[opensuse-factory] 12.3 -- if it isn't too late....

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[opensuse-factory] Questions re...

Basil Chupin

4 Mar 2013 4 Mar '13

00:35

....could the following programs be added to the list of programs which are installed by default, please?: make gcc libpangox The first 2 are required to compile the nVidia driver, and the last is required by a number of programs which will not run without it and the only way to find out why they won't is to run the program in a terminal to get the error message. It would also be very nice if- mc and nano were also added to this list of default installs. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Jan Engelhardt

4 Mar 4 Mar

02:16

On Monday 2013-03-04 01:35, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

....could the following programs be added to the list of programs which are installed by default, please?: make, gcc, libpangox. The first 2 are required to compile the nVidia driver, and the last is required by a number of programs which will not run without it and the only way to find out why they won't is to run the program in a terminal to get the error message.

It would also be very nice if mc, nano were also added to this list of default installs.

The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and better earlier than too late. Because if this keeps up (for time->\infty), before you know it, you have a mail-capable eclipse in the default set. nvidia: People do not normally have to compile nvidia, because that should be precompiled in some zypp repo. It seems wrong to 'penalize' non-nv users with extra packages. libpangox: The description "XYZ is required by a number of programs which will not run without it" is really non-telling too (it's also seen a handful of times in .spec files). Note that programs which do require libpangox-1_0-0 through DT_NEEDED will automatically pull it in. I see no reason to make libraries, unless they are dlopened which is a minority thing anyhow, explicitly-named. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrey Borzenkov

02:43

В Mon, 4 Mar 2013 03:16:51 +0100 (CET) Jan Engelhardt пишет:

...

nvidia: People do not normally have to compile nvidia, because that should be precompiled in some zypp repo.

No. At some point packages have been switched to compile kernel driver during installation. I do not know the reasons. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

09:42

On Monday 2013-03-04 03:43, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:

...

В Mon, 4 Mar 2013 03:16:51 +0100 (CET) Jan Engelhardt пишет:

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nvidia: People do not normally have to compile nvidia, because that should be precompiled in some zypp repo.

No. At some point packages have been switched to compile kernel driver during installation. I do not know the reasons.

If it now works DKMS-like, the RPM containing the source and being responsible for the automatic compile should simply Require: the necessary build tools. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

04:32

On 04/03/13 13:16, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Monday 2013-03-04 01:35, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
....could the following programs be added to the list of programs which are installed by default, please?: make, gcc, libpangox. The first 2 are required to compile the nVidia driver, and the last is required by a number of programs which will not run without it and the only way to find out why they won't is to run the program in a terminal to get the error message.

It would also be very nice if mc, nano were also added to this list of default installs. The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and better earlier than too late. Because if this keeps up (for time->\infty), before you know it, you have a mail-capable eclipse in the default set.

nvidia: People do not normally have to compile nvidia, because that should be precompiled in some zypp repo.

No so. Yesterday I installed 12.3 RC2 and had to use "nomodeset" to get the installation done. And when it was finally installed and being aware that kernel 3.8.1-2 was available I installed that after which I had to compile the nVidia driver (it was either compiling it for the 3.7.9 kernel in 12.3 or "going all the way" with the latest stalbe kernel). So, both make and gcc are important. Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list?

...

It seems wrong to 'penalize' non-nv users with extra packages.

Oh, yeah :-( . Great penalty :-( . But it is NOT a penalty to install by default a 33MB HELP file for Gimp?

...

libpangox: The description "XYZ is required by a number of programs which will not run without it" is really non-telling too (it's also seen a handful of times in .spec files).

Note that programs which do require libpangox-1_0-0 through DT_NEEDED will automatically pull it in.

Which is why I had to go into YaST and manually install it. Right :-) .

...

I see no reason to make libraries, unless they are dlopened which is a minority thing anyhow, explicitly-named.

BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

05:06

On 2013-03-04 15:32 (GMT+1100) Basil Chupin composed:

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Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list?

...

...
It seems wrong to 'penalize' non-nv users with extra packages.

...

Oh, yeah :-( . Great penalty :-( .

