On 25.08.2014 10:23, Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Monday 25 of August 2014 11:45:39 Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

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I remember discussion about obsoleting ifconfig. So I was a bit surprised that "ip" was missing last time I installed factory. I mostly use minimal server install. Is it intentional? I do not suggest dropping ifconfig, but it obviously lacks features provided by ip.

In 13.1, iproute2 package is required by sysconfig-network which is recommended by sysconfig (which is required by base pattern). I guess this changed in Factory since wicked is now the default network configuration method so that sysconfig-network is no longer necessary.

But missing iproute2 would be really unfortunate, I believe even the minimal pattern should install it.

People seem to have all kind of definitions of what "minimal" should be. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 25.08.2014 14:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-08-25 13:42, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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But missing iproute2 would be really unfortunate, I believe even the minimal pattern should install it.

People seem to have all kind of definitions of what "minimal" should be.

IMHO, the contents of the minimal pattern should be debated. I consider it useless, like shooting on your own foot, so many crucial things are missing.

Or, have a "minimal" pattern, then a "text based (simple or not) server" pattern :-)

"server" is as undefined as "minimal" I'm afraid, so "minimal server" is the worst of all options ;( Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 14:58 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-08-25 14:47, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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On 25.08.2014 14:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Or, have a "minimal" pattern, then a "text based (simple or not) server" pattern :-)

"server" is as undefined as "minimal" I'm afraid, so "minimal server" is the worst of all options ;(

I would define a "text pattern" as having about the same components as a KDE/Gnome/XFCE pattern has, except X. And then replacements for the tools found in desktop patterns, for text mode, like file browsers and viewers (mc, liynx, joe, gpm, top, iptraf, pine/mutt, complete man/info pages, etc).

How about defining a new pattern, something like "networking" ? There might be servers that do not need networks.... hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 2014-08-25 14:47, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 25.08.2014 14:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2014-08-25 13:42, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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But missing iproute2 would be really unfortunate, I believe even the minimal pattern should install it.

People seem to have all kind of definitions of what "minimal" should be.

IMHO, the contents of the minimal pattern should be debated. I consider it useless, like shooting on your own foot, so many crucial things are missing.

Or, have a "minimal" pattern, then a "text based (simple or not) server" pattern :-)

"server" is as undefined as "minimal" I'm afraid, so "minimal server" is the worst of all options ;(

Well, the real minimal is application dependent :) zypper -R /fluff in --no-r app But that's unusable for real machines. Definitely included in a "usable minimal" pattern is that set of packages which is needed to boot the system, and to download more packages. No doubt: bootloader, kernel, shell, zypper, but not aaa_base-extras. The debatable things. For example: install from CD, install from wired network (+iproute2), install from wireless network (+crda and whatnot), install to iSCSI (+iscsi*). This wants to be weighted and ordered, and then someone defines a cutoff, which may be before wired, after wired, or after wireless support. But I guess you will find an overwhelming audience to support cutoff somewhere after iproute2, and somewhere before iscsi. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Stefan Schäfer wrote:

Our invis-server setup is based on the minimal-server pattern. I would prefer a special text based server pattern too. Actually installing the first server package like cups or something else leads to an package conflict. Bevore we can start our invis-setup we had to remove "patterns-openSUSE-minimal_base-conflicts".

A pattern that we prefer must be text based, but not minimal. Therefore i agree with Carlos.

We find the "minimal_base" pattern (or one of its pattern dependencies) pulls in too much. For our (AutoYAST-installed) servers, we only install the patterns "base" and "yast2_install_wf" and remove lots of packages like cantarell-fonts, checkmedia, crda, cups-libs, desktop-translations, ghostscript-*, gsettings-*, hicolor-icon-theme, …, yp*, … that are totally unneeded on servers. I would love to see both a "minimal_server" and "server" pattern. I'm willing to help, but will probably need a bit time to catch up. -- Kind regards Christopher 'm4z' Holm / 686f6c6d "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." --H. L. Mencken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

686f6c6d wrote:

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On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Stefan Schäfer wrote:

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Our invis-server setup is based on the minimal-server pattern. I would prefer a special text based server pattern too. Actually installing the first server package like cups or something else leads to an package conflict. Bevore we can start our invis-setup we had to remove "patterns-openSUSE-minimal_base-conflicts".

A pattern that we prefer must be text based, but not minimal. Therefore i agree with Carlos.

