Hello, I've been listening to the discussions lately. It is apparent that there is no one perfect way, because different people have different needs as well as knowledge/backgrounds. If you know, what you want, the default choice doesn't matter, if that doesn't affect the support. If you don't know what you want, the default choice is important. I have a suggestion, but don't know whether it's doable: We know that Plasma/Gnome/... have different issues with different hardware setups. Assuming, that new users might not install proprietary drivers immediately (don't know/can't do), set a default, Plasma or Gnome, which is known to probably work best on the hardware. Maybe set default to Xfce for old machines. I hope this helps the discussion. Best Robert --- Computational Physicist Lecturer Materials for Energy Research Group and Centre of Excellence in Strong Materials School of Physics University of the Witwatersrand Private Bag 3, Johannesburg 2050, South Africa ________________________________________ From: Henne Vogelsang [hvogel@opensuse.org] Sent: 18 April 2017 16:26 To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Adjusting desktop defaults to reflect project realities Hey, On 18.04.2017 16:11, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

Which only achieves one thing: Make installing openSUSE for users new to Linux, and it's concept of different Desktops, harder :-) This has been discussed over[1] and over[2] and over[3] and over[4] again, just give it a rest please... Henne [1] https://features.opensuse.org/306967 [2] https://features.opensuse.org/307495 [3] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html [4] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org <table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="width:100%;"> <tr> <td align="left" style="text-align:justify;"><font face="arial,sans-serif" size="1" color="#999999"><span style="font-size:11px;">This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. </span></font></td> </tr>

On 18 April 2017 at 16:28, Todd Rme wrote:

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Hello all,

Given the latest thread about the desktop on our bellowed factory mailing list I would like to propose the following:

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

We already had an enormous discussion about this when the decision was made to select KDE as the default some years back. Please look at the mailing list discussions on the topic. If, after reading those discussion you have something to add, please explain what that is. But repeating the exact same arguments that were made when the decision was originally adopted isn't going to benefit anyone.

I think the argument that 'we made a decision in the past' is not a valid counter to Tomas' suggestion. Things change, KDE has changed, GNOME has changed, the linux desktop ecosystem has changed, the Project in particular has changed dramatically. When that decision was made we offered one distribution, with a key audience clearly being 'new linux users'. We are now a project that offers two distributions, clearly stateing our target audience is "SysAdmins, Developers, and Power Users". I will reserve my opinion on this topic for now, because I want to join the conversation after others have had an opportunity to share their opinion. But I will counter any suggestion that this is not a valid discussion. It is, and it should be encouraged and engaged with, not dismissed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 18 April 2017 at 16:45, Todd Rme wrote:

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 18 April 2017 at 16:28, Todd Rme wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Hello all,

Given the latest thread about the desktop on our bellowed factory mailing list I would like to propose the following:

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

We already had an enormous discussion about this when the decision was made to select KDE as the default some years back. Please look at the mailing list discussions on the topic. If, after reading those discussion you have something to add, please explain what that is. But repeating the exact same arguments that were made when the decision was originally adopted isn't going to benefit anyone.

I think the argument that 'we made a decision in the past' is not a valid counter to Tomas' suggestion.

Things change, KDE has changed, GNOME has changed, the linux desktop ecosystem has changed, the Project in particular has changed dramatically.

When that decision was made we offered one distribution, with a key audience clearly being 'new linux users'. We are now a project that offers two distributions, clearly stateing our target audience is "SysAdmins, Developers, and Power Users".

I will reserve my opinion on this topic for now, because I want to join the conversation after others have had an opportunity to share their opinion.

But I will counter any suggestion that this is not a valid discussion. It is, and it should be encouraged and engaged with, not dismissed.

I didn't say it was a counter, I said that this discussion shouldn't just repeat the exact same arguments that were already made. If Thomas has something new to add to the discussion, that is fine. But repeating the exact same discussion over and over doesn't help anybody.

Okay, I do not intend to speak for Tomas, and to be frank I do not like the personal tone you're taking with this. I can think of some obvious 'new' things that have changed in the Linux desktop ecosystem in the last 8 years since the last discussion on this topic - KDE 5 Plasma was released - MeeGo was released and died - GNOME 3 was released - LXQt was released and added to openSUSE - MATE was released and added to openSUSE - Enlightenment was added to openSUSE - openSUSE went from offering 3 desktop environments to 7 - GNOME became the de-facto default in all major distributions besides openSUSE (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS) - GNOME became the default in all commercial linux distributions (RHEL, SLE, Ubuntu) - KDE stopped being the default in all of the top 25 Distrowatch distros except openSUSE and PCLinuxOS - openSUSE's KDE maintainers became a totally volunteer group - openSUSE went from a singular distribution targeting new users to two distributions aiming for a more technically savvy sysadmin/dev/power user audience Any one of the above facts would be new justification for Tomas to bring this topic up again. Instead I've been able to list 12 justifications without spending much time to think about it. Can we move on from the pointless, disrespectful debate as to whether or not Tomas is allowed to raise a topic, and actually discuss the topic? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 18 April 2017 at 17:04, Richard Brown wrote:

On 18 April 2017 at 16:45, Todd Rme wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 18 April 2017 at 16:28, Todd Rme wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Hello all,

Given the latest thread about the desktop on our bellowed factory mailing list I would like to propose the following:

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

We already had an enormous discussion about this when the decision was made to select KDE as the default some years back. Please look at the mailing list discussions on the topic. If, after reading those discussion you have something to add, please explain what that is. But repeating the exact same arguments that were made when the decision was originally adopted isn't going to benefit anyone.

I think the argument that 'we made a decision in the past' is not a valid counter to Tomas' suggestion.

Things change, KDE has changed, GNOME has changed, the linux desktop ecosystem has changed, the Project in particular has changed dramatically.

When that decision was made we offered one distribution, with a key audience clearly being 'new linux users'. We are now a project that offers two distributions, clearly stateing our target audience is "SysAdmins, Developers, and Power Users".

I will reserve my opinion on this topic for now, because I want to join the conversation after others have had an opportunity to share their opinion.

But I will counter any suggestion that this is not a valid discussion. It is, and it should be encouraged and engaged with, not dismissed.

I didn't say it was a counter, I said that this discussion shouldn't just repeat the exact same arguments that were already made. If Thomas has something new to add to the discussion, that is fine. But repeating the exact same discussion over and over doesn't help anybody.

Okay, I do not intend to speak for Tomas, and to be frank I do not like the personal tone you're taking with this.

I can think of some obvious 'new' things that have changed in the Linux desktop ecosystem in the last 8 years since the last discussion on this topic

- KDE 5 Plasma was released - MeeGo was released and died - GNOME 3 was released - LXQt was released and added to openSUSE - MATE was released and added to openSUSE - Enlightenment was added to openSUSE - openSUSE went from offering 3 desktop environments to 7 - GNOME became the de-facto default in all major distributions besides openSUSE (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS) - GNOME became the default in all commercial linux distributions (RHEL, SLE, Ubuntu) - KDE stopped being the default in all of the top 25 Distrowatch distros except openSUSE and PCLinuxOS - openSUSE's KDE maintainers became a totally volunteer group - openSUSE went from a singular distribution targeting new users to two distributions aiming for a more technically savvy sysadmin/dev/power user audience

Any one of the above facts would be new justification for Tomas to bring this topic up again.

Instead I've been able to list 12 justifications without spending much time to think about it.

Can we move on from the pointless, disrespectful debate as to whether or not Tomas is allowed to raise a topic, and actually discuss the topic?

