Basil Chupin wrote:

Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3.

[pruned]

...

...

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0? Regards Sid.

I am more interested in when ext4 will coming online. (Some features of ext4 have been available since kernel 2.6.13, at least.)

Ciao.

I was afraid to ask the question, prepared to wait for the "Minutes". It's in the latest kernels and I guess it will take some time to confidence test it for openSUSE. I haven't seen any other distros promising ext4. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 23. Februar 2008 schrieb Per Jessen:

Besides, I doubt if ext4 will never make into openSUSE:

- lack of customer requests.

not yet. Look at the growth rate of needed diskspace in the last years.

- doesn't really meet any needs that cannot be handled by other   file systems in the distro

SCNR: AFAIR a manager of IBM said something like this: "Noone will ever need more than 8 kByte of Memory..."

- Novell QA is not testing ext4 nor are any of Novells partners.

Someone will do it if its time to. Maybe from other distros.

- If you run into a problem with ext4, there is no support available     from the openSUSE kernel maintainers.

same like above. regards, Jens --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

You missed the context of these counterstatements. ;-))

Hehe, thanks for pointing that out, Eberhard. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I am more interested in when ext4 will coming online. (Some features of ext4 have been available since kernel 2.6.13, at least.)

What is in ext4 that is so interesting?

AFAICS, the max filesystem size and the nanosecond timestamping are the only marginally interesting features.

Besides, I doubt if ext4 will never make into openSUSE:

- lack of customer requests.

- doesn't really meet any needs that cannot be handled by other  file systems in the distro

- Novell QA is not testing ext4 nor are any of Novells partners.

- If you run into a problem with ext4, there is no support available from the openSUSE kernel maintainers.

Oy! Where did you learn how to be sarcastic, eh? :-D Ciao. -- I was very heavily into pornography. Then my pornograph broke. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 12:53:41 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

JFS is maxed out at 32 Petabytes today - for my own professional needs, that's unlikely to ever become a real show-stopper :-)

The main difference is that ext4 will be supported and JFS not, and this in turn mainly because ext4 will have broad upstream support.

Whilst on the subject of filesystems, I'd much rather see Suns ZFS in openSUSE, but I've been told there's some sort of licensing issue?

Yepp :( Sun's license is incompatible with the GPL (which I think was done on purpose) the kernel uses. Philipp --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard (MQ) wrote:

Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3. On this 11.0 Alpha2 box I have /dev/sdb1 as / (JFS) 500G SATA /dev/sdb2 /boot (reiserfs) /dev/sda1 /ftp (ext3) 320G SATA Suddenly there was a system freeze that needed a hard reset and when booting, after the grub selection, a black screen appeared. I had to boot from 11.0 Alpha2 CD and run fsck. The ext3 partition was the one with the problem and it took ages to get through. The fsck for the reiserfs and JFS were all clean.

Last night on a box belonging to a relative on which I did a fresh 10.3 install to a new HD /dev/sda1 (160G PATA ext3), with the old 10.0 HD as /dev/sdb2 (80G PATA reiserfs), I inadvertently pulled the wrong plug and powered the box off. The ext3 drive drive took over an hour to fix, the reiserfs drive took minutes, complaining of 3 errors, quickly fixed with --fix-fixable.

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0? Regards Sid.

I have a development box running Alpha 2, used mainly for playing with DTV streaming. This is currently using (only) ext3 filesystems per defaults. It has had a few unexplained lockups similar to your description (maybe DTV problems rather than OSL?), but no problems with ext3 beyond the expected repairs, executed automatically and quickly.

I'm planning soon to try JFS or XFS for the giant file deletion features (useful with DTV) - when I get the new Hard Disc I've promised myself. I certainly support offering JFS as an option, I can't remember whether XFS is already offered? I have to say I dropped reiserfs some time back...

XFS is definitely there as an option, I considered it for a while, then thought that pre-partitioning and formatting the drive for JFS should be OK, but booting from JFS was the blocker. In keeping with the health warning on JFS, I didn't bother to file a bug report. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Sid Boyce writes:

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3. On this 11.0 Alpha2 box I have /dev/sdb1 as / (JFS) 500G SATA /dev/sdb2 /boot (reiserfs) /dev/sda1 /ftp (ext3) 320G SATA Suddenly there was a system freeze that needed a hard reset and when booting, after the grub selection, a black screen appeared. I had to boot from 11.0 Alpha2 CD and run fsck. The ext3 partition was the one with the problem and it took ages to get through. The fsck for the reiserfs and JFS were all clean.

Last night on a box belonging to a relative on which I did a fresh 10.3 install to a new HD /dev/sda1 (160G PATA ext3), with the old 10.0 HD as /dev/sdb2 (80G PATA reiserfs), I inadvertently pulled the wrong plug and powered the box off. The ext3 drive drive took over an hour to fix, the reiserfs drive took minutes, complaining of 3 errors, quickly fixed with --fix-fixable.

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0?

Isn't JFS available in 10.3 - just with a big warning that it's untested?

Andreas

I did read the warning in 10.3 xxx. I can't remember encountering JFS as an option during installs - I looked carefully back then. The process I used with 10.3 Alpha (I think) was to pre-partition the drive for JFS, but after the install I had mega trouble getting grub to boot the box from the JFS partition. I had to grab some of swap to make a reiserfs /boot partition and that's the setup that still exists. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/2/22, Andreas Jaeger :

Sid Boyce writes:

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3. On this 11.0 Alpha2 box I have /dev/sdb1 as / (JFS) 500G SATA /dev/sdb2 /boot (reiserfs) /dev/sda1 /ftp (ext3) 320G SATA Suddenly there was a system freeze that needed a hard reset and when booting, after the grub selection, a black screen appeared. I had to boot from 11.0 Alpha2 CD and run fsck. The ext3 partition was the one with the problem and it took ages to get through. The fsck for the reiserfs and JFS were all clean.

