[opensuse-factory] kernel pae on 64bit?
I did a first installation with 11.0 DVD (i386) on my 64bit machine. After installation i recogniced that the pae-kernel was installed automatically. Is this ok or a bug? Daniel -- Betriebssystem: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 System: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) KDE: 3.5.9 "release 64.2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Daniel Fuhrmann wrote:
I did a first installation with 11.0 DVD (i386) on my 64bit machine. After installation i recogniced that the pae-kernel was installed automatically. Is this ok or a bug?
same here on 11.0
kernel-pae-2.6.25.5-1.1 Linux loonix 2.6.25.5-1.1-pae #1 SMP 2008-06-07 01:55:22 +0200 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux
check here for explanation: <http://forums.opensuse.org/pre-release-beta/385346-kernel-pae-whats-new.html> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 08:07:36AM +0200, ab wrote:
Daniel Fuhrmann wrote:
I did a first installation with 11.0 DVD (i386) on my 64bit machine. After installation i recogniced that the pae-kernel was installed automatically. Is this ok or a bug?
same here on 11.0
kernel-pae-2.6.25.5-1.1 Linux loonix 2.6.25.5-1.1-pae #1 SMP 2008-06-07 01:55:22 +0200 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux
This is correct. As soon as "PAE" ability is present, the PAE kernel will be installed. It for instance gives hardware no execute NX protection of heap/stack to your programs. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Marcus Meissner [2008-06-20 09:12]:
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 08:07:36AM +0200, ab wrote:
Daniel Fuhrmann wrote:
I did a first installation with 11.0 DVD (i386) on my 64bit machine. After installation i recogniced that the pae-kernel was installed automatically. Is this ok or a bug?
same here on 11.0
kernel-pae-2.6.25.5-1.1 Linux loonix 2.6.25.5-1.1-pae #1 SMP 2008-06-07 01:55:22 +0200 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux
This is correct. As soon as "PAE" ability is present, the PAE kernel will be installed.
And x86-64 CPUs always have PAE. Bernhard -- Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Development --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri 20 Jun 2008 19:35:16 NZST +1200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
This is correct. As soon as "PAE" ability is present, the PAE kernel will be installed.
And x86-64 CPUs always have PAE.
With which CPU generation did this feature first appear? 11.0 just decided to install itself 2.6.25.5-1.1-pae #1 SMP on a P-III... Which suggests that pae is available on every CPU today which might by and large be considered to be in within the range of "reasonable". Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Volker Kuhlmann <list0570@paradise.net.nz> [2008-06-29 22:47]:
On Fri 20 Jun 2008 19:35:16 NZST +1200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
This is correct. As soon as "PAE" ability is present, the PAE kernel will be installed.
And x86-64 CPUs always have PAE.
With which CPU generation did this feature first appear?
Don't know exactly. According to Wikipedia [1], it's Intel Pentium Pro, and AMD Athlon.
11.0 just decided to install itself 2.6.25.5-1.1-pae #1 SMP on a P-III...
On i386, it checks /proc/cpuinfo for the "pae" flag.
Which suggests that pae is available on every CPU today
No. Bernhard [1] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension -- Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Development --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun 29 Jun 2008 22:54:15 NZST +1200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
Don't know exactly. According to Wikipedia [1], it's Intel Pentium Pro, and AMD Athlon.
Which suggests that pae is available on every CPU today
No.
openSUSE doesn't even run an anything less than i686 (CPUs smaller than that don't have nearly enough RAM with them) so it should always be available on Intel CPUs. Perhaps AMD was a lot later with pae, but even this vendor_id : AuthenticAMD cpu family : 6 model : 3 model name : AMD Duron(tm) Processor stepping : 0 cpu MHz : 597.803 cache size : 64 KB has pae. That must date about 2000. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Volker Kuhlmann <list0570@paradise.net.nz> [2008-06-29 23:25]:
On Sun 29 Jun 2008 22:54:15 NZST +1200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
Don't know exactly. According to Wikipedia [1], it's Intel Pentium Pro, and AMD Athlon.