And to follow up my objective unemotional view as to why we should be allowed to discuss this with my opinion on the topic: I agree with Tomas' proposal Given the above facts, I think the situation within the openSUSE project and the wider Linux distribution ecosystem demands we consider Tomas' idea I think actively deciding to not have a default is the correct choice for the openSUSE project given the nature of the project, the contributions for 7 desktop environments and god-knows how many Window Managers. I realise that no default still does not sit well with what the 'majority' of our 'competition' are doing. It also does not sit well with my personal desktop of choice for myself. But I think we can justify that as a united "we're openSUSE and we do stuff differently". I think that position is easier to take as a united, cohesive project who should ALL be able to support the idea of 'no default', vs the current situation where our volunteer KDE team have to shoulder an unfair burden of peoples expectations because of a tickbox in an installer that does not reflect the actual diverse nature of our project. If we're going to be different from the rest of the world, I feel it is best for everyone that we choose a path the whole project can get behind, not just a small team of half a dozen volunteers. As Chairman of the project I additionally remain fearful that we are probably only one nasty flamewar away from enough of our KDE team being demotivated or quitting to threaten openSUSE's ability to offer KDE as a default. They're volunteers. The current situation is a lot of burden on their shoulders. Over the last years we've had enough "close calls" where tensions have raised, KDE contributors have openly discussed stepping back from contributing. In those cases I have felt compelled to intervene to help support our KDE team to avoid such a circumstance, but I do not feel confident that I can always be there or always do enough to help if it happens again. I have long wished for a solution that would reduce the likelihood of such an incident affecting openSUSE. Shifting from a 'KDE default' Project to a 'No default' Project would do that. Speaking unemotionally and openly, I also see how shifting to a 'no default' project would potentially reduce the impact on openSUSE from any future KDE problems, in our team or upstream, which I also think is a strategic benefit, if not exactly a nice thought to have. Shifting to 'no default' clearly and publicly should allow us to gain attention aligned to the ways the Project is actually already operating, and should discourage people from having unfair expectations from any one desktop of openSUSE. This is a very important factor in ensuring openSUSE and all of its desktop environments are noticed, considered, praised, and reviewed on their own merits, not because of some arbitrary decision that made sense 8 years ago but no longer reflects the reality of what openSUSE offers in 2017. So to summarise, my opinion is not that we should consider Tomas' idea, but that we must implement it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-18 18:14, Daniele wrote:

I'm not completely against "no default", but you have to give to the users a very good description (and maybe a picture) about each DE.

Well, that would be about the implementation side of things.

Then you have to think twice about the order DE are listed. The first one, will become a sort of "default".

Then randomize... I mean, randomize on each install. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Am 18.04.2017 um 18:01 schrieb Richard Brown:

And to follow up my objective unemotional view as to why we should be allowed to discuss this with my opinion on the topic:

I agree with Tomas' proposal

I think that part was already clear in the initial thread - could you please shut up now for a while and let others time to think before yet another Richard mail hits their inbox? Thanks, Stephan -- Ma muaß weiterkämpfen, kämpfen bis zum Umfalln, a wenn die ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-19 12:32, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

That's a good point. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-19 20:38, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 19.04.2017 um 12:32 schrieb Vojtěch Zeisek:

...

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

While this might seem like a good idea at first, imagine a user (not necessarily a newbie) doing three installations on three slightly different machines, doing exactly the same every time and getting three totally different results.

Not good.

I would expect different installations on different hardware. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-19 22:39, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 19.04.2017 um 22:00 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2017-04-19 20:38, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Not good.

I would expect different installations on different hardware.

To exaggerate:

You install 3 servers HP Lenovo Dell

You do exactly the same on all three machines. In the end, you expect them to have hugely different software selections?

The HP running apache, Lenovo running nginx and Dell running gatling as a web server?

I would be very surprised.

Not that, not apache :-) But I would expect, for instance, different partition choices depending on the size of disk available. Even different filesystems. There could be different packages builds based on the CPU, but we don't do that. There are machines where a demanding desktop such as KDE or Gnome do not run well. Low memory, old processor, old video card, bad video drivers... XFCE runs better in those cases, I have seen that more than once. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Dne středa 19. dubna 2017 22:39:14 CEST, Stefan Seyfried napsal(a):

Am 19.04.2017 um 22:00 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2017-04-19 20:38, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Not good.

I would expect different installations on different hardware.

To exaggerate:

You install 3 servers HP Lenovo Dell

You do exactly the same on all three machines. In the end, you expect them to have hugely different software selections?

The HP running apache, Lenovo running nginx and Dell running gatling as a web server?

I would be very surprised.

This is not the case. You install on ~7 years old netbook with Intel Atom and 2 GB RAM. KDE/GNOME won't run smooth there. This is place for e.g. XFCE to take the job. Rest can be the same (Firefox, LO, ...). This idea has nothing to do with servers. Of course, user should be noted about this. -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/ https://trapa.cz/

Dne čtvrtek 20. dubna 2017 10:13:39 CEST, Stefan Seyfried napsal(a):

On 20.04.2017 08:59, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

...

This is not the case. You install on ~7 years old netbook with Intel Atom and 2 GB RAM. KDE/GNOME won't run smooth there. This is place for e.g. XFCE to take the job. Rest can be the same (Firefox, LO, ...). This idea has nothing to do with servers.

But the effect is the same: you do three times the same installation and get three totally different results. Probably even with autoyast and the same xml config you get three totally different installations. Highly confusing.

Well, the options should be just two. :-) Autojast, XML config should not be touched. Users of this tools should know what they are doing.

...

Of course, user should be noted about this.

I do not object against a warning next to the desktop selection "you seem to be installing on old crap, using the default $FATDESKTOP is probably a bad idea. Go for minimal icewm setup instead".

Something like this could be enough. -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/ https://trapa.cz/

On 04/20/2017 07:22 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Thursday 2017-04-20 10:13, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On 20.04.2017 08:59, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

...

This is not the case. You install on ~7 years old netbook with Intel Atom and 2 GB RAM. KDE/GNOME won't run smooth there. This is place for e.g. XFCE to take the job. Rest can be the same (Firefox, LO, ...). This idea has nothing to do with servers.

But the effect is the same: you do three times the same installation and get three totally different results. Probably even with autoyast and the same xml config you get three totally different installations. Highly confusing.

Well of course that should not happen - not with autoyast at least.

I think the entire topic is overblown already. We are targeting power users (says Richard, concur by me), so we do not need an installation routine that is unnecessary complex and overweight in code just trying to figure out what's best for a particular system more than it has to.

I disagree with this idea, its ok to target and focus on power users, but we shouldn't do it to the extent where we don't even consider new users. Yast and a good installer mean that openSUSE Leap is still a really good choice for New users, in my opinion we should market this more even if its not our main focus. I will also agree that pressing the same buttons in the same order on 2 different machines should provide the same results though. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Someone already suggested to have checkboxes rather than radio buttons. I support this, as openSUSE newbie it is not clear how to install multiple DEs (I found it not obvious that it is that easy). So I suggest checkboxes and a note, that the DE can be chosen during login. I don’t like random defaults at all. More choices than the fat ones is a good idea but maybe a separation from the two fat ones. I also very much like the idea with screenshots, e.g. taken from Wikipedia. Is there a way to check if GNOME ode KDE is more often installed from the downloads of the update server? Then I suggest to have this one as default. So the mass chooses and not the loudest individuals.-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il 20/04/2017 03:59, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

Dne středa 19. dubna 2017 22:39:14 CEST, Stefan Seyfried napsal(a):

...

Am 19.04.2017 um 22:00 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2017-04-19 20:38, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Not good.

I would expect different installations on different hardware.

To exaggerate:

You install 3 servers HP Lenovo Dell

You do exactly the same on all three machines. In the end, you expect them to have hugely different software selections?

The HP running apache, Lenovo running nginx and Dell running gatling as a web server?

