Il 22/08/2016 14:07, Dave Plater ha scritto:

I've hopefully remedied the situation by adding a genisoimage symlink to mkisofs, will work according to the kiwi developer and I've submitted that cdrtools and the updated patterns-openSUSE to Factory. Regards Dave P

But the question is, why kiwi in pattern console ? Bye, Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 14:11 +0200, Daniele wrote:

Il 22/08/2016 14:07, Dave Plater ha scritto:

...

I've hopefully remedied the situation by adding a genisoimage symlink to mkisofs, will work according to the kiwi developer and I've submitted that cdrtools and the updated patterns-openSUSE to Factory. Regards Dave P

But the question is, why kiwi in pattern console ?

kiwi is not - but it happens to be used to build all our products - so we have to be quite careful with what it conflicts with. What I'd be more wondering: why is wodim a requirement on the console? With the optical devices disappearing more and more, I'd argue that we can just drop wodim from the console pattern without replacement. The current console pattern has these dependenices declared: Description    :                               Applications useful for those using the console and no graphical desktop environment. Requires       : [6]                           w3m     mc     wodim     rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1     rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1     rpmlib(PayloadIsLzma) <= 4.4.6-1 Recommends     : [4]                           vorbis-tools     mtools     sox     emacs-nox why is there emacs and no vim ? :) (please, don't reply to that) I fully get w3m and mc as requriements (well, they can be argued about, but I do see benefits for them) * mtools I wonder if anybody even knows about the tools - but fine * vorbis-tools: well, why not * sox : not sure - the description says: SOX is really only usable day- to-day if you hide the wacky options with one-line shell scripts.   => does not sound like a package we have to install for everybody * wodim: I argue that we can drop this from the pattern. Discussion is open - any takers for the work?

On Monday 2016-08-22 14:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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why is there emacs and no vim ? :) (please, don't reply to that)

I'm surprised. I thought that both were replaced with joe years ago. The reasoning was, IIRC, that it was smaller and usable by novices. Maybe the idea is to use 'mcedit' now?

It is not so much about mcedit, I would say. mc(edit), much like nc, is quite focused on Fx keys and the classic 6-key Home/End block, which is the set of keys that has been most messed up layout-wise by manufacturers over the past 15 years on both ~84-key and ~104-key keyboards. It is mc which comes in handy, for example if you want to enter/analyze RPM archives or tarballs like a directory without first extracting them with the awkward rpm2cpio|cpio call, and removing the trash after inspection. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 14:33 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Monday 2016-08-22 14:20, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

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* mtools I wonder if anybody even knows about the tools - but fine * vorbis-tools: well, why not * sox : not sure - the description says: SOX is really only usable day- to-day if you hide the wacky options with one-line shell scripts.   => does not sound like a package we have to install for everybody * wodim: I argue that we can drop this from the pattern.

Discussion is open - any takers for the work?

"If you are not up for it, I am" ;-)

I want to give contributors a chance - after all, this change does not take any programmers skills - 'just' a bit of osc magic. We always have people that ask for 'easy tasks' to start contributing - this one is an easy task (once the discussion about the pattern change is concluded)

On 22/08/2016 14:20, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

What I'd be more wondering: why is wodim a requirement on the console? With the optical devices disappearing more and more, I'd argue that we can just drop wodim from the console pattern without replacement. The first time I tried to drop wodim from the console package, Coolo stated that wodim couldn't be replaced by cdrecord until kiwi could use mkisofs. I try this every time there's a "problem with dvd burning message" on the opensuse mailing list that gets solved by installing cdrtools.

Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 18:34 +0200, Dave Plater wrote:

On 22/08/2016 14:20, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

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What I'd be more wondering: why is wodim a requirement on the console? With the optical devices disappearing more and more, I'd argue that we can just drop wodim from the console pattern without replacement.

The first time I tried to drop wodim from the console package, Coolo  stated that wodim couldn't be replaced by cdrecord until kiwi could use  mkisofs. I try this every time there's a "problem with dvd burning  message" on the opensuse mailing list that gets solved by installing  cdrtools.

Right - and I'm not talking about replacing it in the pattern but outright dropping it from the pattern - I fail to see why this is needed on every system nowadays. Optical drives are just not that common anymore; and the tools would stick around to be installable if somebody wants to do so. Cheers, Dominique

On 08/23/2016 07:47 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar composed on 2016-08-22 22:19 (UTC+0200):

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...Optical drives are just not that common anymore...

If all you think about are cellphones, tablets and laptops, I'm sure that's true. However, there remain various common environments in which the flexibility of a more traditionally sized computer is important.

