[opensuse-factory] How to push GNOME 3 to Factory?

Vincent Untz

26 Apr 2011 26 Apr '11

08:39

Hi, Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F. There's some integration work to do and patches to rebase (we filed bugs for all of those), but I believe none of this should block a push to Factory. If the testing of G:F goes well this week, I'd like to do the push at the end of the week. I'd like to hear what people think is best to deal with this push, as it will be a big push, that needs to be handled with some care: + some package have really a lot of changes, and it's painful to review that (which is partly why it took so much time to review the changes) + there are some new packages we can't submit before the push because they will cause issues in Factory (eg, providing a library that exist in another package in Factory) + there are some new packages that are just the 2.x/3.x branches of existing packages (gtkmm2 vs gtkmm3, for example) + we probably will need a rebuild of everything since it'll be hard to push/accept packages in the best order in terms of build dependencies + if we need to freeze Factory soon (for a milestone, eg), we can't have half of the packages accepted and the other half rejected Do you have any opinion on what's best? Should we just push everything as usual, or do you want us to take some extra care in some way? Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Jiri Slaby

26 Apr 26 Apr

09:39

On 04/26/2011 10:39 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F.

Hi, will it be possible to use GNOME 2 after the push still? I tried G3 last week and it is unusable crap from the point of usability (not code quality). All may be my failure to set that all up. But that's the problem of the window manager if it cannot offer easy access to such settings, not mine. To be explicit, for example absence of applets (CPU+net monitor, status tray with all the programs hidden there like IM, gmpc etc.) renders that 3 thing into something like twm. I was not able to setup 2x2 desktops (instead of 1x4) or add a new panel (I don't want a panel on the top of the screen and I don't want the status messages appear in the middle of bottom where I have terminals and every song switch hides the line I'm editing). I couldn't add anything to the destkop. Maybe I should not use gnome-shell, if it is possible at all? But that whole thing seems not to be configurable at all. Not listing the idea of hiding all the settings away from user and adding it back via the tweak tool (like to disable suspend when closing the lid). That is idiocy per se. But this was discussed/flamed several times already. Do not do the same mistake like KDE 4.0 did when merged to distros causing people to run away with scream. thanks, -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jiri Slaby

09:43

On 04/26/2011 11:39 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...

But that whole thing seems not to be configurable at all.

Oh, and I'm counting a trivial thing like cannot-set-clock-to-show-seconds in. regards, -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Robert Kaiser

12:42

Jiri Slaby schrieb:

...

On 04/26/2011 11:39 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...
But that whole thing seems not to be configurable at all.

Oh, and I'm counting a trivial thing like cannot-set-clock-to-show-seconds in.

That's all probably very intentional. GNOME always was the configure-as-little-as-possible camp, they did go very strict on having as few as possible configuration options back when GNOME 2 was new, then softened gradually up over a long time, and now tightened that strictly again with GNOME 3. It's hard to find configurations that fit as many people as possible, and while KDE tends to go on the side of having a jungle of options, GNOME tends to go on having as few as in any way possible. Both ways have their pros and cons, you just need to be aware what side your system is on before criticizing it for its decisions. ;-) Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Malcolm

13:52

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: How to push GNOME 3 to Factory?

On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:43:59 +0200 Jiri Slaby wrote:

...

On 04/26/2011 11:39 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...
But that whole thing seems not to be configurable at all.

Oh, and I'm counting a trivial thing like cannot-set-clock-to-show-seconds in.

regards, gsettings set org.gnome.shell.clock show-seconds true

-- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.37.1-1.2-desktop up 2 days 14:31, 4 users, load average: 0.05, 0.11, 0.13 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 270.41.06 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jiri Slaby

17:36

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: How to push GNOME 3 to Factory?

On 04/26/2011 03:52 PM, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:43:59 +0200 Jiri Slaby wrote:

...
On 04/26/2011 11:39 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...
But that whole thing seems not to be configurable at all.

Oh, and I'm counting a trivial thing like cannot-set-clock-to-show-seconds in.

gsettings set org.gnome.shell.clock show-seconds true

Hmm, but this is not viable for most users... Anyway this particular thing became easily configurable (by mouse) in the current gnome:next. thanks, -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

09:52

Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 11:39 +0200, Jiri Slaby a écrit :

...

On 04/26/2011 10:39 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F.

Hi, will it be possible to use GNOME 2 after the push still? I tried G3 last week and it is unusable crap from the point of usability (not code quality).

No, GNOME 2 won't be available, but the fallback mode will still be there. You can force it in the system settings. For more details, see http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2011/04/13/gnome-panel-is-dead%2C-long-liv...

...

