[Leap] Why "Mesa", "Alsa" and "Cups" in Server Role (400 Mb)
Hello, Today (17-Aug-23), was installing a Leap 15.5 Server Role, but cleaning unneeded packages, found that in Server Role the following packages a selected to be installed: Mesa (Dependency of Cups), Alsa, and Cups. - First, "Alsa" (Advanced Linux Sound Architecture), like the name, Alsa is used to manage the sound, but in server is something not needed Out-The-Box, it won't add anything to the system, except boot time, and unneeded services. - Second, "Cups" (The Common UNIX Printing System), a service that manage the print server in Linux, first this package add unnecessary packages like "Mesa", second when someone will install an Out-The-Box Server Role Distro, it won't primary install for print server, and second, like OpenSUSe have the majorities of service to be installed when needed, "Cups" can't be an exception to be installed by default, with bringing extras package like MESA. - Third, "Mesa" (System for rendering 3-D Graphics), this package is use for graphical environment, which is none in a server role, this package in server role is brought by Cups package. With those mentions, I want to know why those packages that none are useful in server role, being in Server Role, since i start using OpenSUSe, since version 9. And if possible, remove from default Server Role. another package i think is a waste of resource in Server Role is Plymouth, when a sysadmin is working, and need to reboot a machine, the first thing is look is the logs in the boot process.
On Thursday 2023-08-17 16:16, Walddys Emmanuel Dorrejo Céspedes wrote:
Second, "Cups" (The Common UNIX Printing System), a service that manage the print server in Linux [...]
With those mentions, I want to know why those packages that none are useful in server role
Well it's right in the description: print server. Printers are added to the Linux machine and then made available, which saves you from having to add them manually to all the workstations. That's relevant whenever you have to control/limit the use of printers in larger environments. Ink does not pay for itself, especially not with certain price-gouging brands. On the other hand, pushing maximally pigmented dust to dead trees is getting old-fashioned in its own right..
It appears that my previous explanation may not have been clear, or I might not have expressed myself adequately. SysAdmins who set up the openSUSE Leap/Tumbleweed Server Role do not, by default, install a print server. Typically, someone will configure an APACHE/NGINX web server instead. Including a print server is not within the scope of the out-of-the-box experience for a Server Role. Initially, SysAdmins seek a simple and secure Server Role, as provided by openSUSE. Adding unnecessary packages during the default setup could lead to wastage of space. CUPS introduces MESA, which in turn brings in more unnecessary packages. These additional packages serve no practical purpose and might only cause inconvenience or security vulnerabilities. If the service activates due to an error, it could potentially compromise the system's security posture. By default, a Server Role comes with the necessary setup and configuration for security, but the SysAdmin is responsible for setting up additional services that the system can offer. OpenSUSE Leap/Tumbleweed is the most complete distro, offering everything that users could love and appreciate in a distribution. Removing those little packages is more of a bonus than keeping them.
On Thursday 2023-08-17 22:01, Walddys Emmanuel Dorrejo Céspedes wrote:
It appears that my previous explanation may not have been clear.
Including a print server is not within the scope of the out-of-the-box experience for a Server Role.
SysAdmins who set up the openSUSE Leap/Tumbleweed Server Role [...] Typically [...] will configure an APACHE/NGINX web server [...]
CUPS introduces MESA, which in turn brings in more unnecessary packages. These additional packages serve no practical purpose and might only cause inconvenience or security vulnerabilities
So you removed cups for potential vulnerabilities, only to include nginx, ignoring the potential vulnerabilities that brings. I find that hypocritical. You should not judge others by your own standards as to what is "typical" and what is (and is not) in scope. That said, I have already practically agreed on that cups is perhaps not as useful as it once was. But I will disagree with you on the webserver.
I apologize, but I'm having difficulty comprehending whether my communication lacks clarity regarding my reference. Allow me to reiterate that my point pertains to the unnecessary inclusion of packages such as CUPS, MESA, and ALSA by default during the process of performing a fresh installation of the "Server Role."
