to the *-desktop kernel? Uninstall the default and at the same time select desktop (and let nature take its course)?

Or install both and choose at boot time... but we need to know what advantages/disadvantages we get, in order to choose correctly.

The way I read the reference which Dean provided, the opening statement pretty well summarises what the desktop kernel is about: QUOTE It seems to me that the current default kernels are somewhat hurting openSUSE's performance perception. Current kernel configs are OK but are not very well suited for desktop usage. In the future I would like to see a kernel package that is optimized for desktop usage. Current timer settings and no preemption really (sometimes drastically) hurts openGL performance and applications such as wine and causes alot of issues such as audio studdering. It would be nice to see a separate desktop performance kernel package with options such as Preemption model set to Preemptable Kenel (low-latency Desktop) and Timer Frequency Set to 1000 Hz, HPET support, Tickless System, disable optimize for size, disable Control Group support and disable Group CPU scheduler. You could also disable items and modules that are extremely rare in a desktop environment such as ATM support, Infiniband etc etc as these are not typically used in a desktop scenario which would be a large majority of openSUSE users. Further performance enhancements would also be done through out the system aimed at desktop use as well such as disabling barriers (even making it a simple checkmark option in the partitioner). Such optimizations for desktop usage can overcome openSUSE's reputation as being slower then the other mainstream distro's. The kernel settings alone can make up to a 30-40% increase in framerates in wine games for example and can cure alot of hiccups in multimedia apps. UNQUOTE After the above, from the verbal exchanges by the various Initials I could gather that the pae kernel will only be installed if there is a flag set to indicate that you have at least 4GB of RAM installed and that a server kernel will be installed if you are running a server; after that what is called a default kernel and what is called a legacy kernel becomes kinda confusing - except perhaps that the legacy kernel may be the one which is installed on i386 machines. But don't take my word about any of this! :-) BC -- The chief cause of problems is solutions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 10 November 2009 17:46:18 Jeff Mahoney wrote:

On 11/06/2009 08:49 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

[description of kernel-desktop]

...

UNQUOTE

After the above, from the verbal exchanges by the various Initials I could gather that the pae kernel will only be installed if there is a flag set to indicate that you have at least 4GB of RAM installed and that a server kernel will be installed if you are running a server; after that what is called a default kernel and what is called a legacy kernel becomes kinda confusing - except perhaps that the legacy kernel may be the one which is installed on i386 machines. But don't take my word about any of this! :-)

Huh. It was supposed to install kernel-desktop automatically, but I just installed 11.2 GM on my Aspire One and it installed kernel-default. Not even kernel-pae. Hi Jeff,

I hope you filed a bugreport with details ;) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On 07/11/09 12:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Saturday, 2009-11-07 at 11:45 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have the same situation as Carlos: 11.2 automatically installed kernel-default and not the *-desktop. It was a "clean" install (on brand new HDs).

Apart from the "Why did the installer do this?", how do I change to the *-desktop kernel? Uninstall the default and at the same time select desktop (and let nature take its course)?

Or install both and choose at boot time... but we need to know what advantages/disadvantages we get, in order to choose correctly. A bit late in responding to this, sorry, but, *YES*, we all need to know what each kernel is aimed at providing.

(I also suspect that the people who write the installation script for oS would also like to know.... :-) ) BC -- I work to live not live to work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 11/06/2009 04:10 PM, upscope wrote:

On Friday 06 November 2009 01:20:26 pm upscope wrote:

...

On Sunday I installed RC2 from DVD. Today I noticed I have kernel-desktop instead of -default. Why?

Can I just select the default kernel from YaSt and change it? What is the differences?

Thanks for any response.

Thanks for the quick responses. I will leave it as desktop for now but may need to change if I get to hosting my wife's web page on my system. Depends on traffic she gets.

Thanks again.

If your anticipating that kind of traffic to justify the need for that much throughput then you should be using a dedicated server anyways. Dean -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org