All may be my failure to set that all up. But that's the problem of the window manager if it cannot offer easy access to such settings, not mine. To be explicit, for example absence of applets (CPU+net monitor, status tray with all the programs hidden there like IM, gmpc etc.) renders that 3 thing into something like twm. I was not able to setup 2x2 desktops (instead of 1x4) or add a new panel (I don't want a panel on the top of the screen and I don't want the status messages appear in the middle of bottom where I have terminals and every song switch hides the line I'm editing). I couldn't add anything to the destkop. Maybe I should not use gnome-shell, if it is possible at all? But that whole thing seems not to be configurable at all.

Just answering to various of your points (not debating whether things are better or worse): - I'm still surprised nobody has written an extension for cpu+net monitor yet. I'm sure this will come soon, though. - status tray is there, at the bottom of the screen (move your mouse in the lower right corner) - indeed, it's not possible to setup 2x2 workspaces - it's not possible to add a new panel or move the top panel - you can add things to the desktop, but for that, you need to do the following: gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.background show-desktop-icons true (and possibly make nautilus start on login)

...

Not listing the idea of hiding all the settings away from user and adding it back via the tweak tool (like to disable suspend when closing the lid). That is idiocy per se. But this was discussed/flamed several times already.

Do not do the same mistake like KDE 4.0 did when merged to distros causing people to run away with scream.

FWIW, the next version of openSUSE will have GNOME 3.2, not 3.0. So a lot of things will have changed, and various things annoying people right now will be fixed. If people want to maintain GNOME 2 in openSUSE, they're welcome to do so but right now, the GNOME team doesn't have resources for that... Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

16:47

<snip>

...

If people want to maintain GNOME 2 in openSUSE, they're welcome to do so but right now, the GNOME team doesn't have resources for that...

That's something I can help with most likely. So if someone steps up for this, I'm willing to help on that. NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jiri Slaby

17:50

On 04/26/2011 11:52 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 11:39 +0200, Jiri Slaby a écrit :

...
On 04/26/2011 10:39 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F.

Hi, will it be possible to use GNOME 2 after the push still? I tried G3 last week and it is unusable crap from the point of usability (not code quality).

No, GNOME 2 won't be available, but the fallback mode will still be there. You can force it in the system settings. For more details, see http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2011/04/13/gnome-panel-is-dead%2C-long-liv...

Yes, this is really helpful. Thanks.

...

FWIW, the next version of openSUSE will have GNOME 3.2, not 3.0. So a lot of things will have changed, and various things annoying people right now will be fixed.

Hopefully. However before that happens people might migrate away. thanks, -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Guido Berhoerster

13:26

* Jiri Slaby [2011-04-26 11:39]:

...

On 04/26/2011 10:39 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F.

Hi, will it be possible to use GNOME 2 after the push still? I tried G3 last week and it is unusable crap from the point of usability (not code quality).

All may be my failure to set that all up. But that's the problem of the window manager if it cannot offer easy access to such settings, not mine. To be explicit, for example absence of applets (CPU+net monitor, status tray with all the programs hidden there like IM, gmpc etc.) renders that 3 thing into something like twm. I was not able to setup 2x2 desktops (instead of 1x4) or add a new panel (I don't want a panel on the top of the screen and I don't want the status messages appear in the middle of bottom where I have terminals and every song switch hides the line I'm editing). I couldn't add anything to the destkop. Maybe I should not use gnome-shell, if it is possible at all? But that whole thing seems not to be configurable at all.

Not listing the idea of hiding all the settings away from user and adding it back via the tweak tool (like to disable suspend when closing the lid). That is idiocy per se. But this was discussed/flamed several times already.

Have you checked out Xfce yet? It doesn't provide all the functionality GNOME 2 had but it is pretty configurable and should be a good enough substitute in most cases, at least it provides all of what you mention above. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Greg KH

13:24

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 10:39:31AM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Hi,

Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F. There's some integration work to do and patches to rebase (we filed bugs for all of those), but I believe none of this should block a push to Factory.

If the testing of G:F goes well this week, I'd like to do the push at the end of the week.

I'd like to hear what people think is best to deal with this push, as it will be a big push, that needs to be handled with some care:

+ some package have really a lot of changes, and it's painful to review that (which is partly why it took so much time to review the changes) + there are some new packages we can't submit before the push because they will cause issues in Factory (eg, providing a library that exist in another package in Factory) + there are some new packages that are just the 2.x/3.x branches of existing packages (gtkmm2 vs gtkmm3, for example) + we probably will need a rebuild of everything since it'll be hard to push/accept packages in the best order in terms of build dependencies + if we need to freeze Factory soon (for a milestone, eg), we can't have half of the packages accepted and the other half rejected

Do you have any opinion on what's best? Should we just push everything as usual, or do you want us to take some extra care in some way?

As long as the build doesn't break, I say just push it all in as usual :) thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

13:33

Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 06:24 -0700, Greg KH a écrit :

...