Why not make the default install install everything anyone might ever need? It's the principle of penalizing everyone over needs of a user subset that finds FOSS inadequate. Those who must depend on FOSS packages to meet their non-FOSS needs should be dependent on the non-FOSS packages to ensure meeting its dependencies. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

08:18

On 04/03/13 16:06, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2013-03-04 15:32 (GMT+1100) Basil Chupin composed:

...
Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list?

...
...
It seems wrong to 'penalize' non-nv users with extra packages.

...
Oh, yeah :-( . Great penalty :-( .

Why not make the default install install everything anyone might ever need? It's the principle of penalizing everyone over needs of a user subset that finds FOSS inadequate. Those who must depend on FOSS packages to meet their non-FOSS needs should be dependent on the non-FOSS packages to ensure meeting its dependencies.

Right......... BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Malcolm

05:22

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: 12.3 -- if it isn't too late....

On Mon 04 Mar 2013 03:32:36 PM CST, Basil Chupin wrote: <snip>

...

And when it was finally installed and being aware that kernel 3.8.1-2 was available I installed that after which I had to compile the nVidia driver (it was either compiling it for the 3.7.9 kernel in 12.3 or "going all the way" with the latest stalbe kernel).

So, both make and gcc are important.

Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list?

Hi It's a little more than a few KB's? The following NEW packages are going to be installed: binutils gcc gcc47 glibc-devel linux-glibc-devel make site-config 7 new packages to install. Overall download size: 11.5 MiB. After the operation, additional 52.2 MiB will be used. Why not add the kernel-devel files as well... aren't they needed as well for building... Your already installing the next kernel as well, so it seems a moot point since your not running the released kernel, I only have 3.7.10-1.1-desktop installed on my test system? PS, I use gimp so the help file is useful, I do have an nvidia system but it's not running at present... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.28-2.20-desktop up 7 days 2:23, 3 users, load average: 0.03, 0.11, 0.13 CPU Intel® i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | GPU Intel® Ironlake Mobile -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

08:27

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: 12.3 -- if it isn't too late....

On 04/03/13 16:22, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Mon 04 Mar 2013 03:32:36 PM CST, Basil Chupin wrote: <snip>

...
And when it was finally installed and being aware that kernel 3.8.1-2 was available I installed that after which I had to compile the nVidia driver (it was either compiling it for the 3.7.9 kernel in 12.3 or "going all the way" with the latest stalbe kernel).

So, both make and gcc are important.

Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list?

Hi It's a little more than a few KB's?

The following NEW packages are going to be installed: binutils gcc gcc47 glibc-devel linux-glibc-devel make site-config

7 new packages to install. Overall download size: 11.5 MiB. After the operation, additional 52.2 MiB will be used.

So? All these are on the DVD anyway and will take less than 30 seconds to transfer and install. Gimp Help is 27MB big to 'download' and this is installed by default. And how many people use Gimp?

...

Why not add the kernel-devel files as well... aren't they needed as well for building...

These are installed by default. You used to have to download and install kernel-source but this is no longer necessary.

...

Your already installing the next kernel as well, so it seems a moot point since your not running the released kernel, I only have 3.7.10-1.1-desktop installed on my test system?

What exactly is the question you are asking here?

...

PS, I use gimp so the help file is useful,

Fine, then when you do decide that you need Gimp Help then install it. But it shouldn't be installed by default (27MB worth to 'download')

...

I do have an nvidia system but it's not running at present...

Sorry, don't understand. Why isn't it running? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

10:03

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: 12.3 -- if it isn't too late....

On Monday 2013-03-04 09:27, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...
Hi It's a little more than a few KB's?

The following NEW packages are going to be installed: binutils gcc gcc47 glibc-devel linux-glibc-devel make site-config

7 new packages to install. Overall download size: 11.5 MiB. After the operation, additional 52.2 MiB will be used.

So? All these are on the DVD anyway and will take less than 30 seconds to transfer and install.

It depends on more than just that. 5400 rpm hard disks, network connection (DVD drives are dying out, I tell you). Things like that.

...

Gimp Help is 27MB big to 'download' and this is installed by default. And how many people use Gimp?

