Am Dienstag 25 November 2008 schrieb Andrew Joakimsen:

Hi:

I was wondering where is the "sled_beta" mailing list?

You're asking the wrong audience. Whoever gave you the download URL for SLED, should have given you the other details too. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andrew Joakimsen schreef:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 14:40, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Dienstag 25 November 2008 schrieb Andrew Joakimsen:

...

Hi:

I was wondering where is the "sled_beta" mailing list?

You're asking the wrong audience. Whoever gave you the download URL for SLED, should have given you the other details too.

That person was Chuck Irwin , the "Beta Project Manager" and I did attempt to contact him, but it says his email address is invalid:

----- The following address had a permanent error ----- ; originally to The recipient 'cirwin' is unknown at domain 'novell.com'. ----- the delivery transcript ----- Service not available, closing transmission channel

I am seriously thinking, as much as I like the distribution, to drop any SUSE support much less test your products. You have people that are willing to test and all they want in return is the ability to test your product, a place to report bugs (unless you don't want that) and a place to discuss it with other testers. This is Linux, there is no huge "trade secret" at risk... you loose nothing and gain the world over in terms of usability and debugging when you have a more open beta test. Instead of welcoming them with open arms you make them jump through hoops, insult them and are generally not cooperative. I understand you must be busy, but how hard is it to point someone to a mailing list and add them to the ACL by their Novell account? Notice I am not just sending you the questions I actually have, I just want to be told where to ask them.

When I say you, don't take it personally, I mean the collective of Novell and SUSE people I have been dealing with. FWIW Chick was the most helpful person, is that what you do, fire helpful people?

Warmest regards,

Andrew H. Joakimsen P.S.: If you prefer, feel free to call me on +1.352.3782778

Helas i am also experiencing this atitude more and more lately... I can imagine that these things are caused by the fact that far to few people have to make things happen, as the aimed effect of M$, when it took over SUSE from Novell earlier...(if you cann't beat them, buy them).. seems they are closer to their goal now...: shut-, or at least, slow down the speed of the developments of the openSUSE team... Many people felt SUSE has become part of the 'enemy' now, and turned to other distros..( a very nasty, and well-aimed side-effect) So to few people, that have to make/want too many changes at once, which is always almost impossible, but with this scenario, most certainly, have to be aware of that, get used to that new fact, and act according to it, (untill things change for the better again, if, in the worst case, that will ever happen...) What would be the most wanted right now, is creating the circumstances to gain trust, and work hard. (don't turn against people that want to help, and stay loyal, even now. Everyone reacting in the mailinglists, means to help, from their point of vieuw. Sometimes that causes extra stress.. But it is all energy, to be bent, or transformed to be usefull.. ;) Now the bugs that had to be out after alpha stage, appear in the last betas, and the rc's.. This is not what we all wanted, i guess.. If we want to turn this tide, there is only one solution: stick together, and DONOT want to make more changes than can be handled, to close to rc stage... Plan changes carefully, don't take too much hay on the fork, so to speak... Please take these words to hearth, they are meant to heal, not to hurt.. ;) (a loyal tester and bugseeker) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.27.7-8-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 Alpha 0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.1.3 (KDE 4.1.3) "release 4.6" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow schreef:

Am Montag 08 Dezember 2008 schrieb Oddball:

...

Please take these words to hearth, they are meant to heal, not to hurt.. ;)

(a loyal tester and bugseeker)

Not sure what you said has anything to do with Andrew's problems with a completely different product.

Greetings, Stephan

What i said there is not about a problem with another product, it is about (the probable cause) of the reaction towards people that want to help in some way;) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.27.7-8-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 Alpha 0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.1.3 (KDE 4.1.3) "release 4.6" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2008-12-08 at 11:45 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

You're borking up the wrong tree. Novell has different beta programs with different ways of interaction and those have special roles and special support to deliver specific results - and you were not approved (as many others) for one of these.

This is not an answer to what he says his contact person at Novell appears to have been fired, and his mail is not forwarded to another contact person. As far as it appears with the posted data, it seems he was approved by that contact person.

There's not much we can help you here.