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 10:39:31AM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Do you have any opinion on what's best? Should we just push everything as usual, or do you want us to take some extra care in some way?

As long as the build doesn't break, I say just push it all in as usual :)

So, that's another thing :-) It might break the build of some other packages (because of changes in GNOME libraries), but we don't know about that yet. Maybe we should do a build in Staging first? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Greg KH

13:42

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 03:33:48PM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 06:24 -0700, Greg KH a écrit :

...
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 10:39:31AM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Do you have any opinion on what's best? Should we just push everything as usual, or do you want us to take some extra care in some way?

As long as the build doesn't break, I say just push it all in as usual :)

So, that's another thing :-) It might break the build of some other packages (because of changes in GNOME libraries), but we don't know about that yet. Maybe we should do a build in Staging first?

I think that's up to you and how fast you think you will be able to respond to any problems that occur. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

14:09

Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 06:42 -0700, Greg KH a écrit :

...

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 03:33:48PM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 06:24 -0700, Greg KH a écrit :

...
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 10:39:31AM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
Do you have any opinion on what's best? Should we just push everything as usual, or do you want us to take some extra care in some way?

As long as the build doesn't break, I say just push it all in as usual :)

So, that's another thing :-) It might break the build of some other packages (because of changes in GNOME libraries), but we don't know about that yet. Maybe we should do a build in Staging first?

I think that's up to you and how fast you think you will be able to respond to any problems that occur.

s/you/we/ as really it might affect packages that the GNOME team never heard about ;-) I'm just unclear if we can use Staging for a change like the GNOME 3 push, that will include something like 150+ packages. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Kim Leyendecker

13:49

Am 26.04.2011 15:33, schrieb Vincent Untz:

...

So, that's another thing:-) It might break the build of some other packages (because of changes in GNOME libraries) Isn´t there any compatibility-layer? , but we don't know about that yet. Maybe we should do a build in Staging first?

thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

14:08

Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 15:49 +0200, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

...

Am 26.04.2011 15:33, schrieb Vincent Untz:

...
So, that's another thing:-) It might break the build of some other packages (because of changes in GNOME libraries) Isn´t there any compatibility-layer?

Not necessarily, some libraries are compatible with older versions, some are not. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

28 Apr 28 Apr

08:30

Am Dienstag, 26. April 2011 schrieb Vincent Untz:

...

Hi,

Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F. There's some integration work to do and patches to rebase (we filed bugs for all of those), but I believe none of this should block a push to Factory.

If the testing of G:F goes well this week, I'd like to do the push at the end of the week.

I'd like to hear what people think is best to deal with this push, as it will be a big push, that needs to be handled with some care:

+ some package have really a lot of changes, and it's painful to review that (which is partly why it took so much time to review the changes) + there are some new packages we can't submit before the push because they will cause issues in Factory (eg, providing a library that exist in another package in Factory) + there are some new packages that are just the 2.x/3.x branches of existing packages (gtkmm2 vs gtkmm3, for example) + we probably will need a rebuild of everything since it'll be hard to push/accept packages in the best order in terms of build dependencies + if we need to freeze Factory soon (for a milestone, eg), we can't have half of the packages accepted and the other half rejected

Do you have any opinion on what's best? Should we just push everything as usual, or do you want us to take some extra care in some way?

We will not make a milestone 0 before GNOME 3 is in, so don't worry about that. Please submit as much as possible as early as possible, we will have a broken/incomplete GNOME in factory for a while anyway - so submit what you're satisfied with and fix it up later. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

2 May 2 May

09:26

Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 10:39 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :

...

Hi,

Today, hopefully, we'll finish the review of GNOME 3 packages for G:F. There's some integration work to do and patches to rebase (we filed bugs for all of those), but I believe none of this should block a push to Factory.

If the testing of G:F goes well this week, I'd like to do the push at the end of the week.

We submitted GNOME 3 to Factory this morning. At least Dominique and I have been running Factory + GNOME:Factory without any major issue. A few things that might be important: + NetworkManager 0.9 was also submitted. + based on what we've seen in GNOME:Apps, this will likely create some additional build failures. We're willing to help there, and we will provide some instructions for the most common issues (watch opensuse-packaging). + if you upgrade to Factory to get it, before reporting bugs like "it doesn't work", please check carefully that all packages were upgraded. And of course, you'll likely need to wait a bit to let the autobuild team review the packages and the build service build them. + at this point, reports like "GNOME 3 is less usable for me than GNOME 2" will not help us, especially as we still need to get the dust settled. My suggestion is either to report the issues upstream or to create a wiki page listing those issues, so we can point people (including upstream) to it. Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Greg KH
Guido Berhoerster
Jiri Slaby
Kim Leyendecker
Malcolm
Nelson Marques
Robert Kaiser
Stephan Kulow
Vincent Untz