Hi all,
This came up on the linux-kernel mailing list in a side thread, and I have since had a few people ask me about this on IRC, so I'd like to just consolidate all of the questions here into one thread.
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
This is not to say that I am no longer maintaining Tumbleweed, thanks to the magic of obs, I am able to keep it up to date just fine by using the obs command line tools from any Linux distro. In fact, most of all of the updates in the past 6 months have been made from a server running Gentoo[1] :)
But what this does mean is while I keep checking to see if I made any _major_ mistakes with it, by keeping a virtual machine up to date, and a spare laptop working with it, I am much less likely to notice any problems that occur when running the distro.
So, what's my future plans with it? I don't know. I can keep on keeping it up to date as-is, which seems to work as I haven't had any complaints in the past 3-4 months, as no one seems to have noticed...
Ideally, Tumbleweed will die with the use of Factory in its place. Factory is a great goal, and one that I really want to see happen, as it fits into my working model (constantly updating stable distro), but from what I have been told, it's just not quite there yet.
thanks,
greg k-h
* Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-16-14 17:01]:
This came up on the linux-kernel mailing list in a side thread, and I have since had a few people ask me about this on IRC, so I'd like to just consolidate all of the questions here into one thread.
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
This is not to say that I am no longer maintaining Tumbleweed, thanks to the magic of obs, I am able to keep it up to date just fine by using the obs command line tools from any Linux distro. In fact, most of all of the updates in the past 6 months have been made from a server running Gentoo[1] :)
But what this does mean is while I keep checking to see if I made any _major_ mistakes with it, by keeping a virtual machine up to date, and a spare laptop working with it, I am much less likely to notice any problems that occur when running the distro.
So, what's my future plans with it? I don't know. I can keep on keeping it up to date as-is, which seems to work as I haven't had any complaints in the past 3-4 months, as no one seems to have noticed...
Ideally, Tumbleweed will die with the use of Factory in its place. Factory is a great goal, and one that I really want to see happen, as it fits into my working model (constantly updating stable distro), but from what I have been told, it's just not quite there yet.
Thank-you, your efforts are much appreciated. I have used Tw on a production machine since, iirc, 12.2 or earlier and have it on three other test machines and have experienced *very* few problems. And none that matter in the last 6-8 months. And I certainly stretch the envelope!
I plan on switching to Factory when it is deemed *ready*. I don't really understand the present Factory model :^(.
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 05:29:34 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-16-14 17:01]:
I plan on switching to Factory when it is deemed *ready*. I don't
really
understand the present Factory model :^(.
Uhm I am using Factory since a while now and I believe that is ready. The current model is quite simple, I think.
In the previous model Factory was the place where the integration part happens. When the release manager added a new package into factory, this were deployed as soon as it compiles properly in Factory itself. There were no check that the package works well in any deployed machine.
-> PR to Devel -> PR to Factory -> Directly to the user
The current model, that is working since end of February? is more robust. There are three mode steps involved.
1) If the package related with the PR to Factory is 'an important one' (is in a list that is named 'ring'), this will put in a new project (staging project). This package needs to compile with the rest of packages that are there in the s.p. and also with Factory itself
2) When complies, a new ISO is generated and feed into openQA. This is and small version of Factory but with new news packages that are allocated in the s.p. If openQA says that is ok, all the packages can go to the real Factory. We call this pre-integration tests
3) Te current Factory, together with all the new integrated packages go again into openQA, in a FactoryToTest ISO image. openQA runs all the tests in these ISOs, And if (and only if) openQA says that this FTT is green, the user will receive the packages.
So the new model is like:
-> PR to Devel -> PR to Factory -> [Staging Project] -> [Pre-Integration Tests] -> Integration into Factory -> [Post-Integration Tests] -> Directly to the user
Of course there are mode details, but basically this was it.
Thanks, Alberto Planas
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Hi Alberto, thanks for the nice write-up. I didn't know all the details. Would you mind to put it on the wiki?
