-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 В Sun, 07 Dec 2014 12:32:13 +0100 "Bernhard M. Wiedemann" пишет:

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=906592 s2disk

Was not it fixed in the meantime? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlSERl8ACgkQR6LMutpd94wDVwCgyLyu3z3tINohxOk/nKG6ZNpk zD4AnA2M0sJL9aQWX/aBVhh1DW6ae9GM =Hxgw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�

Am 07.12.2014 um 13:21 schrieb Andrei Borzenkov:

В Sun, 07 Dec 2014 12:32:13 +0100 "Bernhard M. Wiedemann" пишет:

...

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=906592 s2disk

Was not it fixed in the meantime?

Yes, fixed: Information for patch openSUSE-2014-738: ---------------------------------------- Name: openSUSE-2014-738 Version: 1 [...] Summary: recommended update for dracut Description: This recommended update for dracut fixes the following issue: - ensure root fsck runs after dracut-pre-mount.service which calls resume (bnc#906592) Thanks again :-) seife -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/07/2014 12:21 PM, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

On Sunday 07 December 2014 15.01:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-12-07 12:32, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:

There's something you could do, find who make changes in the rpm changelog located the package on obs, use "users" tab and pick email of bugowner / maintainers try to add them in cc list I have used this method and found it easier to get a response.

Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 08 December 2014 05.00:10 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-12-07 18:21, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

On Sunday 07 December 2014 15.01:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

You never live the case as bugowner you ask information to user and never never get it :-)

Oh, I do. I "own" very few bugs, but I do ;-) I contribute as translator.

...

...

I have bugs opened for years. Eventually, somebody comes and just closes them saying that the openSUSE version I reported against does not exist, and please try on a new version - without anybody ever doing anything about the bug. I doubt the person closing it even reads it, maybe it is a script doing the closing.

Find friends, and organize a bug squashing to confirm each bug open and also participate to the next bug squash day organized.

Pointless.

Those pesky bugs do not need extra confirmation, there are logs with detailed and hard to obtain information, requiring things like modifying the kernel, maybe place video cameras or hook a second computer to capture kernel messages over a serial port...

It just needs a developer to get inside and code, or ask pertinent questions, provide patches that I can install and test and give further info. I have done everything possible from my side.

How can dev fix a problem that can't be reproduced ... That's why adding people with same trouble or similar can really improve the situation

Others are quite evident from the bug report and do not need anybody else confirming that they also get it. Specially if the logs says: this is a bug, please report me.

Finding friends looks to me "political lobbying". It is corruption. It is out of place in engineering and science, IMNSHO. If it is a bug, it is a bug, period. Perhaps a crate of beer will help to solve my bugs, leaving other people bugs unsolved? >:-)

...

...

Some of these bugs took me days, even weeks, to try collect the data.

Some of these automatically closed bugs are still present on the new releases (sometimes obviously so), so I reopen them. And they often are eventually closed again without activity on the next release.

Quality of the report, wrong product ?

Nope.

If it were, the bugowners/asignees/whatever could simply ask for clarification. I'm well known, I believe. I can make mistakes, I'm human, but every report I write has a lot of effort and care behind. They can be mistaken, but I do my best so that they are good quality.

Then perhaps a list of concerned bugs would help to understand the why and what.

...

...

It is very discouraging. So each time I report less and less.

There's something you could do, find who make changes in the rpm changelog located the package on obs, use "users" tab and pick email of bugowner / maintainers try to add them in cc list

Not my job.

I'm not going to install obs in order to find the maintainer. It is a large package and needs an account, and some reading documents.

The only thing you need is a web browser and you openSUSE login. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's the screening or triage team job, not users job. Guess who is triage/screening team : you and me and others its not only "their" responsibility.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

-- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-12-08 11:32, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:

On 2014-12-08 05:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-12-07 18:21, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

On Sunday 07 December 2014 15.01:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Some of these bugs took me days, even weeks, to try collect the data.