Not counting floppies, all the non-optical solid state media I own would easily fit inside the space a 3.5" HD consumes, while a 1000 litre or larger box would be required to fit all my OM (with their various sized protectors).

USB media still hasn't come close to the ample labeling space and use-once-&-discard pricing that OM enjoys.

IMO the time has not yet come to put OM drives in the same category as floppy and zip drives, and it may not even come in our lifetimes.

Just to confirm we are talking about removing this from the default install (when doing a text only install) not from removing it from openSUSE entirely, if you in particular still need this then feel free to install it when you do. Based off the fact my new laptop like a lot doesn't have a CD drive I guess that day is coming, I swapped to keeping 1 or 2 flash drives to dd images on for doing distro installs a fair while back. I think the differentiation where trying to make here is do _MOST_ people installing the console tools pattern need a CD burning program, I would presume that most systems that people run as console only aren't being used for CD burning so I tend to agree with removing it. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+9:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Per Jessen wrote:

Simon Lees wrote:

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I think the differentiation where trying to make here is do _MOST_ people installing the console tools pattern need a CD burning program, I would presume that most systems that people run as console only aren't being used for CD burning so I tend to agree with removing it.

Ditto, it does seem a pretty odd thing to install with the text-only pattern. Interestingly, on my most recent text-only installation, it wasn't installed either. (leap422 alpha). When Dave brought it up, he said :

...

and the console pattern still requires wodim which causes cdrtools to be uninstalled. This has caused many problems with the recording of dvds by k3b in the past.

I guess "the console pattern" is not the same as the text-only pattern?

Yeah, they're not the same ... patterns-openSUSE-console. It was Simon's mentioning of "when doing a text only install" that threw me. I guess I've never installed the console pattern. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Simon Lees composed on 2016-08-22 10:14 (UTC+0930):

Felix Miata wrote:

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Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar composed on 2016-08-22 22:19 (UTC+0200):

...

...

...Optical drives are just not that common anymore...

...

If all you think about are cellphones, tablets and laptops, I'm sure that's true. However, there remain various common environments in which the flexibility of a more traditionally sized computer is important.

...

Not counting floppies, all the non-optical solid state media I own would easily fit inside the space a 3.5" HD consumes, while a 1000 litre or larger box would be required to fit all my OM (with their various sized protectors).

...

USB media still hasn't come close to the ample labeling space and use-once-&-discard pricing that OM enjoys.

...

IMO the time has not yet come to put OM drives in the same category as floppy and zip drives, and it may not even come in our lifetimes.

Just to confirm we are talking about removing this from the default install (when doing a text only install) not from removing it from openSUSE entirely, if you in particular still need this then feel free to install it when you do.

Based off the fact my new laptop like a lot doesn't have a CD drive I

I would think using a laptop as context would be contrary to the reality of those heavily dependent on console tools.

guess that day is coming, I swapped to keeping 1 or 2 flash drives to dd images on for doing distro installs a fair while back.

I think the differentiation where trying to make here is do _MOST_ people installing the console tools pattern need a CD burning program, I would presume that most systems that people run as console only aren't

Why would you make that presumption? I would expect console tools users to be among those who want the most power from their system, which would not be phone, tablet or laptop users, but users of systems with the largest possible flexibility, full size keyboards, and the most available bays, stuffed with devices to make those bays useful.

being used for CD burning so I tend to agree with removing it.

I don't mind the idea of exclusion from the pattern as much as the likelihood that that exclusion might lead to its omission from the installation iso. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 14:07 +0200, Dave Plater wrote:

On 22/08/2016 13:30, Joerg Schilling wrote: Dave Plater wrote:

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Leap:42.2 is about to go beta and the console pattern still requires wodim which causes cdrtools to be uninstalled. This has caused many problems with the recording of dvds by k3b in the past. This requirement remains due to kiwi having a specific requirement for genisoimage. This requirement is removed in kiwi versions 8x but apparently there are some python packages that can't be accepted.

Applications that "need" genisoimage usually have not been updated since 2002. At that time, the former options -H/-L/-P have been deprecated in favor of the POSIX behavior of these options.

