30 Oct
2006
30 Oct
'06
4:41 p.m.
The periodic ext3 fs checks at boot are driving me nuts. I know they can be
disabled.
Couldn't they be performed at shutdown instead of boot?
Whenever someone starts the computer it means 100% they need it right then.
Having ext3 perform fs checking on a 300 GB full drive is nothing that any
user will tolerate easily.
OTOH whenever someone shuts down the computer, there's a 95% chance that it
doesn't need it right then anymore (it's not a reboot).
However, there is a small problem with my suggestion. There is a chance that
the fs check at shutdown finds an error that needs user intervention. In
that case I think there must be a way to mark the volume dirty and go forward
with the shutdown. Then at boot do again a fs check and let the user decide.
These would be the steps, from boot:
0. boot
1. is fs dirty? then fsck and prompt user how to fix errors
2. run OS
3. at shutdown: should the fs be checked (verify mount count or period) if yes
then fsck with "automatic fix" option. Did the fsck find errors that cannot
be fixed automatically? If yes mark fs dirty. Shutdown.
This way, the user would never have to wait at boot, and the filesystem would
still be checked periodically.
What do you think?
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7 Nov
7 Nov
1:43 a.m.
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The Monday 2006-11-06 at 08:49 +0100, jdd wrote:
Yes, but the difference for reiserfs is that the fast test during boot does
not notice any problem, and there is.
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
If you check the "/etc/init.d/boot.rootfsck" script, it does a fsck run
regardless of partition type (and if I'm not mistaken on every boot). It's
up to fsck to decide what to do then.
And, when the system was not properly closed, it runs fsck -f, for
"force".
If I understand the script correctly, all
partition types are checked at
boot, even reiserfs. It's just that it runs so fast you don't notice.
nope. reiser check only the journal, as etx3 do also probably each start Furthermore,
there is a type of corruption in reiserfs that goes undetected
during that check, that needs and external fsck run. It causes denied
permission on files even for root.
any file system can have such problem if a failure happen at the bad moment. but it should be easy to have a big red windows saying
"warning, at the next
reboot a complete chas to be done and can be long" so one can make a boot
dedicated to this task
I don't know how easy is it to know... each partition may have a different
day for the check run. Don't you have to access the partition internal
structures to know when the next "deep" check has to be done?
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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6 Nov
6 Nov
4:04 p.m.
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Randall R Schulz schreef:
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JDD,
On Sunday 05 November 2006 23:49, jdd wrote:
I have seen this also happen several times...
(no serious effects noticed about this..)
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
The journal is just a redundant log of operations performed on the file
system. It takes an fsck to verify the file system's integrity and
replay the journal entries needed to repair any damage found.
As an aside, for reasons I don't understand, my 10.2 box sometimes has
journal entries to replay upon restart (sometimes quite a few of them)
even when it did not crash. I don't know if that's a sign of a problem
or normal for Reiser file systems. > Why is it deemed necessary to force a run of
e3fsck at boot? It's
> a journalling fs, it's expected to cope.
good question. ...
jdd
Randall Schulz
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3:59 p.m.
JDD,
On Sunday 05 November 2006 23:49, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
The journal is just a redundant log of operations performed on the file
system. It takes an fsck to verify the file system's integrity and
replay the journal entries needed to repair any damage found.
As an aside, for reasons I don't understand, my 10.2 box sometimes has
journal entries to replay upon restart (sometimes quite a few of them)
even when it did not crash. I don't know if that's a sign of a problem
or normal for Reiser file systems.
> Why is it deemed necessary to force a run of
e3fsck at boot? It's
> a journalling fs, it's expected to cope.
good question. ...
jdd
Randall Schulz
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8:49 a.m.
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
> Why is it deemed necessary to force a run of
e3fsck at boot? It's a
> journalling fs, it's expected to cope.
good question.
If I understand the script correctly, all partition types are checked at
boot, even reiserfs. It's just that it runs so fast you don't notice.
nope. reiser check only the journal, as etx3 do also
probably each start
Furthermore, there is a type of corruption in reiserfs that goes
undetected during that check, that needs and external fsck run. It causes
denied permission on files even for root.
any file system can have such problem if a failure happen at
the bad moment.
but it should be easy to have a big red windows saying
"warning, at the next reboot a complete chas to be done and
can be long" so one can make a boot dedicated to this task
jdd
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5 Nov
5 Nov
11:19 p.m.
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The Friday 2006-11-03 at 22:59 +1300, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
With reiserfs, at boot only the journal gets replayed
(automatically
when mounting). A complete reiserfsck takes a lot longer too. Nobody
deemed it necessary to run a reiserfsck at boot.
Why is it deemed necessary to force a run of e3fsck at boot? It's a
journalling fs, it's expected to cope.