Bye Christoph
Am 17.07.2014 10:45, schrieb Alberto Planas Dominguez:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 05:29:34 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-16-14 17:01]:
I plan on switching to Factory when it is deemed *ready*. I don't
really
understand the present Factory model :^(.
Uhm I am using Factory since a while now and I believe that is ready. The current model is quite simple, I think.
In the previous model Factory was the place where the integration part happens. When the release manager added a new package into factory, this were deployed as soon as it compiles properly in Factory itself. There were no check that the package works well in any deployed machine.
-> PR to Devel -> PR to Factory -> Directly to the user
The current model, that is working since end of February? is more robust. There are three mode steps involved.
- If the package related with the PR to Factory is 'an important
one' (is in a list that is named 'ring'), this will put in a new project (staging project). This package needs to compile with the rest of packages that are there in the s.p. and also with Factory itself
- When complies, a new ISO is generated and feed into openQA.
This is and small version of Factory but with new news packages that are allocated in the s.p. If openQA says that is ok, all the packages can go to the real Factory. We call this pre-integration tests
- Te current Factory, together with all the new integrated
packages go again into openQA, in a FactoryToTest ISO image. openQA runs all the tests in these ISOs, And if (and only if) openQA says that this FTT is green, the user will receive the packages.
So the new model is like:
-> PR to Devel -> PR to Factory -> [Staging Project] -> [Pre-Integration Tests] -> Integration into Factory -> [Post-Integration Tests] -> Directly to the user
Of course there are mode details, but basically this was it.
Thanks, Alberto Planas
Hey,
On 17.07.2014 11:41, Christoph Grüninger wrote:
thanks for the nice write-up. I didn't know all the details. Would you mind to put it on the wiki?
It's already there: Wiki -> Distribution -> Factory -> Learn how factory is developed
Henne
* Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 04:47]:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 05:29:34 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-16-14 17:01]:
I plan on switching to Factory when it is deemed *ready*. I don't
really
understand the present Factory model :^(.
Uhm I am using Factory since a while now and I believe that is ready. The current model is quite simple, I think.
[...]
So the new model is like:
-> PR to Devel -> PR to Factory -> [Staging Project] -> [Pre-Integration Tests] -> Integration into Factory -> [Post-Integration Tests] -> Directly to the user
Of course there are mode details, but basically this was it.
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to factory?
tks,
On 07/17/2014 05:21 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 04:47]:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 05:29:34 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-16-14 17:01]:
I plan on switching to Factory when it is deemed *ready*. I don't
really
understand the present Factory model :^(.
Uhm I am using Factory since a while now and I believe that is ready. The current model is quite simple, I think.
[...]
So the new model is like:
-> PR to Devel -> PR to Factory -> [Staging Project] -> [Pre-Integration Tests] -> Integration into Factory -> [Post-Integration Tests] -> Directly to the user
Of course there are mode details, but basically this was it.
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to factory?
It's explained in the Factory wiki portal. https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Factory
Here, to be precise https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_installation#Upgrade
Cheers.
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
tks,
* Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 11:26]:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
Is moving from Tw to Factory as simple as changing to above repos and doing a "zypper dup"? ie: like dup'ing to the next distro release...
tks,
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:08:19AM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 11:26]:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
Is moving from Tw to Factory as simple as changing to above repos and doing a "zypper dup"? ie: like dup'ing to the next distro release...
It should be, try it and see.
greg k-h
* Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-18-14 17:53]:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:08:19AM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 11:26]:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
Is moving from Tw to Factory as simple as changing to above repos and doing a "zypper dup"? ie: like dup'ing to the next distro release...
It should be, try it and see.
I have a remote test box that I have done just so. It is currently download packages.
I will report results.
