Torsdag den 19. november 2009 14:37:24 skrev Carlos E. R.:

On 11/19/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

And btw. support questions for released versions are completely off-topic here.

Should not be.

Not for a just released distro, because the people that have tested it and know the answers already lurk here. Many people in the main list are asking about issues that are old stuff here, but not known there. People go round and round trying to find the answer to a particular problem, that was perhaps reported here months ago - like not having a xorg.conf and how to fidle it.

So, please, give some leeway for a month or so :-)

We already have problems with developers not wanting to follow the list because of too much noise - allowing support questions won't help. But of course unfortunately my opinion is not the sole basis for decisions :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi Clayton, On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 13:22 +0100, Clayton wrote:

That "weird" Gnome Yast SW management module has been around for a couple of releases (since 10.3), and honestly it is probably the most difficult to use and illogical software management tool I've used across pretty much all Linux distros I've tried. There was a lot of stuff on the WIki about it (when the design was proposed and being worked on)... but I can't find it right now.

:-) So - Christian helped design it, with Ricardo - that effort happened mostly in public, AFAIR - as you say in the Wiki. If you had got involved then you could have changed it.

In theory, all you should have to do is remove the GTK YaST and install the QT version to get a more usable software management tool again.

So - just to put a stake in the ground; the Qt software management tool employs an incredibly un-intuitive triple-(or more?) state field in a tree-view to determine what to do with a package - simply keep clicking to rotate around the umpteen states. That may be usable to people who already know how it works ;-) but it is IMHO pretty shocking UI design. yast2-gtk's package selector (for it's various faults) doesn't do that.

I wonder if whoever put all that effort and work into the GTK version has ever done any work or research into usability and UI architecture... it would fail if I passed it by any professional UI architect I know. I raised this comment back when it was implemented and was dutifully shot down.

Perhaps it was not the most constructive feedback :-) However - it is easy to test; Garret / Jakub - any chance of a quick take on the relative merits of the UIs of both the yast2 gtk+ and qt package selectors - and how we can improve the former ? Thanks, Michael. -- michael.meeks@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Good day Michael :-) all recovered from Orvieto?

       :-) So - Christian helped design it, with Ricardo - that effort happened mostly in public, AFAIR - as you say in the Wiki. If you had got involved then you could have changed it.

Yup. I didn't discover it until after it was implemented though.

       So - just to put a stake in the ground; the Qt software management tool employs an incredibly un-intuitive triple-(or more?) state field in a tree-view to determine what to do with a package

No argument there. The old QT software manager is not the best either. That said, when I've dropped openSUSE on unsuspecting new users and I give them Gnome and KDE to try out (it has been a fairly even split between them picking KDE or Gnome), the standard comment I get from them about the GTK software manager usually centers around variations of WTF? They get horribly lost in the behavior of the right hand side.. although it may be obvious to those who use it all the time, new users are baffled trying to sort out what is being presented there... The QT one may be horrible in its circular patch, but at least the simplicity of what is being upgraded and what is being installed is somewhat clearer to a new user.... or so it seems amongst the people I help out with their very first attempts at using Linux.

       Perhaps it was not the most constructive feedback :-)

Perhaps not. :-) I was caught out by it though and quite annoyed and frustrated... trying to do phone support for someone hundreds of KM away, trying to walk them through software installation... and couldn't do it anymore since they had opted for Gnome and were caught up in the GTK interface... They were totally confused by how it worked. It took me a few tries at it myself... and since I never use it on my main machine I keep getting caught up by it on my Media Center (which up until recently was running with Gnome and the GTK YaST). I always seem to click the wrong things and end up sending it off to do things I don't want ti to do just yet.

       However - it is easy to test; Garret / Jakub - any chance of a quick take on the relative merits of the UIs of both the yast2 gtk+ and qt package selectors - and how we can improve the former ?