We find the "minimal_base" pattern (or one of its pattern dependencies) pulls in too much. For our (AutoYAST-installed) servers, we only install the patterns "base" and "yast2_install_wf" and remove lots of packages like cantarell-fonts, checkmedia, crda, cups-libs, desktop-translations, ghostscript-*, gsettings-*, hicolor-icon-theme, …, yp*, … that are totally unneeded on servers.

All that stuff certainly isn't part of the minimal text-only pattern.

My bad, the list was for 12.3. If you don't believe some of them, I can do a test install of 12.3. On 13.1 (did a test install just now), of the packages listed above only checkmedia and crda are still there. However, in a minimal 13.1 install, there are also fontconfig, nfs-client (YMMV), nfsidmap, nscd, ntfs-3g, wallpaper-branding-openSUSE, wireless-regdb, wireless-tools, wol (YMMV), xdm, xterm (the latter two pulled in by yast2_install_wf, which we don't install anymore on 13.1), xauth, xbitmaps, xrdb, some unnecessary perl packages and various libs (libXaw7, libXdmcp6, libXineramas3, libXmu6, libXpm4). Most of these are arguably fine for the default openSUSE use case of the desktop user, but strange for a text-only installation and unneeded for servers. -- Kind regards Christopher 'm4z' Holm / 686f6c6d "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." --H. L. Mencken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

В Tue, 26 Aug 2014 18:23:25 +0200 686f6c6d <686f6c6d@googlemail.com> пишет:

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On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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686f6c6d wrote:

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On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Stefan Schäfer wrote:

...

Our invis-server setup is based on the minimal-server pattern. I would prefer a special text based server pattern too. Actually installing the first server package like cups or something else leads to an package conflict. Bevore we can start our invis-setup we had to remove "patterns-openSUSE-minimal_base-conflicts".

A pattern that we prefer must be text based, but not minimal. Therefore i agree with Carlos.

We find the "minimal_base" pattern (or one of its pattern dependencies) pulls in too much. For our (AutoYAST-installed) servers, we only install the patterns "base" and "yast2_install_wf" and remove lots of packages like cantarell-fonts, checkmedia, crda, cups-libs, desktop-translations, ghostscript-*, gsettings-*, hicolor-icon-theme, …, yp*, … that are totally unneeded on servers.

All that stuff certainly isn't part of the minimal text-only pattern.

My bad, the list was for 12.3. If you don't believe some of them, I can do a test install of 12.3.

On 13.1 (did a test install just now), of the packages listed above only checkmedia and crda are still there. However, in a minimal 13.1 install, there are also fontconfig, nfs-client (YMMV), nfsidmap, nscd, ntfs-3g, wallpaper-branding-openSUSE, wireless-regdb, wireless-tools, wol

I wish package selection were more dynamic. Install wireless tools only when hardware was detected, install multipath-tools only when multipath devices were configured during installation (or iSCSI or FCoE). Of course complexity to implement it may outweigh space savings.

Which for a server install probably isn't overly critical anyway. Speaking for myself, it's not about space, it's about unnecessary clutter. I just dislike installing loads of stuff I know I will never need. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 25 August 2014 13:42:00 Stephan Kulow wrote:

People seem to have all kind of definitions of what "minimal" should be.

Which computer is usable without network configuration nowadays? Basic network tools sound very minimal to me :-) Kind regards, Erwin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Kubecek schrieb:

On Monday 25 of August 2014 11:45:39 Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

I remember discussion about obsoleting ifconfig. So I was a bit surprised that "ip" was missing last time I installed factory. I mostly use minimal server install. Is it intentional? I do not suggest dropping ifconfig, but it obviously lacks features provided by ip.

In 13.1, iproute2 package is required by sysconfig-network which is recommended by sysconfig (which is required by base pattern). I guess this changed in Factory since wicked is now the default network configuration method so that sysconfig-network is no longer necessary.

But missing iproute2 would be really unfortunate, I believe even the minimal pattern should install it.

Adjusting patterns is easier than ever before: https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/246366 If you are interested in the minimal pattern, there's some work to do as it grew a bit too large for my taste. Wallpapers and fonts get installed for example. So if you want to take a look feel free, here's a tool to help you: https://github.com/openSUSE/patterns ... 10757 dejavu-fonts 11456 ruby-stdlib 12478 systemd 12825 grub2-i386-pc 16685 grub2 19863 grub2-x86_64-efi 21657 python-base 28967 binutils 37540 perl 68429 kernel-firmware 116951 glibc-locale 218415 kernel-default 848028 TOTAL cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org