If I understand the script correctly, all partition types are checked at
boot, even reiserfs. It's just that it runs so fast you don't notice.
Furthermore, there is a type of corruption in reiserfs that goes
undetected during that check, that needs and external fsck run. It causes
denied permission on files even for root.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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4 Nov
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4:58 p.m.
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The Monday 2006-10-30 at 17:41 +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
Couldn't they be performed at shutdown instead of
boot?
Whenever someone starts the computer it means 100% they need it right then.
When I halt my computer I'm waiting in a hurry to be off; when I'm booting
I'm not going anywhere.
Plus, when I start working, I want it to be in full order. It is fine the
way it is, though faster would be nice :-)
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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4:58 p.m.
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The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 05:57 +0100, Alex wrote:
Well, for me the question remains why most other
filesystems seemingly don't
need this regular checks and are nevertheless considered safe enough??
It's obviously not my decision and I will simply stay with ReiserFS, but I
Wrong, reiserfs is also checked on boot; it just runs faster.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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5:57 a.m.
There is no
_need_ to do so. It is just an extra level of safety to do
regular checks to detect inconsistencies as early as possible. This is
like doing backups: You don't _have_ to do them but it is generally
considered a wise choice to do so.
... and not to forget: you can always abort an unwanted "regular"
ext3
filesystem check during boot with CTRL-C. that something might be wrong, then let the fs
check itself - but not
just because the computer has been sut off cleanly off a couple of
times.
The problem is that often you have to check the filesystem to _find_ that
there is a reason that something might be wrong. Obviously the other
solution is to wait until a inconsistency has managed to garble all your
data. 
3 Nov
3 Nov
10:12 p.m.
Hi,
On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Robert Schiele wrote:
... and not to forget: you can always abort an unwanted "regular" ext3
filesystem check during boot with CTRL-C.
Cheers -e
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On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 09:07:13PM +0100, Alex wrote:
I'm not a
file system specialist and I don't want to become one, but why on
earth has a file system in the 21st century to perform time consuming
checks - with absolutely no other reasons for this behaviour apart from the
fact that the system has been booted x times? If there is reason to assume
There is no _need_ to do so. It is just an extra level of safety to do
regular checks to detect inconsistencies as early as possible. This is like
doing backups: You don't _have_ to do them but it is generally considered a
wise choice to do so.
that something might be wrong, then let the fs
check itself - but not just
because the computer has been sut off cleanly off a couple of times.
The problem is that often you have to check the filesystem to _find_ that
there is a reason that something might be wrong. Obviously the other solution
is to wait until a inconsistency has managed to garble all your data.
As I said, I am no specialist, and I am no
ReiserFS evangelic, but for me one
of the biggest advantages of ReiserFS was that I was rid of the absolutely
maddening periodic fs checks. While I understand the rationale for changing
the default fs from a maintainer's point of view, I consider it major flaw
from the end-users pov.
This is not a problem of the filesystem. There are the same advantages and
disadvantages to check a ReiserFS filesystem as there are for ext3 filesystems
or any other comparable one. It's just that distributions tend to handle them
differently but actually there is no reason not to change that if the weights
of advantages and disadvantages are rethought. 
10:05 p.m.
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 09:07:13PM +0100, Alex wrote:
I'm not a file system specialist and I don't
want to become one, but why on
earth has a file system in the 21st century to perform time consuming
checks - with absolutely no other reasons for this behaviour apart from the
fact that the system has been booted x times? If there is reason to assume
There is no _need_ to do so. It is just an extra level of safety to do
regular checks to detect inconsistencies as early as possible. This is like
doing backups: You don't _have_ to do them but it is generally considered a
wise choice to do so.
that something might be wrong, then let the fs check
itself - but not just
because the computer has been sut off cleanly off a couple of times.
The problem is that often you have to check the filesystem to _find_ that
there is a reason that something might be wrong. Obviously the other solution
is to wait until a inconsistency has managed to garble all your data.
As I said, I am no specialist, and I am no ReiserFS
evangelic, but for me one
of the biggest advantages of ReiserFS was that I was rid of the absolutely
maddening periodic fs checks. While I understand the rationale for changing
the default fs from a maintainer's point of view, I consider it major flaw
from the end-users pov.
This is not a problem of the filesystem. There are the same advantages and
disadvantages to check a ReiserFS filesystem as there are for ext3 filesystems
or any other comparable one. It's just that distributions tend to handle them
differently but actually there is no reason not to change that if the weights
of advantages and disadvantages are rethought.
Robert
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9:07 p.m.
This is
frighteningly true, here are 2 suggestions,
we probably need them both.
1) While an fsck is occurring in non-verbose startup mode
we need a message to that effect with a progress bar.
2) On shutdown; if a routine fsck WOULD happen next reboot,
the OS asks if the user minds converting the shutdown to a reboot.