Which suggests that pae is available on every CPU today
No.
openSUSE doesn't even run an anything less than i686
Not every CPU that is i686 has PAE. And there *are* CPUs that are not from AMD and not from Intel which are sold today and which are capable of running openSUSE but have no PAE! bwalle@newton ~ $ cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : CentaurHauls cpu family : 6 model : 9 model name : VIA Nehemiah stepping : 8 cpu MHz : 666.574 cache size : 64 KB fdiv_bug : no hlt_bug : no f00f_bug : no coma_bug : no fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 1 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr cx8 sep mtrr pge cmov pat mmx fxsr sse up rng rng_en ace ace_en bogomips : 1335.19 clflush size : 32 This system has 512 MiB memory. And it can run openSUSE although I personally prefer something more lightweight on that box. Bernhard -- Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Development --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun 29 Jun 2008 23:41:47 NZST +1200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
openSUSE doesn't even run an anything less than i686
Not every CPU that is i686 has PAE. And there *are* CPUs that are not from AMD and not from Intel which are sold today
Ah yes I was having desktops in mind. So the rule of thumb probably is to expect a PAE kernel for desktops and up, and not for small form factor lightweights. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
When Pae works almost on every "normal and newer" machine why pae isn't default and we distribute an nonpae kernel? -- Betriebssystem: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 System: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) KDE: 3.5.9 "release 64.2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Daniel Fuhrmann [2008-06-30 09:11]:
When Pae works almost on every "normal and newer" machine why pae isn't default and we distribute an nonpae kernel?
We can discuss days how we name kernels but wouldn't that give the user *any* benefit beside of making the update harder? Bernhard -- Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Development --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 30. Juni 2008 09:31:44 schrieb Bernhard Walle:
* Daniel Fuhrmann [2008-06-30 09:11]:
When Pae works almost on every "normal and newer" machine why pae isn't default and we distribute an nonpae kernel?
We can discuss days how we name kernels but wouldn't that give the user *any* benefit beside of making the update harder?
Sorry, i didn't thougt for updating, because I normally install new and go on to use my /home. But my opinion is also, anytime you must have a cut and use something new. Like KDE3.5 -->KDE4 and within a change from 10.x -->11.x theres a better chance like in 11.x -->11.x+1. Daniel
Bernhard
-- Betriebssystem: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 System: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) KDE: 3.5.9 "release 64.2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-06-30 at 09:31 +0200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
* Daniel Fuhrmann [2008-06-30 09:11]:
When Pae works almost on every "normal and newer" machine why pae isn't default and we distribute an nonpae kernel?
We can discuss days how we name kernels but wouldn't that give the user *any* benefit beside of making the update harder?
Many users are confused about this pae thing. They don't know what is it for, what benefits or disadvantages may it have, why they have to use a pae kernel if they only have 1 GiB, whether a 64 bit cpu uses it or not (being an intel only thing?), whether it is slower... this is oss, but clear, authoritative info is not so easy to find. There is no mention in the release notes about "pae". Some users are tempted to force a different kernel. Is there an easy to find link on pae on opensuse 11 and what is each kernel for, official info if possible, wiki if not? "Proof" of sloweness for pae kernels: *** http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/Memory_over_3GB_on_NetWare How PAE works (...) In fact, with PAE disabled, the processor uses so called paging tables to translate logical 32 bit addresses used by programs into 32 bit physical addresses used to access the memory. In PAE mode, the structure of these paging tables has been changed to map the 32 bit logical addresses to 36 bit physical addresses. These paging tables use bigger entries, and there is one more level of paging tables which causes a slight overhead (a few percent performance penalty) compared to the 32 bit tables for non PAE mode. *** - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIaM6JtTMYHG2NR9URAhqJAJ4nZ7n6B5x2ctJBx04IdEwH0C6jjgCeN7bZ B16ArfJhhNREzv91w0O+HA0= =3dSB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. [2008-06-30 14:15]:
Many users are confused about this pae thing.
