[opensuse-factory] HAL/DeviceKit in 11.3?
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 11 Januar 2010 schrieb Will Stephenson:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Let them work on it, we will have HAL in 11.3 Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 22:35, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 11 Januar 2010 schrieb Will Stephenson:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Let them work on it, we will have HAL in 11.3
Aaaah...these words are reminiscent of what could have come from Puccini's "Madama Butterfly"...Such music to the ears..... BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2010-01-11 at 12:35 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 11 Januar 2010 schrieb Will Stephenson:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Let them work on it, we will have HAL in 11.3
Why would we have HAL on 11.3 by default if most of the applications installed by default will not depend of it at the time 11.3 goes out ? Without HAL 11.3 will boot faster. Luis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 11 Januar 2010 schrieb Luis Medinas:
On Mon, 2010-01-11 at 12:35 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 11 Januar 2010 schrieb Will Stephenson:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Let them work on it, we will have HAL in 11.3
Why would we have HAL on 11.3 by default if most of the applications installed by default will not depend of it at the time 11.3 goes out ? Without HAL 11.3 will boot faster.
_If_ most of the applications installed by default. Try removing hal on factory. My 11.2 installation has 26 packages that disallow this. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2010-01-11 at 16:52 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 11 Januar 2010 schrieb Luis Medinas:
On Mon, 2010-01-11 at 12:35 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 11 Januar 2010 schrieb Will Stephenson:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Let them work on it, we will have HAL in 11.3
Why would we have HAL on 11.3 by default if most of the applications installed by default will not depend of it at the time 11.3 goes out ? Without HAL 11.3 will boot faster.
_If_ most of the applications installed by default. Try removing hal on factory. My 11.2 installation has 26 packages that disallow this.
The whole GNOME stack will be ready for 2.30, recent Xorg also uses udev if there's only 1 or 2 applications using it (from gnome-vfs) it could be used from dbus instead of using an initscript. Luis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 22:14, Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Will
The obvious questions are: Why is HAL being removed? What is replacing it? Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so? A simplistic statement as above tells noone about anything but rather only leads to confusion, speculation and FUD. BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 08:39, Basil Chupin wrote:
Why is HAL being removed?
Future Development of "hal" has been stopped.
What is replacing it?
udev-extras (merge between DeviceKit and udev)
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so?
Due to Common sense. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2010-01-11 at 08:46 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 11/01/10 08:39, Basil Chupin wrote:
Why is HAL being removed?
Future Development of "hal" has been stopped.
Right, there is no future release planned. The project is dead and the functionality replaced by a bunch of other projects.
What is replacing it?
udev-extras (merge between DeviceKit and udev)
There is no udev-extras. It was a temporary solution and no such package exists anymore. The hotplug event distribution is handled by the standard udev daemon and libudev. Individual subsystem-services like udisks, upower (formerly Devicekit-*), NetworkManager, PulseAudio, ..., connect over libudev to kernel device events and handle the domain-specific problems. Thanks, Kay -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 23:10, Kay Sievers wrote:
On Mon, 2010-01-11 at 08:46 -0300, Cristian RodrÃguez wrote:
On 11/01/10 08:39, Basil Chupin wrote:
Why is HAL being removed?
Future Development of "hal" has been stopped.
Right, there is no future release planned. The project is dead and the functionality replaced by a bunch of other projects.
What is replacing it?
udev-extras (merge between DeviceKit and udev)
There is no udev-extras. It was a temporary solution and no such package exists anymore. The hotplug event distribution is handled by the standard udev daemon and libudev.
Individual subsystem-services like udisks, upower (formerly Devicekit-*), NetworkManager, PulseAudio, ..., connect over libudev to kernel device events and handle the domain-specific problems.
Oh no, no! Not yet another "you-don't-know-what-I-know" situation! :'( Please, people, get the story right so that Karsten doesn't accuse you of FUD and whatever else :-( .
Thanks, Kay
Pretty please, BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 22:46, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 11/01/10 08:39, Basil Chupin wrote:
Why is HAL being removed?
Future Development of "hal" has been stopped.
What is replacing it?
udev-extras (merge between DeviceKit and udev)
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so?
Due to Common sense.
Thank you for the response. BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
måndag 11 januari 2010 12.39.05 skrev Basil Chupin:
On 11/01/10 22:14, Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Will
The obvious questions are:
Why is HAL being removed?
What is replacing it?
"HAL is in maintenance mode - no new features are added. All future development focuses on Software/DeviceKit-disks, Software/DeviceKit-power, NetworkManager, PulseAudio, udev, ... " http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/hal
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so?