The fsck can happen on a fresh boot but not when the computer is needed.
Once booted the system puts up a window a la Mac,
waits 2 minutes and shuts back down automatically.
With the fsck done, the next reboot happens normally.
Could you add those to the
feature wishlist in our wiki so that it
does not get forgotten? 
10:59 a.m.
New subject: SPAM: Re: [opensuse-factory] About ext3 as default and periodic fs checks
That was the main reason I went to reiserfs from ext2,
fsck.ext2 of a
20G drive was painful back then, 10x20G, I'd need to power up just
before going to bed.
Precisely. Ext2 was and is pretty much useless on large filesystems
because one needs to take a day off work every 20 boots.
With reiserfs, at boot only the journal gets replayed (automatically
when mounting). A complete reiserfsck takes a lot longer too. Nobody
deemed it necessary to run a reiserfsck at boot.
Why is it deemed necessary to force a run of e3fsck at boot? It's a
journalling fs, it's expected to cope.
Volker
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2 Nov
2 Nov
3:54 a.m.
Alex wrote:
That was the main reason I went to reiserfs from ext2, fsck.ext2 of a
20G drive was painful back then, 10x20G, I'd need to power up just
before going to bed.
Regards
Sid.
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PS: I'm
sad about loosing reiserfs
...especially if that means, if I interpret this thread correctly,
the "just-in-case" fschecks are back :-(((((((((((.
Is this really the case? IMHO this is a giant step back into the past. Not
even Windows does that.
Alex
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1 Nov
1 Nov
3:50 p.m.
I'm glad to see Michael James think the same way as me. About two days ago
I've migrated from Suse 10.1 to Windows because Suse 10.1 takes to boot 4
minutes (not joking!) and Windows Xp about 1 minut (not joking!).
I think one of the worst things about Suse is the TIME!
The same happens when you run YAST. It is too slow.
It is improductive. I hoppe next releases have "boot express".
I tried to put it in a wish list but I couldn't; I don't understand how to
send it to a wish list. Sorry about it.
Hernan Lorenzo F.
galicia360(a)gmail.com
1:50 p.m.
Michael James <Michael.James(a)csiro.au> writes:
On Tuesday 31 October 2006 9:36 pm, Silviu Marin-Caea
wrote:
Could you add those to the feature wishlist in our wiki so that it
does not get forgotten?
On Monday 30 October 2006 17:53, Rasmus Plewe
wrote:
> If a fsck at boot time occurs
> - kill the splash screen (usually the computer boots in 3 minutes, now
> it's still unchanged after 10 minutes. Something must be broken.
> Poweroff/on. Does still not boot. Damn Linux, doesn't work. Changing
> OS because Linux doesn't work for me).
This is frighteningly true, here are 2 suggestions,
we probably need them both.
1) While an fsck is occurring in non-verbose startup mode
we need a message to that effect with a progress bar.
2) On shutdown; if a routine fsck WOULD happen next reboot,
the OS asks if the user minds converting the shutdown to a reboot.
The fsck can happen on a fresh boot but not when the computer is needed.
Once booted the system puts up a window a la Mac,
waits 2 minutes and shuts back down automatically.
With the fsck done, the next reboot happens normally.
How long does it have to take to boot Linux?
Solaris used to usually boot quickly, unless you touched /reconfigure,
then it would go through all the hardware detection.
Is anyone working on an "express boot"
that gets the system up quickly based on stored hardware configs?
With all the hotplug functionality we now have
hardware detection at boot is a bit unnecessary.
michaelj
PS: I'm sad about loosing reiserfs
You're not loosing it - just the default is changed. Feel free to
change it for your installs,
Andreas
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5:28 a.m.
PS: I'm sad about loosing reiserfs
...especially if that means, if I interpret this thread correctly,
the "just-in-case" fschecks are back :-(((((((((((.
Is this really the case? IMHO this is a giant step back into the past. Not
even Windows does that.
Alex
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12:37 a.m.
On Tuesday 31 October 2006 9:36 pm, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 30 October 2006 17:53, Rasmus Plewe wrote:
> If a fsck at boot time occurs
> - kill the splash screen (usually the computer boots in 3 minutes, now
> it's still unchanged after 10 minutes. Something must be broken.
> Poweroff/on. Does still not boot. Damn Linux, doesn't work. Changing
> OS because Linux doesn't work for me).
This is frighteningly true, here are 2 suggestions,
we probably need them both.
1) While an fsck is occurring in non-verbose startup mode
we need a message to that effect with a progress bar.
2) On shutdown; if a routine fsck WOULD happen next reboot,
the OS asks if the user minds converting the shutdown to a reboot.
The fsck can happen on a fresh boot but not when the computer is needed.
Once booted the system puts up a window a la Mac,
waits 2 minutes and shuts back down automatically.