I'd like to see loads of improvements in both... ultimately I would really prefer that the ncurses one be left as it is (it works just fine over ssh etc.), and on the GUI side we have a single common interface - something along the lines of what Duncan suggested... actually this was the argument I unsuccessfully tried to put forth... a common interface... to simplify documentation, and support. But... like I said. I was informed on and off list that I was being silly (other words were used in private emails)... so I dropped it. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 19.11.2009 13:35, Katarina Machalkova wrote:

On Thursday 19 November 2009 12:18:02 David C. Rankin wrote:

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If so, can I make the gnome one back into the one I'm used to?

Uninstall yast2-gtk, install yast2-qt and yast2-qt-pkg.

Or you can install both UIs and call yast2 --qt sw_single or yast2 --gtk sw_single to use the UI you want. (This is useful if you want to check whether a bug is UI specific or is it a generic bug.) -- Best Regards Ladislav Slezák Yast Developer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: lslezak@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 19. november 2009 13:48:56 skrev Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett:

On Thursday 19 November 2009 12:18:02 David C. Rankin wrote:

...

On my gnome install I have a really weird yast sw management module. My guess is that it is just to gnome one, but I want to confirm. So do the normal and gnome yast software management apps really have that different of a UI? If so, can I make the gnome one back into the one I'm used to?

Yes. Some years ago the Desktop team pushed for this user interface in addition to the gtk native UI plugin.

I don't think the effort was worth it. Personally, I don't find the gnome version of the software management module easier.

Not to mention the added support load, from supporting users with two completely different package manager UIs, duplicate effort writing howtos etc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi Martin, On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 14:03 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

Torsdag den 19. november 2009 13:48:56 skrev Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett:

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I don't think the effort was worth it. Personally, I don't find the gnome version of the software management module easier.

Well - lets hope the "one yast2-web version to rule them all" comes soon, and we can drop the ncurses package manager at the same time as qt and gtk.

Not to mention the added support load, from supporting users with two completely different package manager UIs, duplicate effort writing howtos etc.

This is quite normal for the case of having multiple desktops - surely. In terms of concrete filed bugs vs. yast2-gtk I have seen very few over the years. Personally, I vastly prefer the gtk+ yast2 UI, and I have few-to-no problems with the software manager :-) of course, I am some kind of freak, so this is perhaps expected. The work also provided (for the first time), an accessible yast2 - which is presumably appreciated by some segment of the population (if people can remember that). Last I heard, it was possible to do rather a nice GNOME live-CD installation with no display, using the screen reader; though I havn't tested that in 11.2 recently. Regards, Michael. -- michael.meeks@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

2009/11/19 Michael Meeks :

...

On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 14:03 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Torsdag den 19. november 2009 13:48:56 skrev Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett:

...

I don't think the effort was worth it. Personally, I don't find the gnome version of the software management module easier. Well - lets hope the "one yast2-web version to rule them all" comes soon, and we can drop the ncurses package manager at the same time as qt and gtk.

Please NO! The fact that you get console mode tool, which works better than GUI on machines with low memory, or where you want to minimise disruption to "daily business" is a selling point of the distro.

Qt v KDE v GTK graphical tool kit stuff is about stylistic differences, whereas ncurses(3) features offer genuine functionality where a graphical environment is inconvenient.

Using web from another machine presupposes that networking is running, you can be in/out with ncurses(3) yast almost before you'ld have logged in & got into YaST, in graphics mode.

Seconded - I regularly use the ncurses version via simple ssh, much quicker even on modern hardware. Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Michael Meeks wrote:

Well - lets hope the "one yast2-web version to rule them all" comes soon, and we can drop the ncurses package manager at the same time as qt and gtk.

What on Earth are you talking about? Dropping ncurses yast? Please say it's a typo or something. Maybe a brain fart? Vahis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sankar P wrote:

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Vahis wrote:

...

Michael Meeks wrote:

...

Well - lets hope the "one yast2-web version to rule them all" comes soon, and we can drop the ncurses package manager at the same time as qt and gtk.

What on Earth are you talking about? Dropping ncurses yast?

Please say it's a typo or something. Maybe a brain fart?

<snip> If you want something less resource intensive and doesn't like GUI, use zypper.

So you think YaST is only for software management?

imho, "brain-fart" is too harsh a word to use in this discussion.

