On 10/31/2015 10:55 AM, Trent Hawkins wrote:

On 29 October 2015 at 05:54, Roman Bysh wrote:

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Hi all,

Follow question an earlier thread about the suggested default font. Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen? Yeah i second this query. Default Oxygen font set is not particularly aesthetically pleasing!

Cheers, Trent I'm not sure what ended up being decided / done but its now far to late to change it.

Cheers Simon

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What about the fixed width font? Noto Sans has no monospace font.

-- Cheers!

Roman

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On 31 October 2015 at 12:15, Felix Miata wrote:

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898 discusses.

Thanks for the link. Will investigate. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):

Wed, 28 Oct 2015 14:54:31 -0400, Roman Bysh composed:

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Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?

FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.

Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or suggest who might know? Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen stay a require? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

šumski composed on 2015-10-31 22:07 (UTC+0100):

Felix Miata wrote:

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Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):

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FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.

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Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or suggest who might know?

Because it's default font. We rather not want something like that be missing.

Who is we? Isn't requires supposed to be reserved for avoiding breakage or total failure, rather than simply providing what theme, packagers and/or upstream simply "want"? I want to *never* have to see Oxygen Sans or Oxygen Mono on any of my own installations, which as things stand, conflicts with my interest in running Plasma5. Needing to rpm -e --nodeps after every upgrade gets old, but establishes that the Oxygen dependency is a non-essential edict.

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Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen stay a require?

Yes. Yes. Oxygen mono is still default monospace font (AFAICS)

I thought the same people begging for Noto for proportional were also calmoring for Source Code Pro for monospace (not that it matters here, as fc-match on generics here always produces a Droid)??? If "we want" is the only reason for installing any font, it should be a suggests or recommends. Otherwise it's bloatware, which should be avoidable by those who want lean installations. Requiring both Noto and Oxygen means double bloat, unless most other DE's "want" them as well, or DejaVu, intlfonts, efont-unicode-bitmap-fonts and/or others that have been being installed by default for many years stop being part of base X and most DE patterns. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

šumski composed on 2015-11-03 19:41 (UTC+0100):

Felix Miata wrote:

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šumski composed on 2015-10-31 22:07 (UTC+0100):

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Felix Miata wrote:

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Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):

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FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.

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Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or suggest who might know?

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Because it's default font. We rather not want something like that be missing.

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Who is we?

We the people.

Lots of people on this planet. :-p Which people are "we"? KDE dev upstream dev people? KDE user people (by voting or polling)? SLE/openSUSE KDE packager people? Independent font expert people? SLE/openSUSE font expert people? People who prefer them in a direct side by side comparison of Oxygen with similar fonts? More than a pittance of people with poorer than average visual acuity? A11Y or U7Y people?

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Isn't requires supposed to be reserved for avoiding breakage or total failure, rather than simply providing what theme, packagers and/or upstream simply "want"?

Yes and no. I'd say recommends applies for additional features, and requires for default ones.

IMO the "defaults" should require only those that the distro overall picks, and individual DEs should not compel installation of more, merely prefer them if/when available. Absence of a particular font family for which generically equivalent glyphs are available doesn't *break* anything other than maybe themers' egos.

That KDE applications are working w/o Oxygen font is only an accident.

It does not look like that is the case here. Certainly 'rpm -e --nodeps kde-oxygen-fonts' produces no observed failure here of Plasma or KDE5 apps to start or function normally.

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I want to *never* have to see Oxygen Sans or Oxygen Mono on any of my own installations, which as things stand, conflicts with my interest in running Plasma5. Needing to rpm -e --nodeps after every upgrade gets old, but establishes that the Oxygen dependency is a non-essential edict.

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Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen stay a require?

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Yes. Yes. Oxygen mono is still default monospace font (AFAICS)

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I thought the same people begging for Noto for proportional were also calmoring for Source Code Pro for monospace (not that it matters here, as fc-match on generics here always produces a Droid)???

Not those people.

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If "we want" is the only reason for installing any font, it should be a suggests or recommends. Otherwise it's bloatware, which should be avoidable by those who want lean installations. Requiring both Noto and Oxygen means double bloat, unless most other DE's "want" them as well, or DejaVu, intlfonts, efont-unicode-bitmap-fonts and/or others that have been being installed by default for many years stop being part of base X and most DE patterns.

Let's agree to disagree.