For sure we can open a request here to revisit Server role https://code.opensuse.org/leap/features/new_issue However, seems like we inherit all system roles from SLES Example: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Leap:15.5/system-role-serve... Any experimenting with patterns/roles where we would diverge from SLES would be against the current ideology of Leap. Better way would be to push the change to SLES first, but I am afraid that changing packageset installed with particular system role one SP before the very last planned one is bit too late. It's definitely topic for next-gen, when we'll have free hands as ALP base that we plan to build up on does not consist of any desktop. Also if you care about space usage, why not to try Leap Micro? Cheers! On Thu, 2023-08-17 at 20:01 +0000, Walddys Emmanuel Dorrejo Céspedes wrote:
It appears that my previous explanation may not have been clear, or I might not have expressed myself adequately.
SysAdmins who set up the openSUSE Leap/Tumbleweed Server Role do not, by default, install a print server. Typically, someone will configure an APACHE/NGINX web server instead.
Including a print server is not within the scope of the out-of-the- box experience for a Server Role. Initially, SysAdmins seek a simple and secure Server Role, as provided by openSUSE. Adding unnecessary packages during the default setup could lead to wastage of space.
CUPS introduces MESA, which in turn brings in more unnecessary packages. These additional packages serve no practical purpose and might only cause inconvenience or security vulnerabilities. If the service activates due to an error, it could potentially compromise the system's security posture.
By default, a Server Role comes with the necessary setup and configuration for security, but the SysAdmin is responsible for setting up additional services that the system can offer.
OpenSUSE Leap/Tumbleweed is the most complete distro, offering everything that users could love and appreciate in a distribution. Removing those little packages is more of a bonus than keeping them.
Thank you very much for the answer. Is like you said, will have to be for the next release, i am not using Micro Leap, because there is limitation: 1- I am the only lover of openSUSE in the IT department and i manage all the servers. 2- Other people like to work in production servers doing live "modifications". 3- Others don't like to learn new things and because of this, using a more complex-simple OS will put more workloards over me. create the issue: https://code.opensuse.org/leap/features/issue/132
On 8/22/23 00:22, Lubos Kocman via openSUSE Factory wrote:
For sure we can open a request here to revisit Server role https://code.opensuse.org/leap/features/new_issue
However, seems like we inherit all system roles from SLES
Example: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Leap:15.5/system-role-serve...
Any experimenting with patterns/roles where we would diverge from SLES would be against the current ideology of Leap. Better way would be to push the change to SLES first, but I am afraid that changing packageset installed with particular system role one SP before the very last planned one is bit too late.
It's definitely topic for next-gen, when we'll have free hands as ALP base that we plan to build up on does not consist of any desktop.
Also if you care about space usage, why not to try Leap Micro?
In terms of the contents of the server pattern more broadly, we currently also offer a "Minimal/Custom" role which already fills the need for people who want less then the server role. I think making the server role much smaller will probably bring it too close to the minimal role.
On Thu, 2023-08-17 at 20:01 +0000, Walddys Emmanuel Dorrejo Céspedes wrote:
It appears that my previous explanation may not have been clear, or I might not have expressed myself adequately.
SysAdmins who set up the openSUSE Leap/Tumbleweed Server Role do not, by default, install a print server. Typically, someone will configure an APACHE/NGINX web server instead.
Including a print server is not within the scope of the out-of-the- box experience for a Server Role. Initially, SysAdmins seek a simple and secure Server Role, as provided by openSUSE. Adding unnecessary packages during the default setup could lead to wastage of space.
CUPS introduces MESA, which in turn brings in more unnecessary packages. These additional packages serve no practical purpose and might only cause inconvenience or security vulnerabilities. If the service activates due to an error, it could potentially compromise the system's security posture.