And commandline interface to YaST over ssh without GUI, neither in client nor server is something very important. YaST makes openSUSE unique as such, ncurses yast even more. It's about remote administration in general, not just clickety software management. Don't say something should be dropped if you don't know what it is. -- Vahis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 09:00, Sankar P wrote: [...]

I am surprised that still there exists networks with a need for remote admin, but none of the client machines not being able to run a GUI browser. Understand that I (or anyone) didn't demand a removal of yast-ncurses and filed a FATE request for it. It is just a personal opinion on the yast front end future as I perceive it. Well I guess you have never been away on vacation somewhere where net access is slower than molasses speeding uphill and had to fix something on a remote machine cause your boss told you fix it or else. I can't say that I have had that occur to me, but I am sure there are ppl out there who have. The fact that a gui exists does not mean that it appropiate in all circumstances. Sometimes, guis just get in the way of doing things efficiently.

ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Pablo Picasso - "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/pablo_picasso.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Il 20/11/2009 12:02, ne... ha scritto:

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 09:00, Sankar P wrote: [...]

...

I am surprised that still there exists networks with a need for remote admin, but none of the client machines not being able to run a GUI browser. Understand that I (or anyone) didn't demand a removal of yast-ncurses and filed a FATE request for it. It is just a personal opinion on the yast front end future as I perceive it. Well I guess you have never been away on vacation somewhere where net access is slower than molasses speeding uphill and had to fix something on a remote machine cause your boss told you fix it or else. I can't say that I have had that occur to me, but I am sure there are ppl out there who have. The fact that a gui exists does not mean that it appropiate in all circumstances. Sometimes, guis just get in the way of doing things efficiently.

ne...

and also rember that lots of sys admin use SSH as secure remore connection... and ncurses gui is much easier to use. - -- - ------------------------------------------ Andrea Florio QSI International School of Brindisi Sys Admin openSUSE-Education Administrator openSUSE Official Member (anubisg1) Email: andrea@opensuse.org Packman Packaging Team Email: andrea@links2linux.de Web: http://packman.links2linux.org/ Cell: +39-328-7365667 - ------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksGhP4ACgkQyCZT87TFPuj1bwCcC54gZulIp8SNsqLTjhKTYwzS jUkAmQGLdIyghAtfdx4WhQBJlkUbNwKB =d6fx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 i fully agree but untill somebody make possible to have an "un-branded SLES" (like red-hat and centOS) that will happen. on my case if i don't want to pay lots of money i have to use openSUSE. i think that instead drop very very useful packages we just have to made a better work on pattern.. example, as you sed, a desktop user will not use several yast modules like "yast2-vm" or IMHO either apparmor. and many other "server related" modules. i agree with the "do not install it by default but provide it". any way, ncurses yast is still useful if X for any reason broken. Andrea Il 20/11/2009 16:55, Vincent Untz ha scritto:

Le vendredi 20 novembre 2009, à 13:01 +0100, Andrea Florio a écrit :

...

and also rember that lots of sys admin use SSH as secure remore connection... and ncurses gui is much easier to use.

And here we come back to the question of what is our primary target audience. You are interested in the sysadmin case, but some contributors are more interested in desktop users who are not sysadmins.

Until we answer this question, there will be disagreements on topics like this.

For example, my personal take is that a lot of yast modules aren't needed for a standard desktop user (which doesn't mean they should be available for installation, of course). [Note that I'm not pushing for this change, this is just an example of a similar topic where people will disagree]

Vincent

- -- - ------------------------------------------ Andrea Florio QSI International School of Brindisi Sys Admin openSUSE-Education Administrator openSUSE Official Member (anubisg1) Email: andrea@opensuse.org Packman Packaging Team Email: andrea@links2linux.de Web: http://packman.links2linux.org/ Cell: +39-328-7365667 - ------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksGxysACgkQyCZT87TFPuhKtACeLqD8sciGPrzz4nMGgJ+H4EGI +tYAoNjQVmvJ4BzhQ8d+2P3nkEYT9jQ6 =DM6G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/20/2009 04:55 PM, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le vendredi 20 novembre 2009, à 13:01 +0100, Andrea Florio a écrit :

...

and also rember that lots of sys admin use SSH as secure remore connection... and ncurses gui is much easier to use.