I concur with your observation that gimp is perhaps "not so necessary", but its presence is not directly a voucher for more packages either. That reminds me of Fedora's package group selection box http://tinyurl.com/cghdrc6 that allows you to fuzzily select the things you want, without overthrowing users with a list of 1000+ packages. If you want text processing (libreoffice is also fat), check Office. If you want gimp, check Graphics. If you want *DE, check its entry in the list, and so on. But SUSE already has that in forms of patterns, IIRC. It is just that we have "superpatterns" as well, which is the well-known choice ( ) KDE, ( ) GNOME, ( ) XFCE, ( ) Minimal X, ( ) Minimal Text and so I reached the "oh fugged about it" point, because I recognize we are all too lazy to go into the Software Dialog and deselect gimp and gcc and other patterns we do not want. :) Do what you will with the superpattern lists, I'm installing Minimal anyway, because --recommends being default (over --no-recommends) already trips me up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

10:16

On 2013-03-04 11:03 (GMT+0100) Jan Engelhardt composed:

...

I'm installing Minimal anyway, because --recommends being default (over --no-recommends) already trips me up.

+++ :-) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

08:18

Am 04.03.2013 05:32, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

So, both make and gcc are important.

Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list?

Oh, I'd like to have kernel-debuginfo and crash in the default install list. I often use them, they are important, so they should be default. (and kdumptool already can send email ;-)

...

...
Note that programs which do require libpangox-1_0-0 through DT_NEEDED will automatically pull it in.

Which is why I had to go into YaST and manually install it. Right :-) .

You'd better file a bug report against the packages that need libpangox and are not requiring it properly, that would be more helpful, I gues. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

08:35

On 04/03/13 19:18, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 04.03.2013 05:32, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...
So, both make and gcc are important.

Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list? Oh, I'd like to have kernel-debuginfo and crash in the default install list. I often use them, they are important, so they should be default.

(and kdumptool already can send email ;-)

Methinks that this is taking it a bit too far. make and gcc are required to be able to compile the nvidia driver to be able to get a decent picture on the screen as well as to be able to get the Desktop Effects working. Fooling around with a kernel is not part of getting the oS to work correctly.

...

Note that programs which do require libpangox-1_0-0 through DT_NEEDED will automatically pull it in.

...
Which is why I had to go into YaST and manually install it. Right :-) . You'd better file a bug report against the packages that need libpangox and are not requiring it properly, that would be more helpful, I gues.

I'll take a note of the program which failed to execute the next time I install whatever RC which follows RC2 because I forgot which prog failed to start yesterday :-( - there were too many things to think about at that point. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

08:59

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 04/03/13 19:18, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...
Am 04.03.2013 05:32, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...
So, both make and gcc are important.

Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list? Oh, I'd like to have kernel-debuginfo and crash in the default install list. I often use them, they are important, so they should be default.

(and kdumptool already can send email ;-)

Methinks that this is taking it a bit too far. make and gcc are required to be able to compile the nvidia driver to be able to get a decent picture on the screen as well as to be able to get the Desktop Effects working.

If this was the case for a lot more bits of hardware, including gcc and make by default might make sense, but having to compile your own drivers is an exception. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.0°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jiri Slaby

09:30

On 03/04/2013 09:35 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 04/03/13 19:18, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...
Am 04.03.2013 05:32, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...
So, both make and gcc are important.

Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list? Oh, I'd like to have kernel-debuginfo and crash in the default install list. I often use them, they are important, so they should be default.

(and kdumptool already can send email ;-)

Methinks that this is taking it a bit too far. make and gcc are required to be able to compile the nvidia driver to be able to get a decent picture on the screen as well as to be able to get the Desktop Effects working. Fooling around with a kernel is not part of getting the oS to work correctly.

I don't care about nvidia, so I really don't need a compiler on a machine. Some manuals also say this is not safe on a production machine. What you need here is to fix nvidia package to require those... The same for the others which require something and don't clearly declare that in a spec file. -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

10:10

On Monday 2013-03-04 10:30, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...

...
Methinks that this is taking it a bit too far. make and gcc are required to be able to compile the nvidia driver to be able to get a decent picture on the screen as well as to be able to get the Desktop Effects working. Fooling around with a kernel is not part of getting the oS to work correctly.

I don't care about nvidia, so I really don't need a compiler on a machine. Some manuals also say this is not safe on a production machine.