I would be very surprised.

This is not the case. You install on ~7 years old netbook with Intel Atom and 2 GB RAM. KDE/GNOME won't run smooth there. This is place for e.g. XFCE to take the job. Rest can be the same (Firefox, LO, ...). This idea has nothing to do with servers. Of course, user should be noted about this.

IMHO there are also additional considerations beside the DE to take into account when installing openSUSE or even other distro on an old and limited HW device: 1) High CPU consuming applications as for example the gnome-tracker 2) Not good performing kernel scheduler [cfq] instead of the more performing [bfq] for example May be not so easy to track it down before installing the O.S. Regards, Marco Calistri <amdturion> Being superstitious brings bad luck. N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�

Il 20/04/2017 10:47, Frederic Crozat ha scritto:

Le jeudi 20 avril 2017 à 13:41 +0000, Marco Calistri a écrit :

...

...

IMHO there are also additional considerations beside the DE to take into account when installing openSUSE or even other distro on an old and limited HW device:

1) High CPU consuming applications as for example the gnome-tracker

First, it is called tracker (it is a fdo project, not a GNOME one) and it has not been a CPU consumer for years now (it runs only on idle time).

Sorry if I mixed tracker with Gnome family, in any case it has been a serious problem in the past as being one of the most avid resources consumer, so much that many users decided to uninstall from their machines. Regards, -- Marco Calistri <amdturion> Being superstitious brings bad luck. N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�

Il 20/04/2017 10:55, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

Dne čtvrtek 20. dubna 2017 15:41:03 CEST, Marco Calistri napsal(a):

...

Il 20/04/2017 03:59, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

...

Dne středa 19. dubna 2017 22:39:14 CEST, Stefan Seyfried napsal(a):

...

Am 19.04.2017 um 22:00 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2017-04-19 20:38, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Not good.

I would expect different installations on different hardware.

To exaggerate:

You install 3 servers HP Lenovo Dell

You do exactly the same on all three machines. In the end, you expect them to have hugely different software selections?

The HP running apache, Lenovo running nginx and Dell running gatling as a web server?

I would be very surprised.

This is not the case. You install on ~7 years old netbook with Intel Atom and 2 GB RAM. KDE/GNOME won't run smooth there. This is place for e.g. XFCE to take the job. Rest can be the same (Firefox, LO, ...). This idea has nothing to do with servers. Of course, user should be noted about this.

IMHO there are also additional considerations beside the DE to take into account when installing openSUSE or even other distro on an old and limited HW device:

1) High CPU consuming applications as for example the gnome-tracker

Well, yes and no. Firefox will be very same in each DE. I don't think it is reasonable to select different browser, office suite, etc. Gnome-tracker and similar tools are DE-specific. So that problem is solved mostly by selecting appropriate DE.

...

2) Not good performing kernel scheduler [cfq] instead of the more performing [bfq] for example

I thought it is automatically selected according to type of hard disk. At least it is my observation. If so, it'd be nice precedence case. :-)

...

May be not so easy to track it down before installing the O.S.

I wouldn't go to such a deep details. I don't think the issue is really big.

Thanks for your feedback, I appreciated. Regards, Marco Calistri <amdturion> Being superstitious brings bad luck.

On 2017-04-20 08:10, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 19.04.2017 um 22:00 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2017-04-19 20:38, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 19.04.2017 um 12:32 schrieb Vojtěch Zeisek:

...

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

While this might seem like a good idea at first, imagine a user (not necessarily a newbie) doing three installations on three slightly different machines, doing exactly the same every time and getting three totally different results.

Not good.

I would expect different installations on different hardware.

But sometimes you have to differ between what Carlos expects and what users expect.

:-) I meant rather that it would not surprise me at all it happening. That I expect the operating system installer (any system) to make automated choices based on my hardware, choose the best for my machine. I didn't mean to say that it is really happening. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 04/20/2017 05:47 AM, Marco Calistri wrote:

Il 19/04/2017 15:38, Stefan Seyfried ha scritto:

...

Am 19.04.2017 um 12:32 schrieb Vojtěch Zeisek:

...

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

While this might seem like a good idea at first, imagine a user (not necessarily a newbie) doing three installations on three slightly different machines, doing exactly the same every time and getting three totally different results.

Not good.

Talking about DE, I would like to know (as being a strong fan of such desktop) why openSUSE installer doesn't propose also Cinnamon as alternative to KDE/GNOME.

In my humble opinion, Cinnamon today is stable, fully customable and very user friendly and for these reasons more suitable for a newbie than GNOME 3

The first step is to get the Cinnamon maintainers to create a pattern for Cinnamon so that it shows up in the other section, we would also want to add openQA tests for it to ensure that its being well tested and doesn't get broken as well, but this is again why we probably need a better definition of the criteria needed so maintainers know whats needed. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 04/20/2017 07:16 PM, Ruediger Meier wrote:

On Wednesday 19 April 2017, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 19.04.2017 um 12:32 schrieb Vojtěch Zeisek:

...

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

While this might seem like a good idea at first, imagine a user (not necessarily a newbie) doing three installations on three slightly different machines, doing exactly the same every time and getting three totally different results.

Not good.

I see it the same way. We should simply add some performance dependent hints to the DE descriptions.

Moreover regarding "randomized installations". I don't like that selecting different DEs may also affect the rest of the system. Why do we get a random display manager, dependent on the installation order of the window managers? Here I would wish we had more sane global defaults. DE maintainers should not be allowed to push their personal favorite DM.

Well at the moment selecting a desktop equates to selecting its pattern and we let the distro maintainers choose what goes into there patterns.

Regarding the topic of this thread. I don't care much which desktop selection is the default. But I would keep a pre-selected one. Since I'm a conservative guy who doesn't like changes at all I would simply keep KDE as default. But only if sddm is either fixed or replaced by something which works for more use cases.

You always have the choice to install a different DM if you don't like the one that was suggested by the project, this is as simple as installing the DM you want then editing /etc/sysconfig/displaymanager, maybe if enough people agree with you the maintainer would hopefully change his mind. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 2017-04-20 11:46, Ruediger Meier wrote:

Moreover regarding "randomized installations". I don't like that selecting different DEs may also affect the rest of the system. Why do we get a random display manager, dependent on the installation order of the window managers? Here I would wish we had more sane global defaults. DE maintainers should not be allowed to push their personal favorite DM.

Yes. I proposed creating or choosing a single display manager customized for openSUSE and fully tested to work with all desktops. Preferably neither requiring the KDE nor the Gnome stacks, so having a small memory footprint. With the current situation, say you choose KDE as default, then install all the other desktops as patterns, you get one display manager. If you choose another default, the DM changes. And some do not work well with other desktops, some have missing features. This goes also with the idea of being able to select multiple desktops right on the main window, not with radio buttons, but tick boxes. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-19 21:12, Daniele wrote:

Il 19/04/2017 12:32, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto: ..

...

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

Please, define too weak. Modern browser are more resource hog then Plasma/Gnome.

Not on the video hardware. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-19 22:24, Daniele wrote:

Il 19/04/2017 22:01, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

...

On 2017-04-19 21:12, Daniele wrote:

...

Il 19/04/2017 12:32, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto: ..

...

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

Please, define too weak. Modern browser are more resource hog then Plasma/Gnome.

Not on the video hardware.

All the rest ;) Not enough ?

Both KDE and Gnome seem to demand a lot from the video card to display, so that sometimes it simply works slowly. It is also possible that the CPU has to do the work of the GPU simply because the driver is not capable; the CPU is overloaded and the result is slow for the entire system. Other times it is the CPU load that is too much, while the machine has capable video hardware with proprietary driver and all. Or has little memory. On all those cases, telling the user to try a desktop such as XFCE solves the issue and the user says the machine behaves briskly again. I doubt there is a way to list the machine specs and know beforehand if the machine is capable or not. I think that you need to run some benchmarks to know. I think Windows does that precisely and displays a score for the current machine. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-19 23:36, Daniele wrote:

Il 19/04/2017 22:44, Carlos E. R. ha scritto: ..