And here we come back to the question of what is our primary target audience. You are interested in the sysadmin case, but some contributors are more interested in desktop users who are not sysadmins.

There are machines with no GUI, or with a broken GUI. How would you use YaST there? maybe you are a home user, with no other machine on which to use webyast. Maybe the network is also broken. No, please, don't even think of removing the ncurses interface. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2-ex-factory "Emerald" GM) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksH6IsACgkQU92UU+smfQVogwCfbapCy2A2f2deTkTdaQX5S/fa XsAAoIrgjtT+m4ow5GZFax/7vzAImhWI =TTk0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/23 Vincent Untz :

Le samedi 21 novembre 2009, à 14:18 +0100, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

On 11/20/2009 04:55 PM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le vendredi 20 novembre 2009, à 13:01 +0100, Andrea Florio a écrit :

That's exactly what I'm saying, and you seem to miss my point. The desktop user I'm thinking of would just drop openSUSE if the graphical interface stops working. The people you're thinking of are a different target audience.

But there's been forum threads where this has happened to new users, used to windows, and they have posted for help. They'd likely be ppl in your "just drop" category, but have then thanked forum for quick turn round on their issue, with it resolved. It'd be wrong to use "focus on typical end user" to penalise those who aren't. If openSUSE did that, then lots of us WOULD drop the distro! Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/24 Rajko M. :

On Monday 23 November 2009 09:46:38 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

Vincent just told that there is no typical users, or types of users, that openSUSE has focus on, so applied solutions in some situations are not good for anyone. It will be good to have some focus, to at least desktop user and server admin, like it is with kernel.

No I actually said : "But there's been forum threads where this has happened to new users, used to windows, and they have posted for help. They'd likely be ppl in your "just drop" category, but have then thanked forum for quick turn round on their issue, with it resolved. It'd be wrong to use "focus on typical end user" to penalise those who aren't. If openSUSE did that, then lots of us WOULD drop the distro!" Have focus on "typical" users, even though I agree with Vincent; but if you DO this thing, there's a huge danger of being patronising, so I think it's a mistake to use this focus as an excuse to make things unecessarily difficult for ppl in your non-typical category. Please be more careful with your quoting in future. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 20 Nov 2009 12:02:31 Sid Boyce wrote:

On 20/11/09 09:00, Sankar P wrote:

...

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Vahis wrote:

...

Sankar P wrote:

...

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Vahis wrote:

...

Michael Meeks wrote:

...

Well - lets hope the "one yast2-web version to rule them all" comes soon, and we can drop the ncurses package manager at the same time as qt and gtk.

What on Earth are you talking about? Dropping ncurses yast?

Please say it's a typo or something. Maybe a brain fart?

<snip>

...

If you want something less resource intensive and doesn't like GUI, use zypper.

So you think YaST is only for software management?

...

imho, "brain-fart" is too harsh a word to use in this discussion.

And commandline interface to YaST over ssh without GUI, neither in client nor server is something very important.

YaST makes openSUSE unique as such, ncurses yast even more.

It's about remote administration in general, not just clickety software management.

Don't say something should be dropped if you don't know what it is. -- Vahis

I am surprised that still there exists networks with a need for remote admin, but none of the client machines not being able to run a GUI browser. Understand that I (or anyone) didn't demand a removal of yast-ncurses and filed a FATE request for it. It is just a personal opinion on the yast front end future as I perceive it.

However, my opinion on usage of "brain-fart" as harsh/needless still holds.

Surprised? What good would it be if just one client does but it's not the one you are minterested in? What if X is broken? The thinking seems to be heading up a one-way street to evolving a human being with 3 fingers on the right hand or the left depending on dexterity. Sorry Sir, the GUI doesn't work on your box/my mouse is broken, no can fix the problem. I've done remote maintenance with cable modems either end and the GUI never was going to be fast enough for practical use. I don't expect my 80+ year old newbie (to computers) relative to use the command line on his Linux box. C'mon! how many missing brain cells does it take for you relatively younger ones to become lazy and GUI bound? Regards Sid.