Some of these automatically closed bugs are still present on the new releases (sometimes obviously so), so I reopen them. And they often are eventually closed again without activity on the next release.

please give some links, so I can have a look

Let me see if I can locate some samples [...] ok. For instance, 765084, was bureaucratically closed. I spent many hours of effort on it, even wrote changes to the kernel. It is just an example, I do not want that particular one reopened. My memory is not what it was, I simply located that one first. Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:12:51 +0000 Subject: [Bug 745024] Kernel vmlinuz-3.1.9-1.4 update failure was bureaucratically closed on Fri, 8 Aug 2014, a year later. Never really solved, just closed. Of course, it is now impossible and pointless to try to solve. Or this one, a curious one for the community: Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 04:05:59 +0000 Subject: [Bug 730912] Gramar rules need to be changed for "openSUSE". This one was about LO forcing grammar rules to write "OpenSUSE" at the start of sentences. Was bureaucratically closed on Mon, 28 Jul 2014, and I reopened it a month later, because the "bug" is of course still present. No, I do not intend to pursue the matter upstream myself, I can not convince anybody there. Some heavy weight from Novell/SUSE/openSUSE has to do that. This bugzilla tracks the situation. (I thought that Novell was a big contributor to OOo previously... :-? They should have the force to make this change) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlSHjwkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XYWACfRdhdvNMlRckgDNVH3azDhDRK 1aIAn27mLR3Up0WM3xhQEm0/lZ1NTEbY =0tCq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 01:08:42AM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-12-08 11:32, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:

...

On 2014-12-08 05:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-12-07 18:21, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

On Sunday 07 December 2014 15.01:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Some of these bugs took me days, even weeks, to try collect the data.

Some of these automatically closed bugs are still present on the new releases (sometimes obviously so), so I reopen them. And they often are eventually closed again without activity on the next release.

please give some links, so I can have a look

Let me see if I can locate some samples [...] ok.

For instance, 765084, was bureaucratically closed. I spent many hours of effort on it, even wrote changes to the kernel.

Dude, Jeff made the usual post release cleanup. It had been your opportunity to evaluate this with the 12.2 release. This unfortunately happens quite often and everyone of us has to shift reports from one release to the next.

It is just an example, I do not want that particular one reopened. My memory is not what it was, I simply located that one first.

Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:12:51 +0000 Subject: [Bug 745024] Kernel vmlinuz-3.1.9-1.4 update failure

was bureaucratically closed on Fri, 8 Aug 2014, a year later. Never really solved, just closed. Of course, it is now impossible and pointless to try to solve.

Again, this isn't "bureaucratically". It's the normal workflow. All you had to do is to test it with 12.2 and add update the report if it's fixed or if it still exists.

Or this one, a curious one for the community:

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 04:05:59 +0000 Subject: [Bug 730912] Gramar rules need to be changed for "openSUSE".

This one was about LO forcing grammar rules to write "OpenSUSE" at the start of sentences. Was bureaucratically closed on Mon, 28 Jul 2014, and I reopened it a month later, because the "bug" is of course still present.

And you've read comment #2? No, please don't answer to this question. It was a rhetorical one.

No, I do not intend to pursue the matter upstream myself, I can not convince anybody there. Some heavy weight from Novell/SUSE/openSUSE has to do that. This bugzilla tracks the situation. (I thought that Novell was a big contributor to OOo previously... :-? They should have the force to make this change)

Comment #6 is the usual, I expect some automated post release cleanup Andreas did. And the value of comment #7 is close to 0 in the light of comment #2. Sorry, it's not this easy to blame others. Thanks, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-12-11 15:15, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 10.12.2014 um 01:21 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

Took me many days to investigate and report, with some help from the mail list. No one has even commented or asked for more info or anything at all, after reporting in bugzilla...

And it is a BUG, because the kernel log says it is a bug:

[18892.976044] BUG: unable to handle kernel paging request at ffffc90012825250

There is no more confirmation needed. It IS a BUG.

Yes. But it's apparently a bad pointer dereference in the timer code => most likely a nasty race condition. That is usually not easily solved by "just looking at logs and code". Sorry.