And making the "default" PAE-capable confuses the other "many user" group of people. You cannot make every user happy. Bernhard -- Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Development --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 02:15:56PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2008-06-30 at 09:31 +0200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
* Daniel Fuhrmann [2008-06-30 09:11]:
When Pae works almost on every "normal and newer" machine why pae isn't default and we distribute an nonpae kernel?
We can discuss days how we name kernels but wouldn't that give the user *any* benefit beside of making the update harder?
Many users are confused about this pae thing. They don't know what is it for, what benefits or disadvantages may it have, why they have to use a pae kernel if they only have 1 GiB, whether a 64 bit cpu uses it or not (being an intel only thing?), whether it is slower... this is oss, but clear, authoritative info is not so easy to find.
There is no mention in the release notes about "pae".
Some users are tempted to force a different kernel.
The fun thing is that the pae kernel is a 32bit issue. 64bit (x86_64) users just get kernel-default. ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-06-30 at 14:21 +0200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
* Carlos E. R. [2008-06-30 14:15]:
Many users are confused about this pae thing.
And making the "default" PAE-capable confuses the other "many user" group of people. You cannot make every user happy.
Happiness is one thing, but confusion is another. Confusion can be cleared with some documentation and guidance. I do my bit helping others, but I myself am a bit confused, I'm not an expert on this, and I haven't seen documentation about this. Note that I'm not saying I'd like the name scheme to be changed. What I want is to have some documentation on that name scheme and what it really means, so that we can point users to it, and explain things to those people that need those explanations. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIaNXhtTMYHG2NR9URAkY3AJ930X1Vyao/yrwrXRHyslos8TY/qwCfQWJM QpL9ei71cVegt1FsTlAFkh4= =0gbU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. [2008-06-30 14:47]:
What I want is to have some documentation on that name scheme and what it really means, so that we can point users to it, and explain things to those people that need those explanations.
So, why don't you add that information to the openSUSE Wiki? Bernhard -- Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Development --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Many users are confused about this pae thing. They don't know what is it for, what benefits or disadvantages may it have, why they have to use a pae kernel if they only have 1 GiB, whether a 64 bit cpu uses it or not (being an intel only thing?), whether it is slower... this is oss, but clear, authoritative info is not so easy to find.
its been on the list many times before now, and also recently. just somebody put up some wiki explanation/faq article for this pae stuff at last for crying out loud so that this "what-is-pae" madness finally stops. <http://forums.opensuse.org/pre-release-beta/385346-kernel-pae-whats-new.html> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Monday 2008-06-30 at 14:21 +0200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
* Carlos E. R. [2008-06-30 14:15]:
Many users are confused about this pae thing.
And making the "default" PAE-capable confuses the other "many user" group of people. You cannot make every user happy.
Happiness is one thing, but confusion is another. Confusion can be cleared with some documentation and guidance. I do my bit helping others, but I myself am a bit confused, I'm not an expert on this, and I haven't seen documentation about this.
Note that I'm not saying I'd like the name scheme to be changed.
What I want is to have some documentation on that name scheme and what it really means, so that we can point users to it, and explain things to those people that need those explanations.
You can also file a bug against Release Notes ad write what should be added. Regards Ladislav. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-06-30 at 14:52 +0200, Bernhard Walle wrote:
* Carlos E. R. [2008-06-30 14:47]:
What I want is to have some documentation on that name scheme and what it really means, so that we can point users to it, and explain things to those people that need those explanations.
So, why don't you add that information to the openSUSE Wiki?
How could I, as I don't know it? I only know what you said here, so I point others to this thread. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIaO6ntTMYHG2NR9URAmxXAJ9lJBfZiN14iG1ieX+N76ermV7FVgCgizOP t4Z97GyuvlyCuZOj9n34Gfk= =M4OT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
ab -
Bernhard Walle -
Carlos E. R. -
Daniel Fuhrmann -
Ladislav Michnovič -
Marcus Meissner -
Volker Kuhlmann