Hi Sid. Yes there are some to say the least strange ideas doing the rounds at the moment shutting down ssh doing away with ncurses yast but almost forcing raid and lvm on people ho humm. Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 12:35 up 12 days 22:01, 4 users, load average: 0.08, 0.14, 0.10

2009/11/20 Sankar P :

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Vahis wrote:

...

Sankar P wrote:

I am surprised that still there exists networks with a need for remote admin, but none of the client machines not being able to run a GUI browser.

Web interfaces have poor security track record. You going to force ppl to run "secure" servers? Frankly the web server part of YaST configuration is a likely candidate for removal on a security conscious admins hit list. Amazingly enough branch offices would often be remotely administered, and many keen Linux-ers will think nothing of logging in from work say to their home machine server to keep an eye on things, or initiate downloads etc. ncurses(3) is nice and light relative to X GUIs, doesn't need a web server, cross proxies, web caches, it can be run over simple serial line, ssh tunnel, at console. Remove YaST ncurses and more and more ppl will just hand hack files, and turn off the distro configuration tools. Is that what you really want? Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/20 Sankar P :

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Vahis wrote:

...

Michael Meeks wrote:

My 2 cents: Both the GTK and Qt interface have some usability problems. The 1-click install workflow has too many 1-clicks as well. ;-)

Exactly! Why can't we include certificates in a noarch package for the documented common repositaries like OBS & Packman so that user's aren't trained to accept certificates willy-nilly? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 02:19:57PM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 11/20/2009 08:16 AM, Sankar P wrote:

...

I am sure none of the thick clients will be dropped until the web-interface matures and is fully functional. so Don't Panic. But I see no reason why we should carry on with these thick clients on a longer run. Web interface should be the default way to go as the system can be managed even from a Windows machine. If you want something less resource intensive and doesn't like GUI, use zypper.

Yes, I panick. A lot. The thought of the ncurses interface dissapearing gives me panick. You say "use zypper". Again, no. You can not configure a machine with zypper, to mention one reason.

I think Michael just wanted to distract everyone from yast2 gtk. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/21/2009 07:07 PM, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

2009/11/21 Marcus Meissner <>:

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I think Michael just wanted to distract everyone from yast2 gtk.

Right but it has kind of back fired, YaST ncurses seems to have support, whilst GNOME YaST hasn't had much praise.

Not much. Not even from me, a gnome user :-} An interface is that, an interface. I don't see why the gtk or qt versions have to be that different. It is, or should be, paint a window here, a message there, a dialog over there... both gtk and qt should allow the same things. Being so different is a nightmare both for maintainers and helpdesks (devs and people doing user support). The purpose of having both gtk and kde interfaces, to me, is just not needing to have the "other" set of libraries. I mean, not needing kde libs when you use gnome in order to be able to run yast, and having a more integrated look. I wouldn't care if it were neither gtk or qt, but X only. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2-ex-factory "Emerald" GM) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksIT7MACgkQU92UU+smfQWrTwCfSBralgFSYqONrFwUg+KoRZPS 3LsAn02en1xKe650f7Oi+mrjOufESoTv =VUF3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 19/11/09 12:13, Michael Meeks wrote:

Well - lets hope the "one yast2-web version to rule them all" comes soon, and we can drop the ncurses package manager at the same time as qt and gtk.

Hope this suggestion is not serious.. .

In terms of concrete filed bugs vs. yast2-gtk I have seen very few over the years.

That's probably because people don't bother to fill bugs on an horrible confusing interface and go for something sane instead. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 19 Nov 2009 15:13:46 Michael Meeks wrote:

Hi Martin,

Well - lets hope the "one yast2-web version to rule them all" comes soon, and we can drop the ncurses package manager at the same time as qt and gtk.