...

I doubt there is a way to list the machine specs and know beforehand if the machine is capable or not. I think that you need to run some benchmarks to know. I think Windows does that precisely and displays a score for the current machine.

This is the point.. and I' m not sure if Xfce+Firefox is better then Gnome+Dillo.

In my experience, Firefox in XFCE is very usable even on low spec machines (tried a pentium class machine with 500 MiB or less). I believe it is more acceptable slowness in Firefox than in the desktop. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On Thursday 20 April 2017, Stefan Bruens wrote:

On Mittwoch, 19. April 2017 22:44:58 CEST Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-04-19 22:24, Daniele wrote:

...

Il 19/04/2017 22:01, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

...

On 2017-04-19 21:12, Daniele wrote:

...

Il 19/04/2017 12:32, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto: ..

...

I liked very much the idea that installer should somehow "check" the hardware and if it is too weak to run KDE/GNOME, the installer should as default promote e.g. XFCE and/or notify user KDE/GNOME would require more CPU, memory, whatever. I have no idea how difficult would it be. I think everyone can imagine frustration from running terribly slooooooow system. Especially when some more lightweight DE would run fast on very same HW.

Please, define too weak. Modern browser are more resource hog then Plasma/Gnome.

Not on the video hardware.

All the rest ;) Not enough ?

Both KDE and Gnome seem to demand a lot from the video card to display, so that sometimes it simply works slowly. It is also possible that the CPU has to do the work of the GPU simply because the driver is not capable; the CPU is overloaded and the result is slow for the entire system.

KF5/Plasma runs fine on the Core2 Solo 1.2GHz Laptop with Intel integrated graphics I gave to my mother. Bought that in 2009 for 500€. That was low end in 2009, and is less anything you can buy today.

...

Other times it is the CPU load that is too much, while the machine has capable video hardware with proprietary driver and all. Or has little memory.

On all those cases, telling the user to try a desktop such as XFCE solves the issue and the user says the machine behaves briskly again.

Most of the time I have seen high CPU load it was firefox or some other application. There have been bugs which caused high CPU load by components belonging to Plasma, but not during the last year.

Using XFCE may make things even worse,

I have no particular problems with XFCE right now but for sure it does not feel "lightweight". But this is very common for many self-proclaimed "lightweight" projects ...

if you e.g. use Digikam in XFCE you need Qt5 and some KF5 libraries in memory, in addition to XFCEs libraries. On my computer, firefox and its plugin container are by far the "fattest" processes, and I have dolphin, kontact, konqueror, konsole running as part of a full Plasma desktop session.

Kind regards,

Stefan

-- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen home: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019 work: +49 2405 49936-424 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown composed on 2017-04-18 17:04 (UTC+0200):

- KDE stopped being the default in all of the top 25 Distrowatch distros except openSUSE and PCLinuxOS

18 Neon - Plasma is the only desktop 17 Mageia - Plasma, Gnome and Custom are the choices given by its installer in "Desktop Selection", with Plasma preselected -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 18.04.2017 16:39, Richard Brown wrote:

But I will counter any suggestion that this is not a valid discussion. It is, and it should be encouraged and engaged with, not dismissed.

None of the arguments in Tomas mail has anything to do with changes in the distribution or it's environment. It's an argument (no default because we want to avoid to express a preference) that was made a hundred times back and forth. Are you having new arguments? Fine, bring them on. Otherwise we all know, and just over the weekend have seen, where this ends :-) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:19:19 +0200, Vit Pelcak wrote:

On 18.4.2017 16:51, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hey,

On 18.04.2017 16:39, Richard Brown wrote:

...

But I will counter any suggestion that this is not a valid discussion. It is, and it should be encouraged and engaged with, not dismissed.

None of the arguments in Tomas mail has anything to do with changes in the distribution or it's environment. It's an argument (no default because we want to avoid to express a preference) that was made a hundred times back and forth.

Are you having new arguments? Fine, bring them on. Otherwise we all know, and just over the weekend have seen, where this ends :-)

- KF5 having issues with setup with multiple monitors (made quite a few people switch from KDE to GNOME where this works flawless)

Isn't this (also) an issue regarding the video-card? As I use KDE/Plasma since openSUSE 6 with ATI with multiple monitors and have extremely little problems. I did however have *a lot* of problems when using nVidia, and as we had ATI cards at hand, swapping them "fixed" all the problems.

- please do not start flame/bikeshedding that it is fault of Qt/KDE on KF5 it doesn't work well, on GNOME it does, that's what matters.

I never tested it with Gnome, as Gnome never appealed to me at all. It is personal, never seemed to be intuitive enough. Not judging its functionality.

- it used to work very well on KDE4, too

And, as said, still does at the time of writing this mail with Plasma5 on ATI (Model: "ATI Turks GL [FirePro V3900]")

- KDE Neon

-- H.Merijn Brand http://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.25 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and openSUSE http://mirrors.develooper.com/hpux/ http://www.test-smoke.org/ http://qa.perl.org http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/

On Thursday 20 April 2017, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Tuesday 2017-04-18 17:49, H.Merijn Brand wrote:

...

As I use KDE/Plasma since openSUSE 6

I think you ended up travelling to the wrong timeline. In this universe, openSUSE started around 10 ;-)

Top be more precise, "SUSE Linux" was renamed to "openSUSE" beginning with "Basilisk Lizard". ;) Hehe, this is the result of changing unimportant things like Names, defaults, etc. for no good reasons or introducing non-sense names at all. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 18 April 2017, Richard Brown wrote:

our target audience is "SysAdmins, Developers, and Power Users".

Regarding this the default selected DE doesn't really matter and should not be changed at all. Power users are able to click the right buttons during installation. Others in this thread have mentioned the unique KDE selling point for openSUSE. That's somehow true. I wish we could have also agreed about such unique non-systemd selling point. A major established rpm-based Linux distro, that's what I'm personally missing and this would be IMHO the only really competitive selling point over Red Hat and Debian derivates. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

There is no compelling reason to change the default DE to Gnome. We would be yet another Gnome distro. Too many fish in that sea already. Might as well pack it in as a Distro in that case. My choice is status quo of KDE or no default DE selected. Steven -- ____________ Apply appropriate technology. Use what works without prejudice. Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Owner Flex-1500 and Flex-3000 Flex-6300, FT-857D, FT-817ND 927.0875Mhz and 441.125 Repeaters Taft Ca. openSUSE Tumbleweed KDE Plasma with Packman, Leap 42.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

...

Are you implying that non-power users would not click a button to change the default desktop? If so, then I would suggest that the default DE be made Gnome which is far more user-friendly to new users - and power-users can click the button for KDE.

And me and others assert that KDE Plasma is actually more new-user-friendly than GNOME.

It was naive of me to suggest such. Apologies.

In this discussion, like in quite a few others, I feel like this distro and community has a major identity crisis. It's swimming around somewhere without really knowing what it should or wants to be and how/why that makes it stand out from the rest and a good choice when compared to the actually big distros of nowadays (ubuntu, ubtuntu, ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, Mint, others?).

I'm getting this feeling also. Maybe it should be discussed at some point in the future.

Don't get me wrong, I think OBS is really awesome, Tumbleweed is the only really working pretty-stable rolling distro I know of, Leap is a good choice even on my servers, TW is even nice to use on Raspberry Pi for example, and I prefer the nice and collected admin tools of YaST 2 to most commandline administration options (even though I'm sad every time I update TW because there's no equivalent to "zypper dup --no-allow-vendor-change" in YaST that I can click through).