By default, a Server Role comes with the necessary setup and configuration for security, but the SysAdmin is responsible for setting up additional services that the system can offer.
OpenSUSE Leap/Tumbleweed is the most complete distro, offering everything that users could love and appreciate in a distribution. Removing those little packages is more of a bonus than keeping them.
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 8/17/23 23:46, Walddys Emmanuel Dorrejo Céspedes wrote:
Hello,
Today (17-Aug-23), was installing a Leap 15.5 Server Role, but cleaning unneeded packages, found that in Server Role the following packages a selected to be installed: Mesa (Dependency of Cups), Alsa, and Cups.
Currently the Server Role just installs patterns-enhanced_base and yast (which shouldn't pull in Mesa by default.
- First, "Alsa" (Advanced Linux Sound Architecture), like the name, Alsa is used to manage the sound, but in server is something not needed Out-The-Box, it won't add anything to the system, except boot time, and unneeded services.
This does seem unnecessary, I can't see it being directly pulled in so it must be a dependency of something else, I don't have time to figure that out at the moment but if you can figure out where the dependency is coming from then we can look at resolving it.
- Second, "Cups" (The Common UNIX Printing System), a service that manage the print server in Linux, first this package add unnecessary packages like "Mesa", second when someone will install an Out-The-Box Server Role Distro, it won't primary install for print server, and second, like OpenSUSe have the majorities of service to be installed when needed, "Cups" can't be an exception to be installed by default, with bringing extras package like MESA.
It seems like udev-configure-printer requires python3-cups. From looking at why it was introduced https://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808014 which was related to livecd's so to me it seems reasonable to move this into the x11_enhanced pattern, I can make that change.
- Third, "Mesa" (System for rendering 3-D Graphics), this package is use for graphical environment, which is none in a server role, this package in server role is brought by Cups package.
Agreed, there shouldn't be any X11 dependencies at this point i'd consider such a bug.
With those mentions, I want to know why those packages that none are useful in server role, being in Server Role, since i start using OpenSUSe, since version 9.
And if possible, remove from default Server Role.
another package i think is a waste of resource in Server Role is Plymouth, when a sysadmin is working, and need to reboot a machine, the first thing is look is the logs in the boot process.
This one i'm more on the fence, it could also move into the X11 pattern but what do others think? -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
First, "Alsa" (Advanced Linux Sound Architecture), like the name, Alsa is used to manage the sound, but in server is something not needed Out-The-Box, it won't add anything to the system, except boot time, and unneeded services.
This does seem unnecessary, I can't see it being directly pulled in so
it must be a dependency of something else, I don't have time to figure that out at the moment but if you can figure out where the dependency is coming from then we can look at resolving it.
Hello, Yes, i will try to locate the dependencies and update this thread and thank you for looking into this. if you need something else, i can free time to help.
In the "Enhanced Base System" pattern, the package "alsa-plugins" is selected. This package installs other ALSA packages; however, I couldn't find any other package that requires "alsa-plugins". Only when you select the pattern itself will the "alsa-plugins" package be added.
On 8/18/23 23:26, Walddys Emmanuel Dorrejo Céspedes wrote:
In the "Enhanced Base System" pattern, the package "alsa-plugins" is selected. This package installs other ALSA packages; however, I couldn't find any other package that requires "alsa-plugins". Only when you select the pattern itself will the "alsa-plugins" package be added.
From looking at the pattern source [1] there is nothing in there mentioning alsa or alsa-plugins directly. So one of the packages somewhere in between must be pulling it in, the list for enhanced_base starts around line 321 1. https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/system:install:head/patterns-ba... -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
like Mr. @lubos Kocman said in the message i proceed to create the issue for the modification in the next gen, hope it get approve: https://code.opensuse.org/leap/features/issue/132 thank for the help.
participants (4)
-
Jan Engelhardt -
Lubos Kocman -
Simon Lees -
Walddys Emmanuel Dorrejo Céspedes