No, what I mean is that it is easy to identify that there is a bug without me having to find other people with the same problem - not that it is easy to solve. In this case, I was for weeks able to reproduce the failure at will and obtain more data, if they asked. They did not. They ignored me.

Now I know that reporting bugs against distro kernels is sometimes hard, simply because it is often the case that the distro's kernel maintainers are also busy with developing the mainline kernel. So the first thing I do is: I try if the bug is still present in the latest Kernel:Stable kernel, and if so, if it's still present in the latest Kernel:HEAD kernel.

For that, they could ASK. As I said in the report, I had a test setup rigged up, found the problem, investigated, for several days, maybe weeks, and reported. In deference to bugzilla people, I kept that setup untouched for some weeks, then I had to move on and use the hard disk. Nobody was interested. It affects reiserfs, and that is doomed.

For this particular bug, it might just be bad luck that reiserfs is no longer really actively maintained by anoyone? I don't know.

Possibly. But you see, I spent a long time investigating an issue and obtaining data, having to rig a second computer to record the logs during the crash, and first having to find how to do that, and all for nothing. Happened a few times to me. Which is the main point: it is discouraging to report in Bugzilla if nobody listens. Not even a thankyou, we read you, but we are understaffed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlSJvzcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VfIACfcLhC88xCrqCKdoZU6Pvyg9fo 2vQAnifRjq7Ew5e1F9JC8Snw0oWjesaA =HtaF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Again, this isn't "bureaucratically". It's the normal workflow.

All you had to do is to test it with 12.2 and add update the report if it's fixed or if it still exists.

No, that is not the issue. The issue is that, after the reporter spending time and effort on reporting, nothing is done for months or years, then the bug report is removed in the spring cleanup, because it is old. Ok, because that release is no longer supported. That's the point, that nobody did anything on it for many months.

The point is not that the reporter can check whether the issue is still present on the next release.

I've been on both sides of this. As a bug reporter, I want the issue addressed, and silence is very annoying. After long silences, a post merely asking to confirm whether the issue still exists (as if it were to vanish spontaneously for no reason) is also extremely annoying. But as a developer, I know bugs do vanish, seemingly unrelated changes sometimes fix issues, and when someone points out a bug in an old version I immediately search my memory for seemingly related commits that might affect the bug, and end up asking to reproduce the issue on the latest version. As a developer, that saves us lots of blind searching, which is also particularly annoying and exhausting. They key is balance... not asking for it when you can test yourself, not getting annoyed when asked to reproduce something and just do it unless it's very difficult, etc. Sometimes it's good to know both sides. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11 December 2014 at 17:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

No, please don't answer to this question. It was a rhetorical one.

But I will: it is not my issue, it is the openSUSE organization issue. I only point out its presence, I don't personally care.

Carlos, you are an openSUSE Member By definition, that makes you a member of 'the openSUSE organization' and therefore not only in position to influence, implement, and change things (everyone, not just oopenSUSE Members have that ability), but have proven your ability to contribute for a long period of time, sustained and substantially, and therefore should feel some responsibility towards doing so. Statements like "I only point out its presence, I don't personally care." doesn't help anybody. If you really don't care, I'd recommend you stop commenting If you do actually care, I'd recommend listening to much of the good feedback you've received on your points so far, absorb, and then propose and/or implement actual practical improvements for the project Expecting our contributors to answer every single bug is not reasonable. Expecting them to be able to magically divine whether a bug is valid or not when they do get time to review it is also not reasonable. Part of good bug reporting is championing and being persistent with those bugs that matter to you, making sure they get attention, and being prompt in responding to questions when asked about the bug. Failure to do that, is just going to make it easier for those bugs to slip through the cracks, and that's a responsibility of the bug reporter just as much as the maintainer of the bug-impacted package. Like Claudio said, the key is balance, please reflect on everyone's responses to you in this thread and try and find a more balanced view. Regards, Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 11 December 2014 18.05:51 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-12-11 17:30, Claudio Freire wrote:

...

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

Yes, I can understand all that.

...