You could forward him to another contact person. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk9GyMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VwlwCdHEIUb7Ab19FEJHIisktnD0hg p3oAn2ZAPOyiFNYViDXAX3079SwA1qQZ =+9LP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 10:02 +0100, Oddball wrote:

Helas i am also experiencing this atitude more and more lately... I can imagine that these things are caused by the fact that far to few people have to make things happen, as the aimed effect of M$, when it took over SUSE from Novell earlier...(if you cann't beat them, buy them).. seems they are closer to their goal now...: shut-, or at least, slow down the speed of the developments of the openSUSE team...

Uh... what? Are you seriously bringing up the dead horse of Microsoft again? How exactly would you purport that the openSUSE development is getting worse?

Many people felt SUSE has become part of the 'enemy' now, and turned to other distros..( a very nasty, and well-aimed side-effect)

This was an early act of some radicals that apparently didn't bother to look up and believe the openSUSE devs when they said that nothing would change in the OS being free because of the deal.

So to few people, that have to make/want too many changes at once, which is always almost impossible, but with this scenario, most certainly, have to be aware of that, get used to that new fact, and act according to it, (untill things change for the better again, if, in the worst case, that will ever happen...) What would be the most wanted right now, is creating the circumstances to gain trust, and work hard. (don't turn against people that want to help, and stay loyal, even now. Everyone reacting in the mailinglists, means to help, from their point of vieuw. Sometimes that causes extra stress.. But it is all energy, to be bent, or transformed to be usefull.. ;)

Now the bugs that had to be out after alpha stage, appear in the last betas, and the rc's.. This is not what we all wanted, i guess..

If we want to turn this tide, there is only one solution: stick together, and DONOT want to make more changes than can be handled, to close to rc stage... Plan changes carefully, don't take too much hay on the fork, so to speak...

Please take these words to hearth, they are meant to heal, not to hurt.. ;)

Now this is confusing. You implied that you were upset about the openSUSE development being hurt, but here you're talking about testers being turned away, etc., which does not involve the openSUSE development. Are you referring to the development of SLED or openSUSE? -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy - openSUSE Member Public Mail: Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays from the Yeaux! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Oddball escribió:

No not worse, just less people to do the the job than before..

Do you have any evidence to backup your statements or you are just ranting ? eh ?

It was not about the OS being free, but people that go away do not come back easy...

blabla..

Large profits have been made by Novell last year in the linux division... as effect of the M$ deal...

Do you think it was done for other reasons ? works as expected :P -- "We have art in order not to die of the truth" - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/

Cristian Rodríguez schreef:

Oddball escribió:

...

No not worse, just less people to do the the job than before..

Do you have any evidence to backup your statements or you are just ranting ? eh ?

? Did you read what i wrote?

...

It was not about the OS being free, but people that go away do not come back easy...

blabla..

hmmm.... well, lives continue... if changes have been made, the paths follow..nothing to be done about that.., simple cause and effect. (i did not make this law..) i spoke many... the dissappontment was tremendous at the time... But, whatever one says, there will always be people that do not agree, i am aware of that, and it does not disturb me.. if you do not like what i say, do not get upset by reading it, upsetting or ranting is not my intention, you are free to choose..

...

Large profits have been made by Novell last year in the linux division... as effect of the M$ deal...

Do you think it was done for other reasons ? works as expected :P

Offcourse it was done for that reason, but that doesn't change other effects, like it or not.

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.27.7-8-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 Alpha 0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.1.3 (KDE 4.1.3) "release 4.6" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: On Wednesday, 2008-12-10 at 01:56 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Carlos E. R. escribió:

...

This is not an answer to what he says his contact person at Novell appears to have been fired,

Cool, let's continue developing random theories ! how you know he was "fired" eh ? isnt people able to purse different interests ?

I don't know. I said "appears". However, if a person leaves voluntarily, hopefully he has enough time to inform all his clients who will be the new contact person, don't you think?

...

and his mail is not forwarded to another contact person.

So you want to contact the same address and get a reply from a different person ? that's not the way __personal__ email address work...

