Carlos! You are a life-saver. I was going crazy wondering how I had broken my email....ARG!!! On 2021/09/10 13:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 10/09/2021 22.07, L A Walsh wrote:

...

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:51:33 -0700 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON(at)Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org> To: <suse(at)tlinx.org>

The original message was received at Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:51:25 -0700 from Athenae [192.168.3.12]

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- <factory(at)lists.opensuse.org> (reason: 550 5.7.1 Spam identified (10.1/5.0))

Happened to me as well. I retried with another address and it worked.

On Mon, 2021-09-13 at 08:51 +0200, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

On Fri, 2021-09-10 at 13:07 -0700, L A Walsh wrote:

...

Subject: Re: New Tumbleweed snapshot 20210908 released!, and first try spammy bounce?

you're not allowed to use this subject - the announcement mails state:

Please do not reply to this email to report issues, rather file a bug on bugzilla.opensuse.org. For more information on filing bugs please see https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports

Replies (at least as long as the subject is kept) are declined.

If this is so (pretty harsh IMO), it should be clearly stated. Rather than "Please do not reply ..." it should say "Do not reply .... replies with the subject kept will be declined". Regards Martin

Hi On 9/13/21 22:56, L A Walsh wrote:

On 2021/09/13 00:51, Martin Wilck wrote:

...

On Mon Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

...

you're not allowed to use this subject - the announcement mails state:

Please do not reply to this email to report issues, rather file a bug on bugzilla.opensuse.org. For more information on filing bugs please see https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports

...

...

Replies (at least as long as the subject is kept) are declined.

If this is so (pretty harsh IMO), it should be clearly stated. Rather than "Please do not reply ..." it should say "Do not reply .... replies with the subject kept will be declined".

---

    This is a bug.  It casts the original announcement maker as a victim who has no better way to handle email than to cast replies as "spammers" and bounce their email.  This is unacceptable.

The problem is with whoever is sending the email taking personal umbrage at getting emails about their "automated announcement";

    If you don't like receiving responses to that email then use a different email address to send out the announcement, where replies can be parsed with the most minor of AI semantics     You rejected an email that didn't fall into your "guidelines"[sic]. You quoted your rules:

...

...

Please do not reply to this email to report issues, rather file a bug on bugzilla.opensuse.org.

---

    I was not reporting an issue nor did I have a bug.  So the directive not to reply did not apply.

...

...

For more information on filing bugs please see https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports

---

    My email had nothing to do with submitting a bug -- it wasn't even addressed to 'you' (Dimstar), as this one partially is.  Please stop intercepting list email assuming it is directed to you when you aren't even the address list.

Please don't shoot the messenger, Dimstar is not intercepting any list email (I don't know if thats even possible). This is something that we as a project have chosen to set up on the mailing list server. It would be nice if we didn't need to have such rules but unfortunately given that multiple people can't follow simple instructions the rule was added sometime back.

    If it is your intention to *HELP* redirect email then reply with an email saying so, DON'T just cast it off as SPAM, which throws away valid email -- whether or not it was intended to be some bug report or not.

    I strongly suggest you use a fake/official email that explains things in detail in the response rather than rejecting emails as "spam", because this was/is a case of it being a valid email that had nothing to do with your "banned" response case.

Unfortunately I don't know if we can set up anything that complex on the list server, on the other hand adding a regexp to the list spam filter is pretty simple. Is it 100% the best solution probably not, is it the best we can do with the tooling we have probably. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 14/09/2021 08.22, Martin Wilck wrote:

On Tue, 2021-09-14 at 10:56 +0930, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Please don't shoot the messenger, Dimstar is not intercepting any list email (I don't know if thats even possible). This is something that we as a project have chosen to set up on the mailing list server. It would be nice if we didn't need to have such rules but unfortunately given that multiple people can't follow simple instructions the rule was added sometime back.

Fair enough but again, the text in the not-to-be-replied-to email and more importantly, the explanatory text in the reject message (if that's possible, I dunno) should spell out clearly what's going on.

The text in the initial mail could be reworded, but AFAIK the reject message can not be tailored to the "spam" cause. Not optimal, but rejecting as spam was the closest thing to the requirement that could be found. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))

Ben Holmes wrote:

On 14/9/21 11:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Unfortunately I don't know if we can set up anything that complex on the list server, on the other hand adding a regexp to the list spam filter is pretty simple. Is it 100% the best solution probably not, is it the best we can do with the tooling we have probably.

Just out of curiosity, what is the regex?

"^New Tumbleweed snapshot [0-9]+ released"

Does it only check the subject line?

Yep.

Sometimes, people may want to comment on the packages being updated as a whole (such as versioning etc), or they want to comment on the actual email itself (maybe a layout or formatting error, it is [somewhat?] system generated after all). It seems hitting reply may be the first thought regardless of the "please do not reply" in there. Can this be made a little more gentle (and accurate, it is not spam, it is a beach of policy)?