Totally agree here. YaST is one of the reasons I often recommend openSUSE, along with OBS and openQA, plus the ease of contributing. openSUSE TW is the only distro I've managed to stay on consistently for more than 3 years (and still counting). So... Regarding the desktop selection process, I've spotted a few suggestions in other mails to this topic; - No Default - Do not change the ordering of the choices (this could spark another "war") - Provide guides in the install process which users can click on. I like the above. In fact this could give openSUSE an edge as the first distro to provide a full offline installation medium with guides to desktop selection provided within the installer. The guides could be a button next to each selection [Details], which brings up a window of clickables that shows such things as; - what a clean default Desktop looks like, along with description of capabilities and/or highlights. + A list of the main default applications, each of which can be clicked, eg, as below. - what the default browser, office suite, and pdf viewer are plus concise descriptions of capabilities, - the default music player, video player, and perhaps image viewer are, along with concise details as above. So basically highlight the main points of each default install selection for each desktop. It seems that if we cover the main applications and use cases in the suggested installer addition, then we could easily let new users decide what they might be comfortable with trying. Would it be worth discussing the above in a new thread perhaps? Kind regards, Luke Jones. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

These products embody the vision laid out 2 years ago. A large number of decisions surrounding both are strongly informed by this strong identity. I would say that there is no question in my mind that almost all, if not all, of the core contributors to these projects are consciously aware of what they're doing and how it fits into that broader picture of what openSUSE is trying to do.

hehe, it's really difficult to take this serious considering the just announced change of version numbering :) (again??? really?? puh... not able to take long term decisions? not even on such a simple thing like version numbers?) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/22/2017 08:25 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-22 03:21, Robert Kaiser wrote:

...

Luke Jones schrieb:

...

Are you implying that non-power users would not click a button to change the default desktop? If so, then I would suggest that the default DE be made Gnome which is far more user-friendly to new users - and power-users can click the button for KDE.

And me and others assert that KDE Plasma is actually more new-user-friendly than GNOME.

Power users are easily able to make a choice (as they know what ot means), new users have no clue what's "better" for them (heck, we can't even agree in here what's "better" for anyone but at least we all have personal preferences, which someone who doesn't know any of the DEs can't have yet).

It doesn't matter.

If you have no reason to know which desktop is best for you, then it doesn't matter. Choose randomly, all are good.

Yes but often new users are uncomfortable with just choosing randomly, I know I wouldn't want to. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

...

...

Yes but often new users are uncomfortable with just choosing randomly, I know I wouldn't want to.

Just tell them: you don't know what to use? Choose either KDE or Gnome, both are very good. Doesn't matter what you choose. If after a while you find out you don't like your choice, change it easily (and make sure it is easy in YaST). :-)

Hi, It was said in another message of this thread already. Actually it doesn't matter whether absolute beginners are being send to KDE or GNOME or any other DE. But they should get clear information during the process about the differences and also about how easy it is to change to another DE (with proper instructions to actually do a change, in the places where new users will be easily able to find these instructions). The key is information. Karl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

...

Just tell them: you don't know what to use? Choose either KDE or Gnome, both are very good. Doesn't matter what you choose. If after a while you find out you don't like your choice, change it easily (and make sure it is easy in YaST). :-)

It was said in another message of this thread already. Actually it doesn't matter whether absolute beginners are being send to KDE or GNOME or any other DE. But they should get clear information during the process about the differences and also about how easy it is to change to another DE (with proper instructions to actually do a change, in the places where new users will be easily able to find these instructions).

The key is information.

Absolutely agreed. If the information for choosing is presented in an unbiased way, and the information is adequate, then a user should have no trouble choosing what they think may suit them. As previously stated; - Present a list of desktops, each desktop has a [details] button next to it. - The button will present a new window with an [overview], and a list of default applications for common tasks. + The overview should present a screenshot of the default clean desktop + The overview should highlight any usage paradigms of importance (eg, taskbar, touch-centric) - The list of default apps would be clickable + Each app should be presented with a screenshot example. + A concise list of features of note. - The common tasks would be such things as, web, email, pdf, office, basic text, music and video As long as it is presented cleanly, concisely, and neutrally, then it could be a great way forward. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

...

As long as it is presented cleanly, concisely, and neutrally, then it could be a great way forward.

I like that idea, but... maybe all that info is too much, too complex to do, for the installation program? :-? Maybe it would be better to point to some web page? :-?

agreed key information during installation, and then information about where to find all the rest of the info. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-23 00:43, Luke Jones wrote:

...

I like that idea, but... maybe all that info is too much, too complex to do, for the installation program? :-? Maybe it would be better to point to some web page? :-?

That would defeat the purpose of this. As mentioned in many replies and other places, the DVD is handy for many reasons, one of which is installation of a full working system without the need for a net connection. A DVD can be d/l in any amount of time, but an installation via a slow net connection is pure frustration. So idea is to have the necessary information available on the DVD.

It doesn't need to be complex, in fact the main thing here would be to keep it as clear, concise, and to the point as possible. Present the information simply and neutrally.

But describing the applications and having screenshots of them is not simple to do. I like very much that idea, but it is not easy to do. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-23 03:25, Felix Miata wrote:

Carlos E. R. composed on 2017-04-23 02:59 (UTC+0200):

...

Luke Jones wrote:

...

...

It doesn't need to be complex, in fact the main thing here would be to keep it as clear, concise, and to the point as possible. Present the information simply and neutrally.

...

But describing the applications and having screenshots of them is not simple to do. I like very much that idea, but it is not easy to do.

I'd be concerned about drudgery of maintenance more than the initial construction. Is screenshot regeneration as easily automated as patching or QA?

Huh, there is that, maintenance. Yes, I suspect that the QA process can extract photos. But I don't recall seeing photos on the installation program - does it has that capability? :-? Maybe during the slideshow. I don't remember, I almost never see it. I would love to see this feature, but I doubt it is possible to do, and as you say, maintain it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 23.04.17 00:17 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-23 00:04, Luke Jones wrote:

...

As long as it is presented cleanly, concisely, and neutrally, then it could be a great way forward.

I like that idea, but... maybe all that info is too much, too complex to do, for the installation program? :-? Maybe it would be better to point to some web page? :-?

Absolutely not. Provide clear one-liners on the main page and add a sub-page for each DE. Needs to work without internet access. Screenshots would be nice, but only on the sub-page. Johannes

On 2017-04-23 03:53, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 22/04/17 04:49 PM, Karl Sinn wrote:

...

... and also about how easy it is to change to another DE ...

Since, as I've already pointed out, that Linux has a choice of desktops is one of the touted advantages in the media, the ability to do this is one of the features that should be emphasised and explained to newcomers.

Even easier if at the first install you can simply tick a few boxes to install a few desktops (without going through "patterns"). -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-23 04:12, Anton Aylward wrote:

More to the point, if the login GUI screen in graphical mode offers the ability to choose the desktop of the particular login session it makes it easy for the new user to try them out, experiment with options.

I think that all the display managers have to allow choosing what desktop to start; that choice is remembered for that user and made the default. But I can't vouch that this is true. Of course, installing several desktops initially then brings another question: which display manager to use, because each desktop wants its own. My idea is to choose one that is the default for the project and make sure it has has all the *needed* features. And then invest in improving it if needed. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 04/23/2017 08:58 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 22/04/17 11:36 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-04-23 04:12, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

More to the point, if the login GUI screen in graphical mode offers the ability to choose the desktop of the particular login session it makes it easy for the new user to try them out, experiment with options.