Noticed: 2 Problems: Problem: yast2-branding-openSUSE-3.1.0-1.2.noarch requires yast2-theme-openSUSE-any, but this requirement cannot be provided
I choose: Solution 2: deinstallation of yast2-branding-openSUSE-3.0.0-2.1.2.noarch
Problem: systemd-210-13.1.x86_64 conflicts with sysvinit provided by sysvinit-2.88+-94.2.x86_64 I choose: Solution 2: deinstallation of sysvinit-2.88+-89.1.2.x86_64
[...]
1555 packages to upgrade, 341 to downgrade, 164 new, 17 to reinstall, 28 to remove, 328 to change vendor, 3 to change arch.
Overall download size: 1.39 GiB. After the operation, additional 448.7 MiB will be used.
This volume will take some time.
* Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org [07-18-14 18:22]:
- Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-18-14 17:53]:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:08:19AM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 11:26]:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
Is moving from Tw to Factory as simple as changing to above repos and doing a "zypper dup"? ie: like dup'ing to the next distro release...
It should be, try it and see.
I have a remote test box that I have done just so. It is currently download packages.
I will report results.
Noticed: 2 Problems: Problem: yast2-branding-openSUSE-3.1.0-1.2.noarch requires yast2-theme-openSUSE-any, but this requirement cannot be provided
I choose:Solution 2: deinstallation of yast2-branding-openSUSE-3.0.0-2.1.2.noarch
Problem: systemd-210-13.1.x86_64 conflicts with sysvinit provided by sysvinit-2.88+-94.2.x86_64
I choose:Solution 2: deinstallation of sysvinit-2.88+-89.1.2.x86_64
[...]
1555 packages to upgrade, 341 to downgrade, 164 new, 17 to reinstall, 28 to remove, 328 to change vendor, 3 to change arch.
Overall download size: 1.39 GiB. After the operation, additional 448.7 MiB will be used.
This volume will take some time.
And it did take some time but is finished.
Only thing out-of-the-ordinary that I noticed was after completing the download, the box appeared to hang about 1/3 thru the install/update. I had to go to the remote machine and reboot by hand.
Box came back up with new kernel and no noticable hickups. I did another zypper ref; zypper -v dup. It appeared to collect the remainder of the first dup and completed successfully.
Tw apparently had quite a few *newer* packages than Factory, but the end result appears successful and usable.
I will upgrade another machine, probably a laptop, before trying my production machine.
Is there anything particular I should try on the upgraded box?
rsyslog is still running and output is on vt-10 system appears to dislike my ps2->usb keyboard/mouse adapter. Had to plug-in direct.
tks,
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
Only thing out-of-the-ordinary that I noticed was after completing the download, the box appeared to hang about 1/3 thru the install/update. I had to go to the remote machine and reboot by hand.
Did you use:
zypper dup --download "in-advance"
If not, you may want to in the future.
It's documented as an option in the normal system update process:
http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:System_upgrade#3._Update_system_to_the_latest_pac...
Greg
-- Greg Freemyer
* Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com [07-19-14 08:05]:
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
Only thing out-of-the-ordinary that I noticed was after completing the download, the box appeared to hang about 1/3 thru the install/update. I had to go to the remote machine and reboot by hand.
Did you use:
zypper dup --download "in-advance"
If not, you may want to in the future.
It's documented as an option in the normal system update process:
http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:System_upgrade#3._Update_system_to_the_latest_pac...
No, I did not, but it appeared that all files were already downloaded prior to installing and the "hang" came later.
I have seen the option but it seems that my systems *do* download in advance, but I will use that parameter when I do the next system.
tks,
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El 2014-07-19 a las 08:13 -0400, Patrick Shanahan escribió:
I have seen the option but it seems that my systems *do* download in advance, but I will use that parameter when I do the next system.
/etc/zypp/zypp.conf:
commit.downloadMode = DownloadInAdvance
- -- Cheers Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On 19/07/14 00:08, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 11:26]:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
Is moving from Tw to Factory as simple as changing to above repos and doing a "zypper dup"? ie: like dup'ing to the next distro release...
tks,
That's what the wiki states - and the wiki never lies dontcha know.