Every normal user has repositories set up, so it can be installed in a blink. Only time where I did not see repos is with the commercial-type products like RHEL or SLES, where you need to run the activation first to get beyond the scope of the DVD. The workers of build.opensuse.org are damn well "production", in the notion that people will be upset if they (or in case of redundancy, sufficiently many of them) do not work. Likewise are HPC computing machines at your local university DC. In fact, without gcc, they would not even be "production"-productive. What a bullshit some maunals are. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jiri Slaby

10:20

On 03/04/2013 11:10 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Monday 2013-03-04 10:30, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...
...
Methinks that this is taking it a bit too far. make and gcc are required to be able to compile the nvidia driver to be able to get a decent picture on the screen as well as to be able to get the Desktop Effects working. Fooling around with a kernel is not part of getting the oS to work correctly.

I don't care about nvidia, so I really don't need a compiler on a machine. Some manuals also say this is not safe on a production machine.

Every normal user has repositories set up, so it can be installed in a blink.

Whatever. If a package needs something it should 'Require:' it, right?

...

The workers of build.opensuse.org are damn well "production", in the notion that people will be upset if they (or in case of redundancy, sufficiently many of them) do not work.

I don't see the point. I'm talking about production machines like web servers.

...

Likewise are HPC computing machines at your local university DC. In fact, without gcc, they would not even be "production"-productive. What a bullshit some maunals are.

They are not bullshit at all. I'm talking about a different sort of services. Not a machines accessible to stus. Those are a completely different story. -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

14:41

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-04 a las 10:30 +0100, Jiri Slaby escribió:

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What you need here is to fix nvidia package to require those... The same for the others which require something and don't clearly declare that in a spec file.

Yes, that's the real issue. If the nvidia package requires make and gcc etc, it should tell yast to install them. It is not fair to install those packages on everybody machines if they don't need them. So, probably somebody should write a bugzilla requesting that change. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE0sp0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xAnQD/TOapyrEIvSNVI4zK8gvBfjcf 7AOtc0lgk+jYSDFNa1QA/3rM0g2GiFAm868IspaH+FPmDa0CE3DxDNPfQeWb8B6t =GjU6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Stefan Seyfried

10:51

Am 04.03.2013 09:35, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

On 04/03/13 19:18, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...
Am 04.03.2013 05:32, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...
So, both make and gcc are important.

Hell, what degree of difficulty is there to add a 358Kb and a 4Kb file for make and gcc, respectively, to the default install list? Oh, I'd like to have kernel-debuginfo and crash in the default install list. I often use them, they are important, so they should be default.

(and kdumptool already can send email ;-)

Methinks that this is taking it a bit too far. make and gcc are required to be able to compile the nvidia driver

What is so special about that nvidia driver? I have about 50 Linux devices at home, about 20 of them running some kind of openSUSE, none of them running the nvidia driver. I'm using crash and kdump on more than 50% of those 20 boxes from time to time.

...

to be able to get a decent picture on the screen as well as to be able to get the Desktop Effects working. Fooling around with a kernel is not part of getting the oS to work correctly.

Well, without crash and kdump I would sometimes not easily be able to get the machines to work reliably in text mode, not even thinking about getting them into some graphics mode :-) Just select all patterns on your next installation and you should be happy. But neither your gcc/make nor my crash/kdump preference should be forced onto all users. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

11:38

On 04/03/13 21:51, Stefan Seyfried wrote: [pruned]

...

Just select all patterns on your next installation and you should be happy. But neither your gcc/make nor my crash/kdump preference should be forced onto all users.

I, and many others, have absolutely NO need for either kaffeine or MPlayer. And yet both are FORCED on people. I deliberately REMOVE kaffeine during the installation process and yet is still gets installed. So if that happens, then I can have my make and gcc. Oh, and mc and nano as well, thanks. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

12:14

Am 04.03.2013 12:38, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

On 04/03/13 21:51, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

[pruned]

...
Just select all patterns on your next installation and you should be happy. But neither your gcc/make nor my crash/kdump preference should be forced onto all users.

I, and many others, have absolutely NO need for either kaffeine or MPlayer. And yet both are FORCED on people.

MPlayer is not even available in openSUSE...

...

I deliberately REMOVE kaffeine during the installation process and yet is still gets installed.