A simplistic statement as above tells noone about anything but rather only leads to confusion, speculation and FUD.
BC -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 22:47, Per Osbäck wrote:
måndag 11 januari 2010 12.39.05 skrev Basil Chupin:
On 11/01/10 22:14, Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Will
The obvious questions are:
Why is HAL being removed?
What is replacing it?
"HAL is in maintenance mode - no new features are added. All future development focuses on Software/DeviceKit-disks, Software/DeviceKit-power, NetworkManager, PulseAudio, udev, ... " http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/hal
Thanks for your response. Picture is becoming clearer..... BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 11. Januar 2010 12:39:05 schrieb Basil Chupin:
On 11/01/10 22:14, Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Will
The obvious questions are:
They are not obvious, it is a technical question targeted at people who already know the awnser to your questions.
Why is HAL being removed?
What is replacing it? Check the web... a good starting point is the project page http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/hal
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so? As coolo pointed out openSUSE sticks to hal for the time beeing, currently this is the opposite of any trend.
A simplistic statement as above tells noone about anything but rather only leads to confusion, speculation and FUD. Well good thing you keep this list clean of FUD and confusion
Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 22:48, Karsten König wrote:
Am Montag, 11. Januar 2010 12:39:05 schrieb Basil Chupin:
On 11/01/10 22:14, Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Will
The obvious questions are:
They are not obvious,
But of course...."not obvious".
it is a technical question targeted at people who already know the awnser to your questions.
OK, so people not "in the know" should butt out and not ask questions. OK, fine.
Why is HAL being removed?
What is replacing it?
Check the web... a good starting point is the project page http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/hal
Oh, as an ordinary pleb and a humble user of openSUSE I just happened to miss the need to religiously read the project page about "HAL". So sorry.
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so?
As coolo pointed out openSUSE sticks to hal for the time beeing, currently this is the opposite of any trend.
And I applaud(ed) his response!
A simplistic statement as above tells noone about anything but rather only leads to confusion, speculation and FUD.
Well good thing you keep this list clean of FUD and confusion
Thank you. I always try to keep FUD and other confusion out of mail lists when talking about the subject at hand.
Karsten
BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Basil Chupin wrote:
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so?
Being a trendsetter does not mean to be leading _everywhere_. That simply does not scale in terms of focus, resources, etc. The question rather is: where is it most valuable to invest, to innovate, to lead for openSUSE to be successful? Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 11/01/10 12:47, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Basil Chupin wrote:
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so?
Being a trendsetter does not mean to be leading _everywhere_. That simply does not scale in terms of focus, resources, etc. The question rather is: where is it most valuable to invest, to innovate, to lead for openSUSE to be successful?
Gerald What did we do before HAL and what will we do after HAL? Change happens - borrowing from physics, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction- Q.E.D. Some changes have been disruptive and painful at inception only to become mainstream, stable and a blessing, citing major shifts to ELF and glibc6 as 2 early instances. There are things that were once core to Linux as a whole that are a distant memory for us who have been around almost from the beginning. I trust you guys to do the right thing - most of the time and as Linus once told a gathering of suits asking about a roadmap "Linux is evolution, not intelligent design", long may it be so. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
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On 11/01/10 23:47, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Basil Chupin wrote:
Why is openSUSE following others when it is supposed to be the trendsetter - or so many of us think so?
Being a trendsetter does not mean to be leading _everywhere_.
To begin with, one has to be first considered a "trendsetter" and the management has to consider the organisation it manages to either be or desire to be a "trendsetter". Does the powers-which-are-controlling openSUSE consider themselves to be "trendsetters"? "Being a trendsetter does not mean to be leading _everywhere_. " Of course not. But there must be goal, a direction, a plan, an aim for an organisation.
That simply does not scale in terms of focus, resources, etc. The question rather is: where is it most valuable to invest, to innovate, to lead for openSUSE to be successful?
OK, accepted. What is Novell aiming at with openSUSE - and consuming resources? One of the 'mandatory' questions I asked when interviewing potential employees was, "Where do you expect to be in your career in 5 years time?". So.....what is the "scale in terms of focus, resources, etc." to which you are referring above to achieve what openSUSE will be in 5 years time? :-) BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Basil Chupin wrote:
What is Novell aiming at with openSUSE - and consuming resources?