BC
On 07/19/2014 07:37 AM, Basil Chupin pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On 19/07/14 00:08, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 11:26]:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
Is moving from Tw to Factory as simple as changing to above repos and doing a "zypper dup"? ie: like dup'ing to the next distro release...
tks,
That's what the wiki states - and the wiki never lies dontcha know.
BC
If it's on the internet it has to be true. :-)
On 19/07/14 22:59, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 07/19/2014 07:37 AM, Basil Chupin pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On 19/07/14 00:08, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de [07-17-14 11:26]:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:21:46 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
So what are the basic repos to be enabled to ?? upgrade/switch to
factory?
repo-debug: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/debug
repo-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss
repo-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss
repo-src-non-oss: http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-non-oss
repo-src-oss : http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/src-oss
Is in the wiki also.
Is moving from Tw to Factory as simple as changing to above repos and doing a "zypper dup"? ie: like dup'ing to the next distro release...
tks,
That's what the wiki states - and the wiki never lies dontcha know.
BC
If it's on the internet it has to be true. :-)
Yep, you've got it in one!
But what is more important is that it is an <FX: puts on very serious face> *openSUSE* w-i-k-i!
BC
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Content-ID: alpine.LSU.2.11.1407200427270.32106@minas-tirith.valinor
El 2014-07-19 a las 23:14 +1000, Basil Chupin escribió:
But what is more important is that it is an <FX: puts on very serious face> *openSUSE* w-i-k-i!
Changes on the openSUSE wiki have to be accepted by someone with permissions to accept changes. So changes are very slow to happen.
- -- Cheers Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 10:45:46 +0200 Alberto Planas Dominguez aplanas@suse.de wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 05:29:34 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Greg KH gregkh@linux.com [07-16-14 17:01]:
I plan on switching to Factory when it is deemed *ready*. I don't
really
understand the present Factory model :^(.
Uhm I am using Factory since a while now and I believe that is ready. The current model is quite simple, I think.
Not my experience, I'm afraid. On one of my machines, installing a factory 13.2 iso screws up the display. What is more annoying is that it's a fault that appeared in 12.4 and was fixed by 13.0.
There are other bugs that make 13.2 unreliable on my other two machines.
In all cases, I've installed from a 13.2 iso. I haven't tried updating a 13.1 installation via factory so perhaps I'll give that a go when I can find a spare partition on one of my machines.
Am 17.07.2014 23:18, schrieb Graham P Davis:
Not my experience, I'm afraid. On one of my machines, installing a factory 13.2 iso screws up the display. What is more annoying is that it's a fault that appeared in 12.4 and was fixed by 13.0.
There are other bugs that make 13.2 unreliable on my other two machines.
What are the bugzilla ids?
Greetings, Stephan
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
But what this does mean is while I keep checking to see if I made any _major_ mistakes with it, by keeping a virtual machine up to date, and a spare laptop working with it, I am much less likely to notice any problems that occur when running the distro.
From my side it means, I still maintain and use Kernel:stable, which is
being merged into tumbleweed regularly.
What you cannot expect are more KDE updates in Tumbleweed from my side. I might be fixing potential upcoming errors, but it will happen rather seldomly.
Ideally, Tumbleweed will die with the use of Factory in its place.
Thank you for doing all the work!
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:48AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
That's good to hear, I'm guessing it is "stable enough" for you?
If so, maybe I should just tell everyone to move to Factory now instead?
But what this does mean is while I keep checking to see if I made any _major_ mistakes with it, by keeping a virtual machine up to date, and a spare laptop working with it, I am much less likely to notice any problems that occur when running the distro.
From my side it means, I still maintain and use Kernel:stable, which is being merged into tumbleweed regularly.
What you cannot expect are more KDE updates in Tumbleweed from my side. I might be fixing potential upcoming errors, but it will happen rather seldomly.