That might warrant a bug report. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

11 Mar 11 Mar

07:06

On 04/03/13 23:14, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 04.03.2013 12:38, schrieb Basil Chupin:

...
On 04/03/13 21:51, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

[pruned]

...
Just select all patterns on your next installation and you should be happy. But neither your gcc/make nor my crash/kdump preference should be forced onto all users. I, and many others, have absolutely NO need for either kaffeine or MPlayer. And yet both are FORCED on people. MPlayer is not even available in openSUSE...

OK, that's attempt answer #1 out of #3 :-) . Want to go for attempt #2? :-) But to give you some consolation, I meant to say Amarok instead of MPlayer :-) .

...

I deliberately REMOVE kaffeine during the installation process and yet is still gets installed. That might warrant a bug report.

I am only a simple soul and if this only affects me why should I make waves for the vast majority of oS fans who see no reason to object about this? :-) BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 with KDE 4.10.1 & kernel 3.8.2-1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Kyrill Detinov

4 Mar 4 Mar

09:24

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:35:55 +1100 Basil Chupin wrote:

...

nano

were also added to this list of default installs.

We have 'joe' as default console editor. -- WBR Kyrill

Felix Miata

09:57

On 2013-03-04 13:24 (GMT+0400) Kyrill Detinov composed:

...

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:35:55 +1100 Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...
nano

...

...
were also added to this list of default installs.

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We have 'joe' as default console editor.

I've often wondered what processes distros ever went through in choosing a default editor, particularly those resulting in this particular one Joe that I'd be highly unlikely to think to try if my default editor MC was missing, broken or otherwise unavailable. IMO any system lacking an OFM has get an OFM installed as job priority one. If MC is missing and otherwise unavailable before editing was required, nano would be my first choice. Lacking both, I'd either stumble through vi, or boot something else that can either offer an OFM ready to use, or facilitate getting an OFM installed. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

10:13

On Monday 2013-03-04 10:57, Felix Miata wrote:

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nano were also added to this list of default installs.

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We have 'joe' as default console editor.

There is no default set (echo $EDITOR => empty). vim is also installed by default it seems, and given many programs using $EDITOR fall back to vim if $EDITOR is empty, vim was and is the defualt editor. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

12:00

On 04/03/13 20:24, Kyrill Detinov wrote:

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On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:35:55 +1100 Basil Chupin wrote:

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nano

were also added to this list of default installs. We have 'joe' as default console editor.

Thanks for this. Just had a look. Too many CTR-K <something> to deal with. But I will try it out anyway. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

13:23

On Monday 2013-03-04 13:00, Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 04/03/13 20:24, Kyrill Detinov wrote:

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On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:35:55 +1100 Basil Chupin wrote:

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nano

were also added to this list of default installs. We have 'joe' as default console editor.

Thanks for this. Just had a look. Too many CTR-K <something> to deal with. But I will try it out anyway.

Heh, that's like saying screen has too many CTRL-A <something>, or that vi has too many : <something>. :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

14:38

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-04 a las 23:00 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

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On 04/03/13 20:24, Kyrill Detinov wrote:

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We have 'joe' as default console editor.

Thanks for this. Just had a look. Too many CTR-K <something> to deal with. But I will try it out anyway.

Joe was added some years ago to the default install. It is even included in the rescue image, because people complained that forcing 'vi' on the population was too much (vi is also included, of course). I was one of those complaining :-) Joe has several skins or modes, so you can choose wich keypresses to use: joe jstar jmacs rjoe jpico which depend on symlinks, that I think are not available on the resuce system. And yes, I would love 'mc' be added to the default, but I always remember to search for it and add it manually. No big deal. The big deal is that the rescue image, last time I tried, did not contain 'mc'. I have not looked yet at what the new separate rescue CD at the download page contains, I need an extra USB sticl to try. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE0se8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xmkQD/b9JvaE6JI+WwvQBPXXZy7nT8 plK9cGSbgn+g7JpYYYUA/1y4SAUG64e7RK2vCD8rOiFoENvmHF0JJkzmMMdwGWPN =59d5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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participants (11)

Andrey Borzenkov
Basil Chupin
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Felix Miata
Jan Engelhardt
Jiri Slaby
Kyrill Detinov
Malcolm
Per Jessen
Stefan Seyfried

[opensuse-factory] 12.3 -- if it isn't too late....

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