Sorry, but to us (users) your address is a business address - even if it can be used for others uses (I try not to with mine's). It was an address @novell, which this time was used strictly for business. If a person leaves the company, for whatever reason, that address remains with the company, and is the responsibility of the company to give some kind of redirection help to the users or clients still posting to the now not working business address. It is typical to put an autoresponder with contact info: it can be the general info contact address, to whom you write, and they tell you the new person for that task - so as not to hand out indiscriminately addresses. But your current behavior of ignoring the issue or downtalking people when you don't like their criticism is not... I don't have words to classify that behavior. Disgusting. The issue so far is: A person complains that he had a contact person at novell from whom he got SLES for betatesting, that contact person disappeared, and nobody at novell wants to tell him who to speak to now. Nice. That is what has been said here. If that is not true, then the OP can tell otherwise, or someone from novell can say "yes, we contacted him in private, all is solved". No need to specify here your "secrets". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk/6xsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U0jACeNkNfWcEsL1skOpZLg3Qg9h4F Td4An0JL8klW3sPjh4AkP4rwcVRrxbWz =5/Ge -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

...

So you want to contact the same address and get a reply from a different person ? that's not the way __personal__ email address work...

Sorry, but to us (users) your address is a business address - even if it can be used for others uses (I try not to with mine's). It was an address @novell, which this time was used strictly for business.

If a person leaves the company, for whatever reason, that address remains with the company, and is the responsibility of the company to give some kind of redirection help to the users or clients still posting to the now not working business address. It is typical to put an autoresponder with contact info: it can be the general info contact address, to whom you write, and they tell you the new person for that task - so as not to hand out indiscriminately addresses.

But your current behavior of ignoring the issue or downtalking people when you don't like their criticism is not... I don't have words to classify that behavior. Disgusting.

The issue so far is:

A person complains that he had a contact person at novell from whom he got SLES for betatesting, that contact person disappeared, and nobody at novell wants to tell him who to speak to now.

Nice.

That is what has been said here. If that is not true, then the OP can tell otherwise, or someone from novell can say "yes, we contacted him in private, all is solved". No need to specify here your "secrets".

Its perhaps also due to the fact that we do not want Andrew as Beta Tester anymore, since he did not adhere to our Beta Test rules. If you do not work with us according to these rules (and they are not that problematic), you will not get help. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:46:56AM -0500, Richard wrote:

On Wed December 10 2008 11:33:26 am Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

...

...

So you want to contact the same address and get a reply from a different person ? that's not the way __personal__ email address work...

Sorry, but to us (users) your address is a business address - even if it can be used for others uses (I try not to with mine's). It was an address @novell, which this time was used strictly for business.

If a person leaves the company, for whatever reason, that address remains with the company, and is the responsibility of the company to give some kind of redirection help to the users or clients still posting to the now not working business address. It is typical to put an autoresponder with contact info: it can be the general info contact address, to whom you write, and they tell you the new person for that task - so as not to hand out indiscriminately addresses.

But your current behavior of ignoring the issue or downtalking people when you don't like their criticism is not... I don't have words to classify that behavior. Disgusting.

The issue so far is:

A person complains that he had a contact person at novell from whom he got SLES for betatesting, that contact person disappeared, and nobody at novell wants to tell him who to speak to now.

Nice.

That is what has been said here. If that is not true, then the OP can tell otherwise, or someone from novell can say "yes, we contacted him in private, all is solved". No need to specify here your "secrets".

Its perhaps also due to the fact that we do not want Andrew as Beta Tester anymore, since he did not adhere to our Beta Test rules.

If you do not work with us according to these rules (and they are not that problematic), you will not get help.

Ciao, Marcus

It would be common courtesy to tell the beta tester (Andrew in this case) that you didn't want anymore help or that you didn't need his services anymore rather than ignoring his messages or removing the contact mailbox or giving snide, discourteous comments to that beta tester in a semi-public forum. As he had been given a contact point, had a copy of the beta for SLED (not generally available), so unless you are also calling him a thief, it would seem he had been accepted and if now not needed or wanted any longer, the courtesy of some kind of notification seems in order.