I think that all the display managers have to allow choosing what desktop to start; that choice is remembered for that user and made the default. But I can't vouch that this is true.

It is the case in the ones I've used.

Yep all except xdm which we don't really use in many places. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 22/04/17 06:58 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

...

Power users are easily able to make a choice (as they know what ot means), new users have no clue what's "better" for them (heck, we can't even agree in here what's "better" for anyone but at least we all have personal preferences, which someone who doesn't know any of the DEs can't have yet). It doesn't matter.

If you have no reason to know which desktop is best for you, then it doesn't matter. Choose randomly, all are good.

Yes but often new users are uncomfortable with just choosing randomly, I know I wouldn't want to.

I would like to point out that in the various e-magazine articles that proclaim the superiority of Linux over Windows is that Linux offers a choice of desktops The issue of "decision paralysis" is a good subject to raise, but it does in turn denigrate the user's intelligence, or possibly imply that they have been terminally brainwashed by The Evil Empire. I'll grant you that there are LiveCDs that offer one-and-only-one desktop, often because of space constraints. But if we think back from the login/chooser, there is the pull-down that offers the choice of any of the installed DMs for this login session. An intelligent new-user might reasonably be expected the experiment with that just as much as he or she might reasonably be expected to experiment and learn with other Linux features and facilities. Contrariwise, if the user doesn't have that curiosity, perhaps they don't have the curiosity to try out Linux as an alternative in the first place. So, continuing to work backwards, if you are going to customise an instillation for a new and inexperienced user I would think the thing to do is encourage them to install anything that looks interesting, in this case multiple desktop managers, and experiment. It all depends, I suppose, on issues like age, mental flexibility and the degree of brainwashing by The Evil Empire[1] whether they think they should be GIVEN one-and-only-one DM, that such choice should be out of their hands, or whether the choice they make is going to be binding on them for all time. I suppose that the people offering such decisions might be equally narrow minded as to think that the 'one-and-only-one' or 'for all time' might be either expected or applicable. However I hope not. Let's not treat the new users as if they were idiots or children. They *WILL* notice that and it will alienate them. [1] YMMV as to interpretation of who to blame for any inflexibility of attitudes. This may vary from "Microsoft", though "The Republican Party", to religious groups. I have seen people approach computers as if the keyboard was going to bite them, people younger than me. I have seen people who use iP{o,a}ds that refuse to use Google hangouts because it was not written by Apple ad who consider Google and/or hence any Android device or product) to be The Evil Empire. Go figure. -- "The Singapore government isn't interested in controlling information, but wants a gradual phase-in of services to protect ourselves. It's not to control, but to protect the citizens of Singapore. In our society, you can state your views, but they have to be correct." -- Ernie Hai, coordinator of the Singapore Government Internet Project -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/22/2017 05:54 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 22 April 2017 at 13:47, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Let's not treat the new users as if they were idiots or children. They *WILL* notice that and it will alienate them.

THIS^^^^

I don't agree with everything Anton has said in this thread but I want to highlight this as precisely the sort of thinking I want to encourage in the openSUSE Project.

openSUSE's focus on Sysadmins/Devs/Power users doesn't mean discarding new users, but means being engaging to new users who ASPIRE to be Sysadmins/Devs/Power users.

As a SysAdmin/DevOps type myself, let me mention that this was a primary reason why I abandoned GNOME. The whole environment is patronizing from top to bottom, thinking itself smarter than the user and then embarrassing itself by failing to live up to the aspiration (if your software is going to consider itself smarter than the user, that had better be true!). This includes the development community. In my brief experience attempting to contribute to GNOME to address some of the shortcomings I found, I didn't find the developers very receptive to contributions, having their own idea about the direction they wanted to take the project in. And that's fine, but it's a bit off-putting to power users and potential contributors. I think KDE Plasma fits in much better with the openSUSE goals in this respect: it not only respects the user's intelligence and competence better than GNOME does, but its developers are in my experience *much* more friendly and open to contribution. Nate -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/21/2017 05:27 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote:

On Tuesday 18 April 2017, Richard Brown wrote:

...

our target audience is "SysAdmins, Developers, and Power Users".

Regarding this the default selected DE doesn't really matter and should not be changed at all. Power users are able to click the right buttons during installation.

Others in this thread have mentioned the unique KDE selling point for openSUSE. That's somehow true. I wish we could have also agreed about such unique non-systemd selling point. A major established rpm-based Linux distro, that's what I'm personally missing and this would be IMHO the only really competitive selling point over Red Hat and Debian derivates.

A openSUSE derivative without systemd would now be essentially a completely different operating system, its that tied into everything. For example when you log in a systemd session now starts your desktop your dbus session etc. There are also many packages that no longer ship sysvinit scripts so the chance for this is long long gone. There is also many things taking use of systemd specific features. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-18 18:43, Thomas Sundell wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Hello all,

Given the latest thread about the desktop on our bellowed factory mailing list I would like to propose the following:

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

If you decide to change this dialogue, if possible could you make it a "checkboxlist" so that I can select multiple desktop environments instead of only one at install time.?.

+ 1.

I asked this before. IIRC, I was told to use the pattern selection tool for that.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

And that is what I also been doing for the last years, I'm fine with that but in my opinion a checkboxlist would solve the debate... As an sysadmin and helpdesk person I need to know almost all DEs to solve my users issues. As we, they run whatever DE they feel comfortable with and that is why this distro is so great that supports almost all of them. Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-18 23:47, James Mason wrote:

On Tue, 2017-04-18 at 16:11 +0200, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

I would like to propose the following:

...

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

I strongly support your proposal, and I appreciate you donning a flameproof jacket and bringing it forward :D

If one thing is clear from the prior discussions, it's that we are a plural desktop community, and we should reflect that was well as we can.

On Tue, 2017-04-18 at 16:26 +0200, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

only achieves one thing: Make installing openSUSE for users new to Linux, and it's concept of different Desktops, harder :-)

I don't see how clicking a box makes installation harder - accepting the disk config is a much more demanding choice for new users. (One could argue, snarkily, that putting a new user in front of KDE is making things harder on a new user, but I won't :P )

I tried to raise this as part of the pull request over the redesigned desktop selection screen in YaST (and was shot down there too); I'd suggest we go a step further and feature more of our community- supported desktops (for which we have a number of high quality, well maintained options) that are currently relegated to a 2nd-tier choice.

I'd like to hear a good argument for not giving our XFCE, LXDE, MATE, Cinnamon, Pantheon, Enlightenment, Trinity, etc. communities equal treatment when it comes to desktop selection.

Let's define a process for presenting each desktop fairly, and let the communities who are up for it contribute the necessary content.

+1 to all :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:56:47 +0930, Simon Lees wrote:

...