Oh, that is easy, and the answer is the same wearing my novell.com and my opensuse.org hats:
So.....what is the "scale in terms of focus, resources, etc." to which you are referring above to achieve what openSUSE will be in 5 years time? :-)
The community Linux distribution with the largest number of users and contributors, in the minds of everyone talking Linux. Make that 5.5 years, though. ;-) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 21. januar 2010 22:35:19 skrev Gerald Pfeifer:
On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Basil Chupin wrote:
What is Novell aiming at with openSUSE - and consuming resources?
Oh, that is easy, and the answer is the same wearing my novell.com
and my opensuse.org hats:
So.....what is the "scale in terms of focus, resources, etc." to which you are referring above to achieve what openSUSE will be in 5 years time? :-)
The community Linux distribution with the largest number of users and contributors, in the minds of everyone talking Linux.
Make that 5.5 years, though. ;-)
Is Ubuntu considered a "community linux distribution" in this context? Just wondering how much work we need to do ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Both HAL and devicekit seem top be a major problem in relation with CD/DVD/BD writing. If there is a plan to change, I would recommend to require to first develop a working solution for the well known problems with CD/DVD/BD writing. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 11 January 2010 12:14:58 Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Are there any openSUSE specific packages that use hal? For example does YaST or our installation depend on hal? In that case we should evaluate moving these packages away from hal ourselves - and I agree that for those packages where we're not upstream and which do not change in time for the 11.3 release, we'll ship hal to have them working, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 05:57:45PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Monday 11 January 2010 12:14:58 Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Are there any openSUSE specific packages that use hal? For example does YaST or our installation depend on hal? In that case we should evaluate moving these packages away from hal ourselves - and I agree that for those packages where we're not upstream and which do not change in time for the 11.3 release, we'll ship hal to have them working,
YaST uses hal to temporarily switch automounting off. ciao Arvin -- Arvin Schnell, <aschnell@suse.de> Senior Software Engineer, Research & Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-01-13 at 18:04 +0100, Arvin Schnell wrote:
On Monday 11 January 2010 12:14:58 Will Stephenson wrote:
When are we planning to remove HAL from the distribution? Apparently other distributions are already working on this for their next releases, and if we are planning the same, I'd like to know about it well in advance so the implications for applications using HAL are clear.
Are there any openSUSE specific packages that use hal? For example does YaST or our installation depend on hal? In that case we should evaluate moving these packages away from hal ourselves - and I agree that for those
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 05:57:45PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote: packages
where we're not upstream and which do not change in time for the 11.3 release, we'll ship hal to have them working,
YaST uses hal to temporarily switch automounting off.
At least GNOME does not use HAL anymore to handle auto-mounting, so this needs fixing anyway, I guess. And hwinfo still uses HAL, as far as I know. Thanks, Kay -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-01-13 at 20:33 +0100, Kay Sievers wrote:
At least GNOME does not use HAL anymore to handle auto-mounting, so this needs fixing anyway, I guess.
And hwinfo still uses HAL, as far as I know.
I think the most important thing atm is Xorg afaik it doesn't use HAL anymore on git master. Not sure about OpenOffice.org and applications that depend of gnome-vfs (which uses HAL). Btw... check https://features.opensuse.org/308762 where we can track some problems with HAL removal. Cheers Luis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Il 13/01/2010 20:33, Kay Sievers ha scritto:
At least GNOME does not use HAL anymore to handle auto-mounting, so this needs fixing anyway, I guess.
And hwinfo still uses HAL, as far as I know.
Thanks, Kay
pcmanfm (LXDE file manager) (this is on factory) actually USE hal, but pcmanfm2, actually in development that SHOULD be released before 11.3 will use it no more.. Andrea - -- - ------------------------------------------ Andrea Florio QSI International School of Brindisi Sys Admin CISCO CCNA Certified openSUSE-Education Administrator openSUSE Official Member (anubisg1) Email: andrea@opensuse.org Packman Packaging Team Email: andrea@links2linux.de Web: http://packman.links2linux.org/ Cell: +39-328-7365667 - ------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktOJhcACgkQyCZT87TFPuixdgCfe/hHJdXIPssMQ9HSnlB+JA+4 odYAn0UUX/oENOvq5//jSNUQIaXqVcx+ =Pv6M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (15)
-
Andrea Florio -
Andreas Jaeger -
Arvin Schnell -
Basil Chupin -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Joerg.Schilling＠fokus.fraunhofer.de -
Karsten König -
Kay Sievers -
Luis Medinas -
Martin Schlander -
Per Osbäck -
Sid Boyce -
Stephan Kulow -
Will Stephenson