I haven't seen a whole lot of common courtesy here lately.

I only got parts of the pictures by asking around, I have not the full picture. And this forum is for _openSUSE_, as others have said. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The issue so far is:

A person complains that he had a contact person at novell from whom he got SLES for betatesting, that contact person disappeared, and nobody at novell wants to tell him who to speak to now.

Pretty much. Although I didn't make much of an effort to contact someone, since I understand there is no support provided for beta releases. On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:33, Marcus Meissner wrote:

Its perhaps also due to the fact that we do not want Andrew as Beta Tester anymore

Well that's the first I hear about it. Underscores, again, the communications issue. Maybe you should contact me off-list so we can settle this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2008-12-10 at 17:53 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:46:56AM -0500, Richard wrote:

...

I haven't seen a whole lot of common courtesy here lately.

I only got parts of the pictures by asking around, I have not the full picture.

And this forum is for _openSUSE_, as others have said.

True, But we being betatesters (of factory) means that we probably have a high interest and or commitment in/with Linux, openSUSE, SUSE, and Novell, and often have some say on our jobs when it comes the time to buy SLES or not. We often are the resident Linux expert, you see. If we see that a SLES betatester is looked upon, that someone has to ask on a public list who the Novell contact person is... I assure you that when a client or employer asks me about getting SLES, I will remember this. This and many other things, of course, both positive and negative. But a communication problem will weight heavily on a prospective SLES contract, I'm afraid. So, please, someone, please clarify the problem in private with the OP, and then tell us that it is solved and every body is happy. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAklAI9MACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U2JACdHo41f6UrjCaE0e/ngxQx+bb3 kOgAn0lQqNLpgTa4QCuV7bIjY4lOhOSp =WsUZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

"Carlos E. R." writes:

So, please, someone, please clarify the problem in private with the OP, and then tell us that it is solved and every body is happy.

I'm under the impresseion that it's solved already - just not to Andrew's satisfaction - but I will followup with Andrew again, Regards, Andreas Jaeger Director Platform / openSUSE, Novell -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2008-12-10 at 21:00 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 02:04:56 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I can only say that once the issue is public, you have, or your public relation person has, to give some kind of reasurances. This doesn't look nice.

Carlos,

I was tester in a similar program and communication was strictly within provided forums, no word outside. Vendor did not want discussion to be public, I agreed to that, and who would be to blame if I couldn't keep my mouth shut. Believe me, they provided all communication channels needed, from download, bug reporting to contact mail in case of problems, so there was no need to ask around.

I don't object to that. Their rules :-) What I meant is, that there has been some problem with communication, there has been complaints in public, and so, to mend things, there must be some kind of public reasurance. Novell has failed here somewhat. If they want to keep things in private, they must have some clear to reach private communication channel that doesn't fail (humanly and technically). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAklBBiAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VUYQCfSHdyvs1I+ZFCWg9todoO+RMu bhEAn2w6DN/01t5DTRdJ3vEsovLJhkvR =x5nO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 07:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Thursday, 2008-12-11 at 11:37 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

"Carlos E. R." <> writes:

...

So, please, someone, please clarify the problem in private with the OP, and then tell us that it is solved and every body is happy.

I'm under the impresseion that it's solved already - just not to Andrew's satisfaction - but I will followup with Andrew again,

Thanks! That's all I wanted :-)

Andreas Jaeger did follow up with my in private. I suppose this matter is resolved -- but as AJ stated, not to my satisfaction. But this still does not resolve the underlying problem. I do have access to the beta program but not to the discussion list os-sle11@suse.de. Yes, there many beta programs, yes there is no support for the betas, yada, yada, yada. But how do you expect to distribute a beta and provide no communication at all? **What is the issue with granting the persons that currently have access to an active beta program access to a mailing list established with the sole discuss said beta? Especially when you do not want the beta discussed in public? Any time I raise a question the answer is "there are many beta programs, get in touch with your contact" -- but that person, for whatever reason, no longer has a valid Novell email address. I was jumping to conclusions that Chuck was "fired"... but the point is everyone else points me to somewhere else on the merry-go-round. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org