Thanks for your previous help with Tumbleweed, and especially the kde updates, they were much appreciated.
thanks,
greg k-h
On 07/17/2014 04:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:48AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
That's good to hear, I'm guessing it is "stable enough" for you?
If so, maybe I should just tell everyone to move to Factory now instead?
But what this does mean is while I keep checking to see if I made any _major_ mistakes with it, by keeping a virtual machine up to date, and a spare laptop working with it, I am much less likely to notice any problems that occur when running the distro.
From my side it means, I still maintain and use Kernel:stable, which is being merged into tumbleweed regularly.
What you cannot expect are more KDE updates in Tumbleweed from my side. I might be fixing potential upcoming errors, but it will happen rather seldomly.
Thanks for your previous help with Tumbleweed, and especially the kde updates, they were much appreciated.
thanks,
greg k-h
We should only stick with Tumbleweed until Factory is stable enough so that we have a stable version of openSUSE 13.2 working in VirtualBox.
Thank you Greg for all of your hard work on the kernel and Tumbleweed.
On 07/17/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:48AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
That's good to hear, I'm guessing it is "stable enough" for you?
If so, maybe I should just tell everyone to move to Factory now instead?
Keep in mind that the new Factory was never intended to replace Tumbleweed. Both rolling distributions acomplish different goals. Tumbleweed provides rolling updates of selected packages (~10% of the packages in Factory) on top of the most recent openSUSE released version. Tumbleweed therefore always has openSUSE releases as base. Factory on the other hand is a full rolling distribution where all packages, even core ones are continuously updated and rebuilt.
Cheers.
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 07:19:09AM +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:
On 07/17/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:48AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
That's good to hear, I'm guessing it is "stable enough" for you?
If so, maybe I should just tell everyone to move to Factory now instead?
Keep in mind that the new Factory was never intended to replace Tumbleweed. Both rolling distributions acomplish different goals. Tumbleweed provides rolling updates of selected packages (~10% of the packages in Factory) on top of the most recent openSUSE released version.
ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions...
:)
Also, the longer between "releases", the harder it is to maintain Tumbleweed, it's getting much too long these days.
thanks,
greg k-h
On 07/18/2014 08:33 AM, Greg KH wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 07:19:09AM +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:
On 07/17/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:48AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
That's good to hear, I'm guessing it is "stable enough" for you?
If so, maybe I should just tell everyone to move to Factory now instead?
Keep in mind that the new Factory was never intended to replace Tumbleweed. Both rolling distributions acomplish different goals. Tumbleweed provides rolling updates of selected packages (~10% of the packages in Factory) on top of the most recent openSUSE released version.
ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions...
:)
Let me clarify, before we have people going mad in media, that openSUSE 13.2 will be released in November according to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap
:)
Also, the longer between "releases", the harder it is to maintain Tumbleweed, it's getting much too long these days.
thanks,
greg k-h
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El 2014-07-18 a las 09:03 +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa escribió:
On 07/18/2014 08:33 AM, Greg KH wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 07:19:09AM +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:
ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions...
:)
Let me clarify, before we have people going mad in media, that openSUSE 13.2 will be released in November according to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap
:)
And will there be 13.3, 14.1, 14.2, etc?
Because if there will not, then I have to strongly consider distro hopping. :-/
So please clarify.
- -- Cheers Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
* Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org [07-18-14 08:45]:
El 2014-07-18 a las 09:03 +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa escribió:
On 07/18/2014 08:33 AM, Greg KH wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 07:19:09AM +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:
ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions...
:)
Let me clarify, before we have people going mad in media, that openSUSE 13.2 will be released in November according to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap
:)
And will there be 13.3, 14.1, 14.2, etc?
That *is* what he is indicating.
Because if there will not, then I have to strongly consider distro hopping. :-/
no
So please clarify.