With the fsck done, the next reboot happens normally.
How long does it have to take to boot Linux?
Solaris used to usually boot quickly, unless you touched /reconfigure,
then it would go through all the hardware detection.
Is anyone working on an "express boot"
that gets the system up quickly based on stored hardware configs?
With all the hotplug functionality we now have
hardware detection at boot is a bit unnecessary.
michaelj
PS: I'm sad about loosing reiserfs
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CSIRO Bioinformatics Facility fax: 02 6246 5166
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you always get less than you hoped.
Unless you pay nothing, then you get more.
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31 Oct
31 Oct
12:24 p.m.
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
The periodic ext3 fs checks at boot are driving me
nuts. I know they can be
disabled.
Couldn't they be performed at shutdown instead of boot?
Whenever someone starts the computer it means 100% they need it right then.
Having ext3 perform fs checking on a 300 GB full drive is nothing that any
user will tolerate easily.
You could theoretically automate those checks in the background.
But you would need the fs in LVM and free space in your VG.
1. Make a snapshot of your fs
2. check the snapshot fs (you may have to replay the logs first
(mount-umount))
3. check return code for possible errors
4. delete snapshot
5. if no error returned, reset the 'last-checked' flags of the original
fs (with tune2fs).
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11:36 a.m.
On Monday 30 October 2006 17:53, Rasmus Plewe wrote:
If a fsck at boot time occurs
- kill the splash screen (usually the computer boots in 3 minutes, now
it's still unchanged after 10 minutes. Something must be broken.
Poweroff/on. Does still not boot. Damn Linux, doesn't work. Changing
OS because Linux doesn't work for me).
This is exactly what will happen for almost any random average user. They
will not press [Esc] for more information. They will press reset.
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30 Oct
30 Oct
5:04 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 07:59:07AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Monday 30 October 2006 07:41, Silviu Marin-Caea
wrote:
tune2fs -l <device>
Look for "Maximum mount count" and "Check interval".
Rasmus
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The periodic ext3 fs checks at boot are driving
me nuts. I know they
can be disabled.
What is the check period? How is it measured? In reboot cycles? Calender
time elapsed since previous check? Some combination of these? Something
else?
4:59 p.m.
Silviu,
On Monday 30 October 2006 07:41, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
The periodic ext3 fs checks at boot are driving me
nuts. I know they
can be disabled.
What is the check period? How is it measured? In reboot cycles? Calender
time elapsed since previous check? Some combination of these? Something
else?
Couldn't they be performed at shutdown instead of
boot?
Whenever someone starts the computer it means 100% they need it right
then.
Having ext3 perform fs checking on a 300 GB full drive is nothing
that any user will tolerate easily.
OTOH whenever someone shuts down the computer, there's a 95% chance
that it doesn't need it right then anymore (it's not a reboot).
The problem I see with that is that when a system starts up, it's in as
stable and pristine a state as it will ever be. On the other hand, when
shutting down, it's distinctly more likely that there will be something
amiss, even in the kernel, and a file system check in such a state
could do more harm than good.
...
Randall Schulz
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4:53 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 05:41:29PM +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
The periodic ext3 fs checks at boot are driving me
nuts. I know they can be
disabled.
Couldn't they be performed at shutdown instead of boot?
[...]
These would be the steps, from boot:
0. boot
1. is fs dirty? then fsck and prompt user how to fix errors
[...]
This way, the user would never have to wait at boot,
and the
filesystem would still be checked periodically.
No.
What do you think?
I would prefer the following:
If a fsck at boot time occurs
- kill the splash screen (usually the computer boots in 3 minutes, now
it's still unchanged after 10 minutes. Something must be broken.
Poweroff/on. Does still not boot. Damn Linux, doesn't work. Changing
OS because Linux doesn't work for me).
- present an option "you can interrupt the current fsck by pressing
ESC. This means the fsck is repeated upon next boot."
- As user, I know what will happen next time I boot and prepare for it.
If you trust hardware and file systems, you might want to present an
easy option to the user to disable those checks alltogether. I wouldn't
recommend that.
Rasmus
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4:48 p.m.
Am Montag, 30. Oktober 2006 16:41 schrieb Silviu Marin-Caea:
Whenever someone starts the computer it means 100%
they need it right then.
As we learned from past experiences: if someone stops the computer it means
they want it in 90% cases off :)
Greetings, Stephan
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5196
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23 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
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Alex -
Andreas Jaeger -
Carlos E. R. -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
Heiko Helmle -
Hernán Lorenzo Fernández -
jdd -
Michael James -
Randall R Schulz -
Rasmus Plewe -
Robby (M9.) Verberne -
Robert Schiele -
Sid Boyce -
Silviu Marin-Caea -
Stephan Kulow -
Volker Kuhlmann