If unmaintained programs cannot be updated, it should be sufficient to  create a script "genisoimage" that contains:

#! /bin/sh - exec /usr/bin/mkisofs -legacy "$@"

Jörg

I've hopefully remedied the situation by adding a genisoimage symlink to  mkisofs, will work according to the kiwi developer and I've submitted  that cdrtools and the updated patterns-openSUSE to Factory. Regards Dave P

Sadly, at this point, I have to report that this did not work and building any new TW snapshot is currently broken - unless I start reverting various of the changes that went in here. The build of a kiwi image now fails with: [ 1423s] Sep-05 09:04:54 <3> : Failed to call /usr/bin/genisoimage: Bad Option '-allow-limited-size' (error -1 BADFLAG). If nobody speaks up soon enough, I'll have to start backing out of this change once again and revert to cdrkit-cdrtools-compat... but at least we learnt (again) something to consider for the next attempt :) Cheers, Dominique

On Mon, 2016-09-05 at 12:17 +0200, Dave Plater wrote:

On 05/09/2016 11:10, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 14:07 +0200, Dave Plater wrote:On 22/08/2016 13:30, Joerg Schilling wrote:Dave Plater wrote:Leap:42.2 is about to go beta and the console pattern stillrequireswodim which causes cdrtools to be uninstalled. This has caused manyproblems with the recording of dvds by k3b in the past. Thisrequirementremains due to kiwi having a specific requirement for genisoimage.Thisrequirement is removed in kiwi versions 8x but apparently there aresomepython packages that can't be accepted. Applications that "need" genisoimage usually have not been updatedsince 2002.At that time, the former options -H/-L/-P have been deprecated infavor of thePOSIX behavior of these options.If unmaintained programs cannot be updated, it should be sufficientto  create ascript "genisoimage" that contains:#! /bin/sh -exec /usr/bin/mkisofs -legacy "$@"JörgI've hopefully remedied the situation by adding a genisoimage symlinktomkisofs, will work according to the kiwi developer and I'vesubmittedthat cdrtools and the updated patterns-openSUSE to Factory.RegardsDave P Sadly, at this point, I have to report that this did not work andbuilding any new TW snapshot is currently broken - unless I startreverting various of the changes that went in here.The build of a kiwi image now fails with:[ 1423s] Sep-05 09:04:54 <3> : Failed to call /usr/bin/genisoimage: BadOption '-allow-limited-size' (error -1 BADFLAG).If nobody speaks up soon enough, I'll have to start backing out of thischange once again and revert to cdrkit-cdrtools-compat... but at leastwe learnt (again) something to consider for the next attempt :)Cheers,Dominique Kiwi-8 is fixed but is apparently held up by python packages but the changes to patterns-openSUSE should be enough to prevent the installation of wodim when a user clicks the console Kiwi-8 being fixed makes no difference, as TW does not use it yet to build. As a consequence, I started reverting bits and pieces. The symlinks provided by cdrtools-cdrkit-compat are invalid, as the command line parameters are not understood. imho, those should be dropped again. Cheers, Dominique

On 05/09/2016 12:32, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

On Mon, 2016-09-05 at 12:17 +0200, Dave Plater wrote:

...

On 05/09/2016 11:10, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote: On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 14:07 +0200, Dave Plater wrote:On 22/08/2016 13:30, Joerg Schilling wrote:Dave Plater wrote:Leap:42.2 is about to go beta and the console pattern stillrequireswodim which causes cdrtools to be uninstalled. This has caused manyproblems with the recording of dvds by k3b in the past. Thisrequirementremains due to kiwi having a specific requirement for genisoimage.Thisrequirement is removed in kiwi versions 8x but apparently there aresomepython packages that can't be accepted. Applications that "need" genisoimage usually have not been updatedsince 2002.At that time, the former options -H/-L/-P have been deprecated infavor of thePOSIX behavior of these options.If unmaintained programs cannot be updated, it should be sufficientto create ascript "genisoimage" that contains:#! /bin/sh -exec /usr/bin/mkisofs -legacy "$@"JörgI've hopefully remedied the situation by adding a genisoimage symlinktomkisofs, will work according to the kiwi developer and I'vesubmittedthat cdrtools and the updated patterns-openSUSE to Factory.RegardsDave P Sadly, at this point, I have to report that this did not work andbuilding any new TW snapshot is currently broken - unless I startreverting various of the changes that went in here.The build of a kiwi image now fails with:[ 1423s] Sep-05 09:04:54 <3> : Failed to call /usr/bin/genisoimage: BadOption '-allow-limited-size' (error -1 BADFLAG).If nobody speaks up soon enough, I'll have to start backing out of thischange once again and revert to cdrkit-cdrtools-compat... but at leastwe learnt (again) something to consider for the next attempt :)Cheers,Dominique Kiwi-8 is fixed but is apparently held up by python packages but the changes to patterns-openSUSE should be enough to prevent the installation of wodim when a user clicks the console

Kiwi-8 being fixed makes no difference, as TW does not use it yet to build. As a consequence, I started reverting bits and pieces.

The symlinks provided by cdrtools-cdrkit-compat are invalid, as the command line parameters are not understood. imho, those should be dropped again.

Cheers, Dominique I've reverted to pre symlink cdrtools and am just waiting for Jan to review and accept it. sr#424826 to multimedia:apps Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org