Factory is *still* a special place but is becoming a feasible rolling/latest/up2date platform, aiui :^)
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El 2014-07-18 a las 08:49 -0400, Patrick Shanahan escribió:
- Carlos E. R. <> [07-18-14 08:45]:
El 2014-07-18 a las 09:03 +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa escribió:
On 07/18/2014 08:33 AM, Greg KH wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 07:19:09AM +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:
ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions...
:)
Let me clarify, before we have people going mad in media, that openSUSE 13.2 will be released in November according to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap
:)
And will there be 13.3, 14.1, 14.2, etc?
That *is* what he is indicating.
No, he only indicates that there will be a 13.2. And after it?
Greg says that there will not be.
So it is not clear at all.
Because if there will not, then I have to strongly consider distro hopping. :-/
no
If there will not be stable releases anymore, I /have/ to find another distro. I do not want to use a rolling or factory one. I can't.
So please clarify.
Factory is *still* a special place but is becoming a feasible rolling/latest/up2date platform, aiui :^)
I accept that, and I will use factory for *testing*, as always, just not for work.
- -- Cheers Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On Friday, July 18, 2014 03:09:36 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
Greg says that there will not be.
Where he says this?!? : )
Maybe I misread something but this thread is about Tumbleweed.
As I understand Greg suggest no more Tumbleweed for openSUSE >= 13.2, because the role of Tumbleweed can be covered by Factory.
Please, we need to avoid so much noise.
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El 2014-07-18 a las 15:15 +0200, Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 03:09:36 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
Greg says that there will not be.
Where he says this?!? : )
Here. This very thread, yesterday, Thu, 17 Jul 2014 23:33:09 -0700:
"ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions..."
Please, we need to avoid so much noise.
That's why I'm trying to provoke a reaction here, because a clear clarification is needed ASAP, to stop rumours going further.
- -- Cheers Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On 18 July 2014 15:03, Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org wrote:
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El 2014-07-18 a las 15:15 +0200, Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 03:09:36 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
Greg says that there will not be.
Where he says this?!? : )
Here. This very thread, yesterday, Thu, 17 Jul 2014 23:33:09 -0700:
"ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions..."
Please, we need to avoid so much noise.
That's why I'm trying to provoke a reaction here, because a clear clarification is needed ASAP, to stop rumours going further.
If the community so desires and is willing to contribute then *THERE WILL BE REGULAR RELEASES OF openSUSE!!!*
Is that clear enough for you, Carlos?
In case anyone missed it, *THERE WILL BE REGULAR RELEASES OF openSUSE!!!*
Seriously though, this bikeshedding really does have to stop. This discussion around releases has been had goodness knows how many times, and this apparent desire by people to dig up an old story and try and spin it in a different way is so damaging it's no longer amusing.
If you have a question about releases, listen very closely to what Coolo says; he is the release manager for openSUSE, that effectively (please forgive me) makes him the all knowing oracle of truth and light. If he says there will be a release then that's all you need, no need to go on about it.
Regards, Andy
-- Cheers Carlos E. R.
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El 2014-07-18 a las 16:16 +0100, Andrew Wafaa escribió:
On 18 July 2014 15:03, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
That's why I'm trying to provoke a reaction here, because a clear clarification is needed ASAP, to stop rumours going further.
If the community so desires and is willing to contribute then *THERE WILL BE REGULAR RELEASES OF openSUSE!!!*
Is that clear enough for you, Carlos?
In case anyone missed it, *THERE WILL BE REGULAR RELEASES OF openSUSE!!!*
Thanks.
Seriously though, this bikeshedding really does have to stop. This discussion around releases has been had goodness knows how many times, and this apparent desire by people to dig up an old story and try and spin it in a different way is so damaging it's no longer amusing.
I'm not amused. I'm seriously scared. :-|
I did not start the rumours, I simply heard them, I got scared, and requested a clear statement, for my tranquility, and so that I can tell others that the rumours are false. The rumours started because people er... high up, said unclear things. You people have be more careful how you spell things.
