-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-23 09:20, Thomas Langkamp wrote:

I am a user (not a developer) and I am confused because of the lack of documentation of features. You cannot overloock that there are priorities in yast/software-management, so you need to know how to use them best or they should be hidden behind an "expert-button" or so, and even then they need documentation. I admit there are 2 centences about priorities in Yast/repo-management if you click "Help", but they do not tell why one would use priorities or how they are used best in which situation.

I understand that in the case of tumbleweed the priorities are a moot point. You are supposed to do a "dup --from tumbleweed", so any package you had installed from packman will be replaced, regardless of the priority packman has. If you do a plain "dup" without saying "from tumbleweed" then priorities are a concern - but the wiki says not to do it if you have extra repos. So indeed using packman with tumbleweed is a concern. You have to do a second update run switching multimedia back to packman. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/lqrcACgkQIvFNjefEBxq2rgCfZssfR+4r1DKkT43E1U9zvzaI g3sAn1REAjciOHqTriacmrsZwxlggsvJ =gCoT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dear list, I am not a subscriber but follow you since Gregs first TW and am a loving 12+ years suse user. Still, I am not an admin nor a dev, just a bloody user == noob. In light of the (third recent) discussion about zypper up / dup I want to sumarize the results. And I want to beg you to take actions on them, to make suse more noob-friendly - because noobs may become the future suse devs. Here my humble wishlist which applies for TW & Leap: - during installation or directly after the installation (e.g. via a desktop-icon named "upgrade multimedia / codecs"): let the user opt-in to packman-repo via asking him if he needs full multimedia capabilities (currently this is hidden in "yast / repos / add community repo" and only available for 13.2) - when opting-in to packman: automagically add packman with a 98 priority & allow vendor change once & automatically apply zypper up or dup afterwards (those more knowledgable should still be enabled to change priority / vendor change of course; this is about sane defaults for noobs) - install recommends: only once during installation as default - automatically update/grade the OS daily: by executing zypper up or dup in the background (via cron-job or graphical utility?) AFAIK apper still cannot propose solutions for conflicts and thus might not be feasible for this job. - Require minimal user intervention for the update/grade: require sudo password if new software is installed, but not when existing software is updated; but let the user know if he needs to restart or log-off. - partialy unrelated: let flash stay for the noobs, those more knowledgable can uninstall / block it - what can I contribute? I would love to update the wiki accordingly Please do it for us noobs. Remember, noobs can become future suse-admins. The more we attract, the higher the chance. I love suse. Cheers, tomtomme -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 14.07.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Richard Brown:

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- during installation or directly after the installation (e.g. via a desktop-icon named "upgrade multimedia / codecs"): let the user opt-in to packman-repo via asking him if he needs full multimedia capabilities (currently this is hidden in "yast / repos / add community repo" and only available for 13.2) Sadly, as described here, this would make openSUSE liable for any

On 14 July 2015 at 11:25, Thomas Langkamp wrote: patent infringement by encouraging our users to install patent encumbered software, or possibly even guilty of "facilitation of crime"

Thanks Richard for your reply :) Are you saying that there is a difference between providing "yast / repos / add community repo" and the same functionality as a desktop icon? Interesting. But Why? Only because the one is more hidden than the other? I cannot imagine how this would make a difference in court, but I am no lawyer also. So what about my other points? - when adding packman: automagically add packman with a 98 priority & allow vendor change once & automatically apply zypper up or dup afterwards (those more knowledgable should still be enabled to change priority / vendor change of course; this is about sane defaults for noobs) - install recommends: only once during installation as default - automatically update/grade the OS daily: by executing zypper up or dup in the background (via cron-job or graphical utility?) AFAIK apper still cannot propose solutions for conflicts and thus might not be feasible for this job. - Require minimal user intervention for the update/grade: require sudo password if new software is installed, but not when existing software is updated; but let the user know if he needs to restart or log-off. - partialy unrelated: let flash stay for the noobs, those more knowledgable can uninstall / block it - what can I contribute? I would love to update the wiki accordingly Please do it for us noobs :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:08:45 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On 2015-07-14 11:25, Thomas Langkamp wrote:

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- automatically update/grade the OS daily: by executing zypper up or dup in the background (via cron-job or graphical utility?) AFAIK apper still cannot propose solutions for conflicts and thus might not be feasible for this job.

Never automatically.

Why not for the average joe user? Windows been doing this a long time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/14/2015 07:42 AM, yac wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:08:45 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On 2015-07-14 11:25, Thomas Langkamp wrote:

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- automatically update/grade the OS daily: by executing zypper up or dup in the background (via cron-job or graphical utility?) AFAIK apper still cannot propose solutions for conflicts and thus might not be feasible for this job.

Never automatically.

Why not for the average joe user? Windows been doing this a long time.