Not on your flippin nellie Good idea can the web version keep the ncurses and QT versions Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 17:26 up 12 days 2:52, 3 users, load average: 0.53, 0.71, 0.66

On Thursday 19 November 2009 13:48:56 Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett wrote:

On Thursday 19 November 2009 12:18:02 David C. Rankin wrote:

...

On my gnome install I have a really weird yast sw management module. My guess is that it is just to gnome one, but I want to confirm. So do the normal and gnome yast software management apps really have that different of a UI? If so, can I make the gnome one back into the one I'm used to?

Yes. Some years ago the Desktop team pushed for this user interface in addition to the gtk native UI plugin.

I don't think the effort was worth it. Personally, I don't find the gnome version of the software management module easier.

On the gtk backend side. While this effort was started before Qt 4.x, it could had been solved by the nice Qt 4.x gtk integration plus the qgtk theme + some improvements here and there in a much cheaper way.

This is how the Qt package selector looks in gtk with those pieces: http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/2158/yast2pkgselectorqgtk1.png

A normal module that looks like this in gtk: http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/592/yast2ntpclientgtk.png

Would look like this: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3586/yast3timezoneqgtk.png

The additional effort would have been those fancy blue headers and the button icons.

Seconded, QGtkStyle could allow us to focus our resources on really improving one YaST GUI so that it improves and fits into both desktops rather than having two that get minimal developer love between versions. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 13:41 +0100, Will Stephenson wrote:

Seconded, QGtkStyle could allow us to focus our resources on really improving one YaST GUI so that it improves and fits into both desktops rather than having two that get minimal developer love between versions.

This seems unlikely to match the goals of those working on yast2-gtk, first of good quality Gnome integration, and secondly of a better yast user experience: so far, there is a certain amount of innovation there - improved sizing, layout and rendering of eg. 'frame' widgets in a more HIG compliant fashion, more icon goodness, the S/W manager etc. So, your suggested approach seems unlikely to fly; would you really even entertain the converse - a gtk+ yast2 with some theming hacks on KDE ? Regards, Michael. -- michael.meeks@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 20 November 2009 16:35:17 Michael Meeks wrote:

On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 13:41 +0100, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

Seconded, QGtkStyle could allow us to focus our resources on really improving one YaST GUI so that it improves and fits into both desktops rather than having two that get minimal developer love between versions.

This seems unlikely to match the goals of those working on yast2-gtk,

In what way?

first of good quality Gnome integration,

Does the integration go beyond Gnome HIG compliance, icons and native widgets?

and secondly of a better yast user experience: so far, there is a certain amount of innovation there - improved sizing, layout and rendering of eg. 'frame' widgets in a more HIG compliant fashion, more icon goodness, the S/W manager etc.

This innovation I would like to share; on the one hand the Gtk+ sw_single makes a conscious attempt to improve usability, on the other, its way of working provokes a yuck response. I'd apply this urge to improve matters to Qt sw_single to achieve your stated goals and improve usability for both.

So, your suggested approach seems unlikely to fly;

That hasn't been demonstrated, has it?

would you really even entertain the converse - a gtk+ yast2 with some theming hacks on KDE ?

While it would be possible to achieve functionality and usability goals in either toolkit, the Qt UI is far better able to 'pass' as native gtk+ app, because it actually uses gtk+ to paint its UI when using QGtkStyle, whereas a gtk+ app can only mimic Qt's look and feel. It's like Tom Cruise's Mission Impossible synthetic skin disguises vs. the stick-on moustache approach of 60s spy flicks. So no, it wouldn't be worth it. And I know you have a soft spot for C++ ;). Best regards Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/21 Carlos E. R. :

...

While it would be possible to achieve functionality and usability goals in either toolkit, the Qt UI is far better able to 'pass' as native gtk+ app, because it actually uses gtk+ to paint its UI when using QGtkStyle, whereas a gtk+ app can only mimic Qt's look and feel.  It's like Tom Cruise's Mission Impossible synthetic skin disguises vs. the stick-on moustache approach of 60s spy flicks.  So no, it wouldn't be worth it.  And I know you have a soft spot for C++ ;).