If you have a question about releases, listen very closely to what Coolo says; he is the release manager for openSUSE, that effectively (please forgive me) makes him the all knowing oracle of truth and light. If he says there will be a release then that's all you need, no need to go on about it.
I absolutely heed what Coolo says. But I have not seen his word on the matter, yet. Maybe it is in the mail queue.
- -- Cheers Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On 07/18/2014 03:09 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-18 a las 08:49 -0400, Patrick Shanahan escribió:
- Carlos E. R. <> [07-18-14 08:45]:
El 2014-07-18 a las 09:03 +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa escribió:
On 07/18/2014 08:33 AM, Greg KH wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 07:19:09AM +0200, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:
ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions...
:)
Let me clarify, before we have people going mad in media, that
openSUSE
13.2 will be released in November according to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap
:)
And will there be 13.3, 14.1, 14.2, etc?
That *is* what he is indicating.
No, he only indicates that there will be a 13.2. And after it?
Greg says that there will not be.
So it is not clear at all.
Then please, read the reply from Alberto Planas in the other thread. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2014-07/msg00147.html I fully agree with him (except I'm not so enthusiastic to say that Factory is "really stable", even when I use it as my only system with no hassle).
I simply didn't mention 13.3, 14.1, 14.2, 14.3, 15.1, 15.2, 15.3, 16.1, 16.2 and 16.3 because I don't like to assert what is going to happen one year in the future. I didn't want to imply that 13.2 is going to be the last release and there is no reason to think that.
On 18.07.2014 08:33, Greg KH wrote:
Keep in mind that the new Factory was never intended to replace Tumbleweed. Both rolling distributions acomplish different goals. Tumbleweed provides rolling updates of selected packages (~10% of the packages in Factory) on top of the most recent openSUSE released version.
ah, but if there aren't going to be any more openSUSE released versions...
:)
Also, the longer between "releases", the harder it is to maintain Tumbleweed, it's getting much too long these days.
I agree for many other reasons that the current release distance is too much.
But we also need to redefine what the openSUSE releases are - in relation to Factory. And while I don't doubt the existance of a use case for Tumblweed, the open question is if it's worth the effort (and I just can't answer it).
I wonder though in what form that redefining should happen. In all honesty: mailing list come to their limits for such things and the openSUSE conference did not bring enough stake holders.
Perhaps some dedicated video conference?
Greetings, Stephan
On 18 July 2014 09:28, Stephan Kulow coolo@suse.de wrote:
I wonder though in what form that redefining should happen. In all honesty: mailing list come to their limits for such things and the openSUSE conference did not bring enough stake holders.
Perhaps some dedicated video conference?
I like that idea, or as an alternative, a specific IRC meeting might be a viable way of getting it done. Either way, I agree a nice real-time interactive discussion could be a good way forward for this
- Richard
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:43:00AM +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
On 18 July 2014 09:28, Stephan Kulow coolo@suse.de wrote:
I wonder though in what form that redefining should happen. In all honesty: mailing list come to their limits for such things and the openSUSE conference did not bring enough stake holders.
Perhaps some dedicated video conference?
I like that idea, or as an alternative, a specific IRC meeting might be a viable way of getting it done. Either way, I agree a nice real-time interactive discussion could be a good way forward for this
Ok, either way, we need to have a well-defined set of things to be talking about and wishing to accomplish, otherwise it's not a useful meeting.
thanks,
greg "I hate meetings so much I took a job without any!" k-h
On 07/17/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:48AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
That's good to hear, I'm guessing it is "stable enough" for you?
If so, maybe I should just tell everyone to move to Factory now instead?
I wanted to test it for some time before spreading a word. And the answer is: NO, definitely not. Factory broke in several ways on the first rebuild I met.
thanks,
On 24.07.2014 13:02, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 07/17/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:48AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
Hi!
On 07/16/2014 10:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:
I no longer run openSUSE Tumbleweed on my main machines as it is not useful to me anymore.