Let's not, at least for now, and hear what others have to say. I looked, and cannot find any evidence of superiority between Oxygen and similar fonts that have been choosen for the distro overall, let alone any characteristic justifying mandatory installation. Oxygen's typically (though slightly) lighter apparent stroke weight actually makes them worse than average, absent use at sizes larger than would otherwise be appropriate. See: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898 fonts are ugly compared to Mint and Ubuntu Samples facilitating side-by-side comparison: http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/fonts-comps-oxy.html Screenshots taken using the above, at various display densities, with and without AA applied: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-108aa0.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-108full.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-120full.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-132aa0.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-132full.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-168aa0.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-168full.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-192full.png Oxygen samples, 7pt-20pt & 9px-32px: http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-oxygen.html Same/similar for the others used in above comparisons: http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-dejasans.html http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-droidsans.html http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-libsans.html http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-noto.html http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-roboto.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire composed on 2015-11-04 19:08 (UTC-0300):

Felix Miata wrote:

A requires I would think is correct since you have to guarantee that *at least one* font for each family will be available.

Can anyone name any visual DE that ever required a particular font be installed, and failed to function if it was not available?

If other packages pull in other fonts, that's the accident.

Which font set to require is probably debatable (and has actually been debated), but at least one has to be required or you can end up with a fontless installation if nothing else pulls any of the required fonts.

Even if an installation was in fact fontless to start with, # zypper rm xorg-x11-fonts-core Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Resolving package dependencies... The following 16 packages are going to be REMOVED: graphviz-gnome xf86-input-evdev xf86-input-keyboard xf86-input-mouse xf86-input-vmmouse xf86-input-void xf86-video-ati xf86-video-fbdev xf86-video-intel xf86-video-modesetting xf86-video-vesa xorg-x11-driver-video xorg-x11-driver-video-nouveau xorg-x11-fonts xorg-x11-fonts-core xorg-x11-server some font would nevertheless be installable from vtty login. Virtually all my installations start out minimal, either X or server. It's no disaster to forget to install some ttf package prior to starting X. It's happened here.

What you should probably do is inspect which other font is replacing Oxygen when it's removed,and figure out which package is pulling in that font set, and then perhaps a decision can be made (maybe fix the requires to match so that only one font set is pulled in rather than a multitude).

If you installed the other font set manually,you cannot remove the requires on Oxygen. That could cause breakage when people don't install alternative fonts manually like you did.

# rpm -q --requires dejavu-fonts /bin/sh /bin/sh /bin/sh aaa_base coreutils coreutils coreutils perl rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1 rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1 rpmlib(PayloadIsLzma) <= 4.4.6-1 Looks to me like DejaVu should be more than enough as a starting point at least for EN if not all but the most obscure locales. According to bug 951898 it looks like just about any DE pattern including any kind of openSUSE branding is destined to expand DejaVu's coverage via Noto and/or Roboto and/or Source Code Pro, if it hasn't already.

I'm not sure why can't you just ignore Oxygen?

1: wastes updates time 2: wastes updates bandwidth 3: wastes fontconfig overhead 4: wastes disk space 5: Fontconfig can provide it, thus web pages that call it will succeed in deference to user wishes 6: violates spirit of traditional FOSS freedom of configurability to require anything whose absence doesn't break necessary functionality 7: Bloat purely on account of personal taste of someone other than a system user/owner. Suggests and/or recommends should be sufficient for any package for which functional breakage would not result from its absence. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/05/2015 07:51 AM, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2015, 18:17:27 schrieb Felix Miata:

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I'm not sure why can't you just ignore Oxygen?

1: wastes updates time 2: wastes updates bandwidth 3: wastes fontconfig overhead 4: wastes disk space 5: Fontconfig can provide it, thus web pages that call it will succeed in deference to user wishes 6: violates spirit of traditional FOSS freedom of configurability to require anything whose absence doesn't break necessary functionality 7: Bloat purely on account of personal taste of someone other than a system user/owner.

Come on, this is getting ridiculous... We are talking about a package with 3! true type fonts here that is 67 KiB in size! (installed on your hard disk it takes 150 KiB)

Your mails on the topic probably wasted more bandwidth already... ;)

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Suggests and/or recommends should be sufficient for any package for which functional breakage would not result from its absence.

There is one functional breakage I am aware of if the Oxygen fonts are not installed: Konsole gets a proportional fallback font, which results in totally broken layout/cursor placement.

And as already has been mentioned, Plasma 5.5 will switch to using Noto as default anyway (upstream). Although I'm not sure what will happen to the monospace default. If it stays at Oxygen Mono, we could split out this one font to a separate package I suppose, maybe that would make you happy.

Kind Regards, Wolfgang

That is great news. When can we expect Plasma 5.5 to appear in Tumbleweed? -- Cheers! Roman IRC: 551368250 ============== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org