There are three conditions to be met for such a mail to be rejected: if "subject matches regex" and "list is factory" and "sender is not dimstar" then reject. The easiest place to do that is in SpamAssassin, which we run on our two mailservers. It would be nice if the reject was accompanied by a gentle explanation, and I did try - the SpamAssassin rule has the appropriate explanation for the rule. Unfortunately, I overlooked that this text is not provided for the sender when we reject :-( -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

On 2021/09/13 18:26, Simon Lees wrote:

Unfortunately I don't know if we can set up anything that complex on the list server,

Can't set up anything that complex....on a computer that can run can beat humans at running chess, among other tasks that have typically been only associated with human "intelligence"?

on the other hand adding a regexp to the list spam filter is pretty simple. Is it 100% the best solution probably not, is it the best we can do with the tooling we have probably.

You do know that you are allowed to run more than one tool in a chain? If email comes in for a list, it can be funneled to a socket where a tool can check the Regex for special processing instead of calling SA. SA can be called on other messages, but can be avoided for messages meeting any other criteria. =========================================== On 2021/09/14 01:08, Per Jessen wrote:

There are three conditions to be met for such a mail to be rejected:

if "subject matches regex" and "list is factory" and "sender is not dimstar" then reject.

So just changing 'T' to 'F' in Fumbleweed would allow it, ...or adding a space at the end, ...or using an alt for the listname (would have to investigate that, but it seemed like one of them worked), ...or putting dimstar's email address in the From line ...or...probably many others... And before anyone says any of those would not be ethical or a good thing to do -- we are talking about a response to something that is certainly, NOT a good thing to do and is also of questionable ethics, though most certainly, I think the actual reason at work, here, is laziness (including most of the above "workarounds", but they are in response to a particular "solution"). Certainly telling a random Jane that their response about release versions is 'spam' is unquestionably wrong, and may be worse than no solution at all. Using the [il]logic often used on me, if we allow or do 'X' for 1 person then we have to expect that ALL will do it. Right....you expect that everyone will respond to such a problem by trying 'N' different ways, as well as working to find out why, as well as pointing out what a horrible method that is, and how many other solutions could be used or made available? And no, you don't leave the current method in as a stop-gap until a better one is put in place, because if it isn't producing an annoyance or pain to whoever implemented the stop-gap, then even if emotional/personality factors prevent completion of a better solution, then environmental factors (other things needing to be done) will _seem_ more important. HOWEVER, if the irritant is left in place, then it's importance, relevant, to other issues won't necessarily allow for it to be ignored. What might be the easiest is that if the Regex matches, then check the body for some likely words, like 'bug', crash' blank-screen, "won't start", restore...etc, and send them a response with a link to the bugDB, with various, likely, fields filled out (proj: TW, ver: the date of the TW release (or one of the 4 I mentioned :-)), etc. Tell them to fill out other help fields, like reproducer etc. If it doesn't have any of those words in the body, send it to the list for triage 1st instead of bouncing it as spam (unless body contains references to Uganda, prize, etc). It doesn't have to be perfect, but it certainly would be be better than tossing it back as spam which had me looking at my what might have changed on my local setup and no clue that it might be something on opensnoozy's end.

On 14.09.2021 19:33, L A Walsh wrote:

=========================================== On 2021/09/14 01:08, Per Jessen wrote:

...

There are three conditions to be met for such a mail to be rejected:

if "subject matches regex" and    "list is factory" and    "sender is not dimstar" then reject.

---

So just changing 'T' to 'F' in Fumbleweed would allow it, ...or adding a space at the end, ...or using an alt for the listname (would have to investigate that, but it seemed like one of them worked), ...or putting dimstar's email address in the From line ...or...probably many others...

And before anyone says any of those would not be ethical or a good thing to do

This is actually what you are supposed to do in this case - change subject to describe the reason you reply and trim content to leave only relevant packages.

That's why people start top posting, to make sure the important stuff is read first with a longer and longer untrimmed history being kept below. Doctors & Lawyers, among the highest paid professionals always put the most recent stuff on top to save time. On 2021/09/14 11:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 14/09/2021 19.53, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

On 14.09.2021 19:33, L A Walsh wrote:

...

=========================================== On 2021/09/14 01:08, Per Jessen wrote:

...

There are three conditions to be met for such a mail to be rejected:

if "subject matches regex" and "list is factory" and "sender is not dimstar" then reject.

---

So just changing 'T' to 'F' in Fumbleweed would allow it, ...or adding a space at the end, ...or using an alt for the listname (would have to investigate that, but it seemed like one of them worked), ...or putting dimstar's email address in the From line ...or...probably many others...

And before anyone says any of those would not be ethical or a good thing to do This is actually what you are supposed to do in this case - change subject to describe the reason you reply and trim content to leave only relevant packages.

And remember, L A, that this filter was enacted because the replies to these posts (New Tumbleweed snapshot...) were a big annoyance.