Neither do I. I switched to the "new" factory.
That's good to hear, I'm guessing it is "stable enough" for you?
If so, maybe I should just tell everyone to move to Factory now instead?
I wanted to test it for some time before spreading a word. And the answer is: NO, definitely not. Factory broke in several ways on the first rebuild I met.
Note that the process works though. Of course we only cover what is tested and everyone should submit tests to avoid regressions.
E.g. we only update 13.1 by means of using yast and the zypper dup is running in text console.
Greetings, Stephan
Greg KH writes: […]
Ideally, Tumbleweed will die with the use of Factory in its place. Factory is a great goal, and one that I really want to see happen, as it fits into my working model (constantly updating stable distro), but from what I have been told, it's just not quite there yet.
Thanks for all the work you did (and still do) on Tumbleweed. Ideally, however, Tumbleweed should not die since it strikes a slightly different balance of what it means to be on a rolling distribution than Factory, by definition. That difference may be small, but it is important to me and I suspect some other Tubleweed users as well.
It seems that most of what Tumbleweed is today could be emulated by using Current plus a few select repos building on it. Some staples would be (for me anyway) KDE and LibreOffice. I'm not certain what the kernel part could be replaced with. Any guidance in what exactly gets integrated into Tubleweed would be appreciated. As said before, if that selection of repos can be clearly defined it would seem a good idea to provide a "service file" for zypper to make it more easily accessible.
Regards, Achim.
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 08:05:44PM +0200, Achim Gratz wrote:
Greg KH writes: […]
Ideally, Tumbleweed will die with the use of Factory in its place. Factory is a great goal, and one that I really want to see happen, as it fits into my working model (constantly updating stable distro), but from what I have been told, it's just not quite there yet.
Thanks for all the work you did (and still do) on Tumbleweed. Ideally, however, Tumbleweed should not die since it strikes a slightly different balance of what it means to be on a rolling distribution than Factory, by definition. That difference may be small, but it is important to me and I suspect some other Tubleweed users as well.
It might be "small" on your side, but it's a _huge_ change in my workload to be able to try to do something like this. And in the end, it would look almost exactly like Factory does today anyway (if you look close, sometimes Tumbleweed packages are _newer_ than Factory {shhh...})
So I'd push back and say, why doesn't the Factory model fit your use of Tumbleweed? It's the same thing, only more packages are updated :)
It seems that most of what Tumbleweed is today could be emulated by using Current plus a few select repos building on it. Some staples would be (for me anyway) KDE and LibreOffice.
i.e. the same thing as Factory :)
I'm not certain what the kernel part could be replaced with.
With what I pull from today, Kernel:Stable.
Any guidance in what exactly gets integrated into Tubleweed would be appreciated.
You can see the list of packages in Tumbleweed by doing:
osc ls openSUSE:Tumbleweed if you are curious. Right now, it's only 624 packages, a non-trivial size.
thanks,
greg k-h
Greg KH writes:
So I'd push back and say, why doesn't the Factory model fit your use of Tumbleweed? It's the same thing, only more packages are updated :)
Right. What and how it updates however means that it can (and smoetimes will) replace working with not-yet-working stuff and that's a no-no on my primary machine. I've tested Factory on an old spare for a while and it definitely isn't there yet.
You can see the list of packages in Tumbleweed by doing:
osc ls openSUSE:Tumbleweed if you are curious. Right now, it's only 624 packages, a non-trivial size.
OK, thanks.
Regards, Achim.
-
Achim Gratz -
Alberto Planas Dominguez -
Ancor Gonzalez Sosa -
Andrew Wafaa -
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Christoph Grüninger -
Graham P Davis -
Greg Freemyer -
Greg KH -
Greg KH -
Henne Vogelsang -
Jiri Slaby -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Patrick Shanahan -
Richard Brown -
Roman Bysh -
Stephan Kulow