I don't understand why both interfaces have to be so different. To me the ideal would be an engine with different display modules (gtk, qt, ncurses, web) with all a similar display and usage.

Me to, though having a couple variants allows change without disrupting everyone at once, there's an automatic fall back. Making one core engine, which supported all the interfaces above, would make it much harder to change, as you'ld have to update all the client display & interaction modules to at same time. That said, in recent "Who runs GNOME?" thread on forum, programs like K3b were claimed by some GNOME-ites as native applications. We don't only have 256MiB RAM these days so the client library over-head is less critical. One example firefox used to be unacceptably fat and sluggish to me on a KDE system, whereas now it's viable as the default browser. So I think Will has a point, that the Qt based programs are likely to be able to fool many end users. If there's GNOME/KDE/XFCE interoperability issues, isn't that something to refer to freedesktop.org? Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 02:17:28PM +0000, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

If there's GNOME/KDE/XFCE interoperability issues, isn't that something to refer to freedesktop.org?

Why stop there. There are others, like Windowmaker and IceWM. Unfortunatly what I see is that many things are done either the KDE way, the GNOME way or no way at all. But I am not even going to push this, or try to go to the right place. I understand that it is much easier to say "That is not my problem, please go to XYZ and ask there." In the end what happens is that only those who are the most stubborn will succeed. Unfortunatly the most stubborn people will seldom have the general overview and interest in mind even if they genuely believe they do. Oh well, the issues of working with people, I guess. houghi -- Let's not be too tough on our own ignorance. It's the thing that makes America great. If America weren't incomparably ignorant, how could we have tolerated the last eight years? -- Frank Zappa, in 1988 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 08:33:35AM +0100, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

Am Sun 22 Nov 2009 10:00:00 AM CET schrieb houghi :

...

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 02:17:28PM +0000, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

...

If there's GNOME/KDE/XFCE interoperability issues, isn't that something to refer to freedesktop.org?

Why stop there. There are others, like Windowmaker and IceWM.

Unfortunatly what I see is that many things are done either the KDE way, the GNOME way or no way at all. But I am not even going to push this, or try to go to the right place.

The majority of all computer users just does not care, which desktop is running. They want to start Firefox, Emacs, OpenOffice--and do their work. And hear musik or organize photos, etc.

The majority of computer users are using Windows. As we are using Linux, I do not think that a simple count is sufficient to motivate things. Another example would be people who made sites only for IE, because the majority used IE anyway.

Those who want to run a dedicated windowmanager such as WW or IceWM will probably know, how to customize the menu system according to their need or to set a lovely background image.

There is simply no need to offer a special WW or IcsWM desktop, as long as two other desktops are available.

It is not about offering. It is about thinking outside the KDE/GNOME box. It is also not about custiomization of the menu. That already works. I am talking about things that only work for KDE or GNOME. Instead of making a tool for the GUI, a tool is made for KDE and a tool is made for GNOME. I have two issues with that: 1) It takes twice as many people to do it 2) It leaves out everyuthing else Firefox, Emacs and OOo are great examples of how it SHOULD be. Konqueror, Kate and Koffice are how they NOT should be. There are different examples that wast time in my point of view. A KDE and a GNOME YaST instead of a GUI YaST that is for all to see. I asume the reason is that it looks nicer. So if what you are saying is true: people are only interested in running programs, then why are there two different GUI versions? And please understand this is just an example and a bad one as it is an exampkle. There are more things where programs are made twice or even three times. Once for KDE, once for GNOME and once for everybody else. It feels like a devide and cconquor sort of thing. Three times as many developers means three times as many packages to maintain. So it is understandable that things wil drop out. I believe that if you think upfront that things are to be used in a GUI and not in KDE/GNOME you already take a HUGEstep in the right direction. That way people can make their own choice if they want to use KDE/GNOME or whatever. houghi -- First we thought the PC was a calculator. Then we found out how to turn numbers into letters with ASCII and we thought it was a typewriter. Then we discovered graphics, and we thought it was television. With the World Wide Web, we've realized it's a brochure. -- Douglas Adams. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org