We could have a long thread with subject "New Tumbleweed snapshot..." talking about foo broken package, instead of changing the subject to "Foo package is broken (in this release ###)". And worse, there were posts with just 3 lines of text, but containing the 100 kilobytes of the release text as quoted material.

As people kept forgetting to trim the quotes and change the subject, it was asked from the mail admins to block the replies.

On Wednesday 2021-09-15 01:38, James Knott wrote:

On 2021-09-14 6:46 p.m., L A Walsh wrote:

...

That's why people start top posting, to make sure the important stuff is read first [...]

I thought it was because they used Outlook, which top posts replies.

That behavior is not specific to Outlook. If there is one thing that is more prevalant on the Internet than cat pics, it's email posting etiquette/documentation (and why the cursor may be located at the top). You should make use of the available information.

The argument you made in support for top-posting and which is reproduced below, is one I cannot corroborate. Taking you up on your claim that doctors place information in a most-recently-used order, I can say that I have never witnessed my doctor attempting to top-post today's findings somewhere on the paper slip above yesterday's findings, for that would mean yesterday's notes would have to start near the end of the page to even have sufficient space to do the top-posting in the first place. Anyway... This very e-mail of mine uses top-posting, and with it, I mean to demonstrate that top-posting itself is not the problem, it is how people formulate their reply. Readers of my first paragraph will no doubt find that, despite having not been presented with a quote of your statements in the first screenful, they get an idea of what I am replying to. It is not even all that special of a technique; it is commonly applied in paper-based exchanges (still a thing! even for lawyers.) But what am I to expect of today's populace who know nothing but instant messaging. On Wednesday 2021-09-15 00:46, L A Walsh wrote:

That's why people start top posting, to make sure the important stuff is read first with a longer and longer untrimmed history being kept below. Doctors & Lawyers, among the highest paid professionals always put the most recent stuff on top to save time.

On 2021/09/14 11:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 14/09/2021 19.53, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

On 14.09.2021 19:33, L A Walsh wrote:

...

=========================================== On 2021/09/14 01:08, Per Jessen wrote:

...

There are three conditions to be met for such a mail to be rejected:

if "subject matches regex" and "list is factory" and "sender is not dimstar" then reject.

---

So just changing 'T' to 'F' in Fumbleweed would allow it, ...or adding a space at the end, ...or using an alt for the listname (would have to investigate that, but it seemed like one of them worked), ...or putting dimstar's email address in the From line ...or...probably many others...

And before anyone says any of those would not be ethical or a good thing to do This is actually what you are supposed to do in this case - change subject to describe the reason you reply and trim content to leave only relevant packages.

And remember, L A, that this filter was enacted because the replies to these posts (New Tumbleweed snapshot...) were a big annoyance.

We could have a long thread with subject "New Tumbleweed snapshot..." talking about foo broken package, instead of changing the subject to "Foo package is broken (in this release ###)". And worse, there were posts with just 3 lines of text, but containing the 100 kilobytes of the release text as quoted material.

As people kept forgetting to trim the quotes and change the subject, it was asked from the mail admins to block the replies.

On 15/09/2021 00.46, L A Walsh wrote:

That's why people start top posting, to make sure the important stuff is read first with a longer and longer untrimmed history being kept below. Doctors & Lawyers, among the highest paid professionals always put the most recent stuff on top to save time.

And that custom gets people here pissed. Always respect the local culture. For example, if you dare to reply to one of the "New Tumbleweed snapshot..." posts, using top-post and leaving the original text intact and complete, some people here would have you shot. Some people did. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))

Am Mittwoch, 15. September 2021, 13:40:55 CEST schrieb Martin Wilck:

On Tue, 2021-09-14 at 15:46 -0700, L A Walsh wrote:

...

That's why people start top posting, to make sure the important stuff is read first with a longer and longer untrimmed history being kept below.

My €.02: Not trimming the history to the actually relevant parts you're replying to when bottom-posting is just as bad as top-posting.

Yes, that is why it is mentioned in Netiquette https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Quoting Cheers Axel

On 15/09/2021 00.31, L A Walsh wrote:

On 2021/09/14 10:53, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

This is actually what you are supposed to do in this case - change subject to describe the reason you reply and trim content to leave only relevant packages.

---

    I will send the original message and you tell me why it is wrong.

Simple: you did not change the subject.

...

---- On 2021/09/14 11:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

As people kept forgetting to trim the quotes and change the subject, it was asked from the mail admins to block the replies.

---

Why should my note that is referring to the subject be changed to a different subject -- that's like misquoting.

For the reason that it is the policy. Spanish saying, with variances using father, teacher, boss, etc: - Article one: the boss is always right. - Article two: in the case the boss is not right, the first article will be applied. meaning: If you don't understand, don't try to understand, just follow the rules: - Don't ever reply to the posts here "New Tumbleweed snapshot..." - If you have to reply to one such post, just change the subject, and aggressively trim the quotes. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))