Short answer, this is not windows. Second, any update could make the system unbootable due to third party repos being configured. -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

It would seem part of the suggestion could be solved by allowing the priority to be set in a .repo file and make that the suggested path for adding packman (in wiki and elsewhere). ie a file like http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/boombatower:/openage/openSUS... [home_boombatower_openage] name=openage (openSUSE_Tumbleweed) type=rpm-md baseurl=http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/boombatower:/openage/openSUS... gpgcheck=1 gpgkey=http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/boombatower:/openage/openSUS... enabled=1 <> <-- add this Perhaps it is already supported? If so then simply suggesting on packman list to provide such a file with configured priority. The docs could also be updated to include the highly recommended zypper dup --from packman once step. Also would be nifty if that priority could be altered on any OBS repository so project maintainers can set a priority that makes sense as described in the other thread. (perhaps already available?) Another slick addition would be to add a --priority option to `zypper ar` so it could be documented with priority instead of requiring an `mr` step to change it after adding. I would actually be interested in seeing if I could tackle adding such a feature. Note my packman setup instructions on https://github.com/jp9000/obs-studio/wiki/Install-Instructions which include this longer set of steps (screenshot for lazy: http://i.imgur.com/3L5lPE8.png). Assuming a properly configured system I would imagine the last issue regarding conflict resolution would be less of an issue since conflicts should arise less often, but yast or zypper have an interactive way to solve that. Obviously it's not automatic, but computers cannot think quite yet. -- Jimmy On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Roman Bysh wrote:

On 07/14/2015 07:42 AM, yac wrote:

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On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:08:45 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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On 2015-07-14 11:25, Thomas Langkamp wrote:

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- automatically update/grade the OS daily: by executing zypper up or dup in the background (via cron-job or graphical utility?) AFAIK apper still cannot propose solutions for conflicts and thus might not be feasible for this job. Never automatically. Why not for the average joe user? Windows been doing this a long time. Windows is not Linux. Linux is not Windows. Linux is always looking at security.

One thing I've learned over time when I was a noob was that you make it a habit of understanding how your system works.

You run through a checklist in your mind so that you know what is being installed and what is being updated.

Security should always be on your mind.

Running an auto-update bypasses security.

Cheers!

Roman

ICQ: 551368250

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Hi, On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:14:48PM -0500, Jimmy Berry wrote:

It would seem part of the suggestion could be solved by allowing the priority to be set in a .repo file and make that the suggested path for adding packman (in wiki and elsewhere). [ 8< ] Perhaps it is already supported?

The repository definition already knows priority as parameter since quite some years.

If so then simply suggesting on packman list to provide such a file with configured priority. The docs could also be updated to include the highly recommended zypper dup --from packman once step.

And that's the wrong (some might even count it as a dangerous) suggestion! Don't use dup in this case as you would replace any package of your system with the version available at the packman side. While the majority only needs a quite small subset to get full multimedia support for example flying. Plus YaST has a module to enable popular additional software repositories. Please check if the wiki points to them too. If not feel free to enhance the documentation.

Also would be nifty if that priority could be altered on any OBS repository so project maintainers can set a priority that makes sense as described in the other thread. (perhaps already available?)

And then the race starts who has the lowest? I doubt if that approach will lead to a good result.

Another slick addition would be to add a --priority option to `zypper ar` so it could be documented with priority instead of requiring an `mr` step to change it after adding. I would actually be interested in seeing if I could tackle adding such a feature. Note my packman setup instructions on https://github.com/jp9000/obs-studio/wiki/Install-Instructions which include this longer set of steps (screenshot for lazy: http://i.imgur.com/3L5lPE8.png).

Due to the huge amount of mailing lists we have for openSUSE I fear the YaST/ libzypp/ zypper developers will will miss this thread. Therefore please file a bug report or a feature request. As you're already at github you might even file an issue there. The YaST/ libzypp/ zypper is there too. Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On 07/15/2015 06:41 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2015-07-15 12:11, Lars Müller wrote:

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If so then simply suggesting on packman list to provide such a file with configured priority. The docs could also be updated to include the highly recommended zypper dup --from packman once step.

And that's the wrong (some might even count it as a dangerous) suggestion! Don't use dup in this case as you would replace any package of your system with the version available at the packman side. While the majority only needs a quite small subset to get full multimedia support for example flying.

Well, many of the guides and the advice we give are to do just that (dup --from packman), or in yast, click on the "switch system packages to this repository" link.

I do it myself. But it is true, it is problematic, because, for instance, it replaces Lazarus with an older version. So I have to undo a few changes.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

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Shouldn't most noobs use Yast gui and ncurses?

From there they will learn about priority. Setting packages to do not modify. Changing vendors. Etc..etc..etc..

Once they understand Yast they can tackle using zypper. It's a process. Cheers! Roman ICQ: 551368250 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org