They key is balance... not asking for it when you can test yourself, not getting annoyed when asked to reproduce something and just do it unless it's very difficult, etc.

Attempting to reproduce that reiserfs bug requires me buying a new 3 TB hard disk, and doing nothing else but test, for days. So yes, it is hard and expensive. I kept the setup available for at least two weeks, then I filled the disk. If someone had asked something in time, I would have delayed as long as necessary. With no action, I had to move on...

Maybe, just maybe, I could try under vmware player and assigning a new 2TB disk I have available. But what for? It will be again ignored. Waste of time.

The "no response" is very frustrating for reporters. Years ago I made tons of reports. Now perhaps a dozen a year.

Yet I encourage others to report... maybe they have more luck.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Funky your "perfect" bug report is just lacking critical information like hardware information kernel version and so. I was interested to try to reproduce next week-end, but now I'm sure it will not resolve your main problem. Please read, re-read again the mail Richard has sent. -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:28 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

On Thursday 11 December 2014 18.05:51 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-12-11 17:30, Claudio Freire wrote:

...

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

Yes, I can understand all that.

...

They key is balance... not asking for it when you can test yourself, not getting annoyed when asked to reproduce something and just do it unless it's very difficult, etc.

Attempting to reproduce that reiserfs bug requires me buying a new 3 TB hard disk, and doing nothing else but test, for days. So yes, it is hard and expensive. I kept the setup available for at least two weeks, then I filled the disk. If someone had asked something in time, I would have delayed as long as necessary. With no action, I had to move on...

Maybe, just maybe, I could try under vmware player and assigning a new 2TB disk I have available. But what for? It will be again ignored. Waste of time.

The "no response" is very frustrating for reporters. Years ago I made tons of reports. Now perhaps a dozen a year.

Yet I encourage others to report... maybe they have more luck.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Funky your "perfect" bug report is just lacking critical information like hardware information kernel version and so.

Please Bruno, this is not about the quality of an individual report.

Besides, it is often difficult for a reporter to know what information to provide. That is really up to the other side to determine and ask for.

And in a timely manner. Reproduceability is limited in time. That should probably be a top priority: gathering all the facts in time, even if the bug itself is left for later, asking all the relevant questions promptly would help a bunch. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-12-12 08:28, Per Jessen wrote:

Bruno Friedmann wrote:

Please Bruno, this is not about the quality of an individual report.

Besides, it is often difficult for a reporter to know what information to provide. That is really up to the other side to determine and ask for.

Indeed! - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlSLTdwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XEZQCfYIL4ywSXoqVJpJxvqDhsFiqI YyAAniMY07uMPzxW2v0itDZ7Pe2qH3WX =xRre -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-12-11 18:30, Richard Brown wrote:

On 11 December 2014 at 17:09, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

...

No, please don't answer to this question. It was a rhetorical one.

But I will: it is not my issue, it is the openSUSE organization issue. I only point out its presence, I don't personally care.

Carlos, you are an openSUSE Member

By definition, that makes you a member of 'the openSUSE organization' and therefore not only in position to influence, implement, and change things (everyone, not just oopenSUSE Members have that ability), but have proven your ability to contribute for a long period of time, sustained and substantially, and therefore should feel some responsibility towards doing so.

Statements like "I only point out its presence, I don't personally care." doesn't help anybody. If you really don't care, I'd recommend you stop commenting

Don't take it out of context, because that sentence is about a very precise bug: that LibreOffice forces "openSUSE" to be written as "OpenSUSE" at the start of a sentence. I don't personally care about that particular problem, I only reported its existence. And I can not possibly do anything about that issue. It is not my field. Don't blame me, developers often say the same about why they do this or that. So can I. Or they don't say it, but act it. I'm sincere. The issue came out on a mail thread, and I took upon me to report it. As simple as that. Report as in there being a Bugzilla that tracks its existence, for as long as the issue is present. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlSLUAwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WqvACglMxmj1PNtj3U381BNMJiv0SO f50An1m87R4bZogfOo/gQpY0XM6fqGBr =QXuk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org