I don't see how clicking a box makes installation harder - accepting the disk config is a much more demanding choice for new users. (One could argue, snarkily, that putting a new user in front of KDE is making things harder on a new user, but I won't :P )

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)

You ask in a forum. In my experience in the forums (and in the group on Facebook), that's how most users coming into a Linux distro find out that they should probably try multiple desktops and decide for themselves - or they'll have a friend who's pushed them to try Linux, and their friend's choice will be the place they start. The situation where someone just decides "I'll try Linux," downloads a distro and runs the installer is incredibly rare. Not having a default might just push people in that already rare edge case to ask the question and get some guidance instead of plowing ahead and making an uninformed decision that they may later regret. They may find KDE too complex (because of it's much-vaunted configurability) or GNOME too simple (because of it's oft-criticized lack of configurability). They may find that neither runs on their underpowered video card, and XFCE might have been a better choice, but they didn't know better - and so on. At the end of the day, I don't particularly care about the decision here. I do think Tomas' suggestion makes sense, and I agree with Richard's assessment - for what that's worth. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/19/2017 11:17 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-19 00:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)

Well, it doesn't matter - any choice is /right/, there is no wrong choice, that's the main point :-)

Yes but just because thats technically correct, it doesn't mean that users will understand that the first time. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Simon Lees composed on 2017-04-19 07:56 (UTC+0930):

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)

Whether first time user or not, IMO the starkness of the role screen http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Suse/YaST/yast2-sTWcRole201703.png speaks loudly "for experts only" or "only for those who already know exactly what they want". There ought to be *something* more than a help button to use that vast void to assist the observer in selecting the offered choice better suited to his taste, needs, personality, intent, etc. A brief statement as to why the selection list is short (.iso size limited or whatever) also ought to be considered, maybe as a description of "custom"; and for "configure on-line repositories". With the help button placed as it is, or maybe even regardless of where placed, I have my doubts that many who really should do actually open help. Even its content doesn't provide much help in distinguishing between Gnome and KDE. While in part this is because of the run-on paragraph formatting, both are foremost described as "a powerful and intuitive desktop environment". Us knowing that openSUSE is not Mint or Ubuntu does not help the person needing to make a selection on the role screen. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/19/2017 03:30 PM, Olaf Hering wrote:

Am Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:56:47 +0930 schrieb Simon Lees :

...

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)

How would ANY googling help with that decision? Those who decide based on other peoples opinion are served best by a decision made by us. Either poison is fine for them.

Olaf

This is exactly my point about having no default, if we have no default we are no longer making a decision for them and sure either choice will meet there needs probably equally well (atleast initially) they won't know that so we need to do a better job of providing guidance then the current selection screen does. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 2017-04-19 10:11, Axel Braun wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 19. April 2017, 09:58:52 CEST schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 04/19/2017 03:30 PM, Olaf Hering wrote:

...

Am Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:56:47 +0930

...

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)> How would ANY googling help with that decision? Those who decide based on other peoples opinion are served best by a decision made by us. Either

schrieb Simon Lees : poison is fine for them.

Olaf

This is exactly my point about having no default, if we have no default we are no longer making a decision for them and sure either choice will meet there needs probably equally well (atleast initially) they won't know that so we need to do a better job of providing guidance then the current selection screen does.

But this will not work for less experienced users. They feel uncertain and have no idea about the impact. So giving guidance or recommendation is a must if you want to make it user friendly. The less decisions a (less experienced) user must take, the better.

If you know your way around, you will do anyway that you think is right for you.

Thats why I think we should keep a default.

And how do you know that you are making the right choice for /them/? For instance, the current default (KDE) is terrible for people like me that want things simple. KDE is very complex. Beautiful, yes, but bewildering. I also find the Gnome way too difficult to understand. Some people like having thousands of things they can configure. Some people hate having thousands of things they can configure. How can you choose correctly for them? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

...

How can you choose correctly for them?

There is no right or wrong. It should keep the barrier low for newbies, and it should look somewhat familiar for new users, who have potentially 2 histories: Mac or Windoze.

I feel we are not wrong with the current default I fully agree with you here. Most newbye come from windows (Win more

Il 19/04/2017 12:30, Axel Braun ha scritto: then Mac, IMHO). So, Plasma is, at first sight at least, a very good choice for them. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

In data mercoledì 19 aprile 2017 19:21:38, Michal Suchánek ha scritto:

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:20:19 +0200

Daniele wrote:

...

Il 19/04/2017 12:30, Axel Braun ha scritto:

...

...

How can you choose correctly for them?

There is no right or wrong. It should keep the barrier low for newbies, and it should look somewhat familiar for new users, who have potentially 2 histories: Mac or Windoze.

I feel we are not wrong with the current default

I fully agree with you here. Most newbye come from windows (Win more then Mac, IMHO). So, Plasma is, at first sight at least, a very good choice for them.

Any of Cinnamon/MATE/XFCE (since they dropped the weird floating panel)/LXDE/Icewm/KDE provide the somewhat familiar desktop with a start menu and panel that lists the running applications.

Out of these Icewm is really minimalistic lacking some features you would expect of a desktop (iirc it has no notification area for one).

KDE has the problem that it provides a lot of those 'extra wheels' which are not visibly marked as such. So the user does not know not to lean on them too heavily and sees them fall off :->

Any of the others look like a fine choice to me ;-)

Thanks

Michal I also think the default of KDE is a good choice. Well said. :@)

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dne středa 19. dubna 2017 12:16:16 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

On 2017-04-19 10:11, Axel Braun wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 19. April 2017, 09:58:52 CEST schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 04/19/2017 03:30 PM, Olaf Hering wrote:

...

Am Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:56:47 +0930 schrieb Simon Lees :

...

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)>

How would ANY googling help with that decision? Those who decide based on other peoples opinion are served best by a decision made by us. Either poison is fine for them.

This is exactly my point about having no default, if we have no default we are no longer making a decision for them and sure either choice will meet there needs probably equally well (atleast initially) they won't know that so we need to do a better job of providing guidance then the current selection screen does.

But this will not work for less experienced users. They feel uncertain and have no idea about the impact. So giving guidance or recommendation is a must if you want to make it user friendly. The less decisions a (less experienced) user must take, the better.

Exactly!

...

If you know your way around, you will do anyway that you think is right for you.

Thats why I think we should keep a default.

And how do you know that you are making the right choice for /them/?

Yes, but how can *they decide*? In this point I'd argue to select the DE *probably* fitting needs of most of people.

For instance, the current default (KDE) is terrible for people like me that want things simple. KDE is very complex. Beautiful, yes, but bewildering. I also find the Gnome way too difficult to understand.

I do consider KDE simple in terms of finding way how to use it. GNOME 3 is much simpler in terms of how many things You can influence (e.g. in settings), but I find it terribly non-understandable in terms how to work with it. So what do You mean by "simple"? :-)

Some people like having thousands of things they can configure.

Like me. :-)

Some people hate having thousands of things they can configure.

Why don't they just let the options intact?

How can you choose correctly for them?

If targeting also for newcomers, I believe we need some default... -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/

Dne středa 19. dubna 2017 12:16:16 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

On 2017-04-19 10:11, Axel Braun wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 19. April 2017, 09:58:52 CEST schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 04/19/2017 03:30 PM, Olaf Hering wrote:

...

Am Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:56:47 +0930 schrieb Simon Lees :

...

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)>

How would ANY googling help with that decision? Those who decide based on other peoples opinion are served best by a decision made by us. Either poison is fine for them.

This is exactly my point about having no default, if we have no default we are no longer making a decision for them and sure either choice will meet there needs probably equally well (atleast initially) they won't know that so we need to do a better job of providing guidance then the current selection screen does.

But this will not work for less experienced users. They feel uncertain and have no idea about the impact. So giving guidance or recommendation is a must if you want to make it user friendly. The less decisions a (less experienced) user must take, the better.

Exactly!

...

If you know your way around, you will do anyway that you think is right for you.

Thats why I think we should keep a default.

And how do you know that you are making the right choice for /them/?

Yes, but how can *they decide*? In this point I'd argue to select the DE *probably* fitting needs of most of people.

For instance, the current default (KDE) is terrible for people like me that want things simple. KDE is very complex. Beautiful, yes, but bewildering. I also find the Gnome way too difficult to understand.

I do consider KDE simple in terms of finding way how to use it. GNOME 3 is much simpler in terms of how many things You can influence (e.g. in settings), but I find it terribly non-understandable in terms how to work with it. So what do You mean by "simple"? :-)

Some people like having thousands of things they can configure.

Like me. :-)

Some people hate having thousands of things they can configure.

Why don't they just let the options intact?

How can you choose correctly for them?

If targeting also for newcomers, I believe we need some default... -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/

On Wednesday 19 April 2017, Axel Braun wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 19. April 2017, 09:58:52 CEST schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 04/19/2017 03:30 PM, Olaf Hering wrote:

...

Am Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:56:47 +0930

schrieb Simon Lees :

...

If its your first time using Linux ever, without spending 15 minutes googling how do you know which of KDE or Gnome is the right choice? This is where it is hard and where the installer needs to do better (for leap users anyway)>

How would ANY googling help with that decision? Those who decide based on other peoples opinion are served best by a decision made by us. Either poison is fine for them.

Olaf

This is exactly my point about having no default, if we have no default we are no longer making a decision for them and sure either choice will meet there needs probably equally well (atleast initially) they won't know that so we need to do a better job of providing guidance then the current selection screen does.

But this will not work for less experienced users. They feel uncertain and have no idea about the impact. So giving guidance or recommendation is a must if you want to make it user friendly. The less decisions a (less experienced) user must take, the better.

I see it the same way, moreover I don't like changing defaults randomly, so keep KDE please. Just an anecdote from my childhood: I was using Sparc workstations at our university for some years. Very simple login screen, user/password, no problems. Suddenly one day the login screen was "a bit" different. I had to select a window manager before I could login. At this time I didn't even know what a window manager is nor I knew that the one I was happily using for years was called fvwm. So I had to try almost all of the offered ones just to find the one again which looked similar to what I was using before. Some of the WMs I've had to go through were so cryptic that it was even hard to find way to log out again. The whole martyrium took me almost one hour and after this my home directory was splattered with many config files and directories which I would probably never need again. I guess many of all the hundreds of students had similar annoying minutes. Why does one admin waste so much human life time? So, my rule of thumb: Never change things for other people unless there is a very good reason. The fact that there might be a better desktop than KDE is not a good reason to change 20 year old defaults IHMO.

If you know your way around, you will do anyway that you think is right for you.

Exactly. And moreover I still keep the pre-selected KDE even though I don't use KDE. Though I was disappointed that it brings us this terribly configured sddm nowadays. But this is a similar issue. The old default (kdm) was changed by KDE maintainers. According to my rule of thumb above they should have changed it to something which is at least competitive to the obsolete kdm. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 09:47:29PM +0000, James Mason wrote:

On Tue, 2017-04-18 at 16:26 +0200, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

only achieves one thing: Make installing openSUSE for users new to  Linux, and it's concept of different Desktops, harder :-)

I don't see how clicking a box makes installation harder - accepting the disk config is a much more demanding choice for new users. 

Well, I do actually remember versions where there was no preselected option (no, I'm not going through my DVD collection just to tell you the exact interval of versions). I also remember that at that time, the effort to be as neutral as possible resulted in descriptions of both Gnome and KDE choices being almost identical. The first thing that came to my mind whenever I saw that installer screen was: "I'm so lucky I'm not a newbie who hasn't seen KDE or Gnome yet. I really don't know how they are supposed to choose based on the information on this page." So I sincerely hope if the distribution gods decide to return back to the "no preselected option" mode, they at least make sure there is some distinction in the text descriptions. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On Thu, 2017-04-20 at 12:01 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Tuesday 2017-04-18 23:47, James Mason wrote:

...

...

I would like to propose the following:

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

If one thing is clear from the prior discussions, it's that we are a plural desktop community, and we should reflect that was well as we can.

Going from one default to no default __in the name of plurality__ is bit  like dumb German people referring to students not as "Studenten"  (literally students) but "Studierende" (literally a studying group of  people) in the name of gender equality. Hello

Jan, I believe that calling people who do (whatever) in name gender equality dumb is not something that belongs to technical discussion about future of Factory. I also think that this analogy is greatly misleading/inaccurate. Cheers Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEwQnJ+Ps8HqIKhK3yWyRdZ/3eaFcFAlj4mAcACgkQWyRdZ/3e aFex7g/9FNDud/iAp3OON09GXTiqfFYT9RIBhpA7AUD47So7trLNSGu7vPV7mLDI kyegAuRz7q7oA+iMk/8REUmmkr9SgO+amQtVgJFlzCEN9NB+HOU0ruGcd0aO7/0X yiifk4Z9RHCrGI3cII/Oiyzky0F2C8TGyqMQP71kos73NwYKCrdebWhuKs/t9hDR 4DpTDOIMHAVdXDWigXe6fvyacJRsSmZsjwnNIqY6slanfGk2SrWkGqZ4eNpDLQST ZtfwajRZ3ds7J2y3uT81M9xZqFKbtcK91SrBtVsnPGFRy8Nih2ljpuUL2DY5SIBb wJG70GAupnKhhpzDKldlVgK6gNOgejdrd9SHysqmIXt0qKPvglQQtJf0iU1zMqMV 606JjRVOtr2NsYN49AnqEVVsipMp9XrgXhLMxldmozYDDMGsifhuDcXV3MrklEoj XJT/OKuWC6oXs6HKxhgiQCd1z2Ur0jrAP1vXrRNTAqHXnz99F8uFs6K/nGcuR0XO RiT9Gh+n972ANandcUaG9kL+J/+MuxJ/g4YsIiGn06UueczqdtV1ghQkkOmLDR1o O0tjXd4HEnapUhXd2bn6+EO2BTPZ8VroUshGQ1mt+lmsgitVKTYyu1d95ae35gob XZKQ6SLoqaHv/9mnV4T7ROLioJOqM8ETd65f4V4jV6Lk0TLWmfk= =QBjR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-18 23:59, Simon Lees wrote:

While we are apparently focusing Leap more towards Sysadmins etc (apparently anyway), there are still new users using Leap and I think before we move to no selection we need to do a better job in the installer of presenting new users with what each option is and means, as someone else mentioned I think we at least need screenshots etc as part of the installer. Until such a time as someone implements that I think Leap needs a default, what that default should be I don't know, I use none of the obvious choices, I don't think it should be enlightenment though :-P (Although maybe for tumbleweed as enlightenment is the desktop for sysadmins and power users).

If screenshots are too difficult to present, I'm not keen on them. But certainly a good description, so that new users can choose. And after all, you can always say "if on doubt, choose XYZ", where that XYZ could be the current default. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On Wednesday 2017-04-19 01:15, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:43:02 +0200, Adam Mizerski wrote:

...

At this point I'd like to remind the "openSUSE Strategy" (https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Strategy):

" The openSUSE software distribution offers: - Rich out of the box experience based on sane defaults with powerful tools for system configuration and customization "

For me the "sane defaults" part is very important. That's why I'm not using Arch or Gentoo.

Choosing the "no default" is not a good option for openSUSE in my opinion.

Define a "sane default" for all users, all hardware combinations, and all situations when it comes to something that is best defined by a personal preference.

Since I contributed to that strategy document in some way in the past, "sane default", if indeed that came from me, alludes to _ludicrous things present in other distributions_, such as Debian's xterm behavior on Alt-Bksp, where that key combo does not do something backspacey, nor does it do nothing (both actions would be within expectation), but instead, they produce the 'ÿ' character. That is past sane there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-19 11:17, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

On Apr 18 16:11 Tomas Chvatal wrote (excerpt):

...

... I would like to propose the following:

"Desktop selection dialogue won't have preselected any default value."

I think in general all YaST installer top-level dialogs should have preselected default values so that an unexperienced user can click only [Next],[Next],... to get an openSUSE default system installed.

Have that dialog select a random choice if the user hits Next with no choice >:-)

With "in general all YaST installer top-level dialogs" I mean all dialogs where technically and legally a preselected default is possible. Things like license confirmations or error resolving dialogs (e.g. "not enough disk space") are exceptions where an explicit action by the user is needed.

-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)