Last night on a box belonging to a relative on which I did a fresh 10.3 install to a new HD /dev/sda1 (160G PATA ext3), with the old 10.0 HD as /dev/sdb2 (80G PATA reiserfs), I inadvertently pulled the wrong plug and powered the box off. The ext3 drive drive took over an hour to fix, the reiserfs drive took minutes, complaining of 3 errors, quickly fixed with --fix-fixable.

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0?

Isn't JFS available in 10.3 - just with a big warning that it's untested?

The new kernel for Opensuse 11 has support for ReiserFS4? What is about the support of ReiserFS4 as default file system in Opensuse 11? I have now in my system (workstation) ext3, and from time to time when it executes the automatic fsck (60 days), it takes about 40 minutes for a hard disk of 250 GB, and in many of this cases, I hate only 30 minutes to see the emails and go out. With ReiserFS3, I not hate those problems to wait for use the workstation 30 or 40 minutes, as with ext3 happens. Regards --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 02 March 2008, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Hi,

I love the solidity of ext3. If it does check (wasting your time), you have a far better chance to "survive" against the others.

Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Just installed 11.0alpha2 on the laptop here first thing was to get rid of that darn EXT3 P.I.T.A and switch to Reiser . It has to be said thou kde4 is going to have to take a back seat till i can get it to work and the looks of kde4 are well gnomeish are we sure the Gnome team have not taken over at KDE HQ and that strange thing in the top right hand corner of the screen is well WTF is if supposed to be . Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 02 March 2008, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

I am saying this because I still have not understand what you wanted to say within this thread...

Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ho hummmmmmmmmmmm ... -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/3/2, Eberhard Moenkeberg :

Hi,

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Juan Erbes wrote:

...

2008/2/22, Andreas Jaeger :

...

Sid Boyce writes:

...

...

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3. On this 11.0 Alpha2 box I have /dev/sdb1 as / (JFS) 500G SATA /dev/sdb2 /boot (reiserfs) /dev/sda1 /ftp (ext3) 320G SATA Suddenly there was a system freeze that needed a hard reset and when booting, after the grub selection, a black screen appeared. I had to boot from 11.0 Alpha2 CD and run fsck. The ext3 partition was the one with the problem and it took ages to get through. The fsck for the reiserfs and JFS were all clean.

Last night on a box belonging to a relative on which I did a fresh 10.3 install to a new HD /dev/sda1 (160G PATA ext3), with the old 10.0 HD as /dev/sdb2 (80G PATA reiserfs), I inadvertently pulled the wrong plug and powered the box off. The ext3 drive drive took over an hour to fix, the reiserfs drive took minutes, complaining of 3 errors, quickly fixed with --fix-fixable.

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0?

Isn't JFS available in 10.3 - just with a big warning that it's untested?

The new kernel for Opensuse 11 has support for ReiserFS4?

What is about the support of ReiserFS4 as default file system in Opensuse 11?

I have now in my system (workstation) ext3, and from time to time when it executes the automatic fsck (60 days), it takes about 40 minutes for a hard disk of 250 GB, and in many of this cases, I hate only 30 minutes to see the emails and go out. With ReiserFS3, I not hate those problems to wait for use the workstation 30 or 40 minutes, as with ext3 happens.

I love the solidity of ext3. If it does check (wasting your time), you have a far better chance to "survive" against the others.

Two years ago are some people using Reiser4 without problems, and with true better perfomance compared to ext3: http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/7/16/148 But they are some Linux kernel saboteurs: http://linuxhelp.150m.com/jews/saboteurs.htm A simple guide to include Reiser4: http://linuxhelp.150m.com/installs/compile-kernel.htm Regards --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/3/2, Eberhard Moenkeberg :

Hi,

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Juan Erbes wrote:

...

2008/3/2, Eberhard Moenkeberg :

...

...

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Juan Erbes wrote:

...

2008/2/22, Andreas Jaeger :

...

Sid Boyce writes:

...

...

...

...

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3. On this 11.0 Alpha2 box I have /dev/sdb1 as / (JFS) 500G SATA /dev/sdb2 /boot (reiserfs) /dev/sda1 /ftp (ext3) 320G SATA Suddenly there was a system freeze that needed a hard reset and when booting, after the grub selection, a black screen appeared. I had to boot from 11.0 Alpha2 CD and run fsck. The ext3 partition was the one with the problem and it took ages to get through. The fsck for the reiserfs and JFS were all clean.

Last night on a box belonging to a relative on which I did a fresh 10.3 install to a new HD /dev/sda1 (160G PATA ext3), with the old 10.0 HD as /dev/sdb2 (80G PATA reiserfs), I inadvertently pulled the wrong plug and powered the box off. The ext3 drive drive took over an hour to fix, the reiserfs drive took minutes, complaining of 3 errors, quickly fixed with --fix-fixable.

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0?

Isn't JFS available in 10.3 - just with a big warning that it's untested?

The new kernel for Opensuse 11 has support for ReiserFS4?

What is about the support of ReiserFS4 as default file system in Opensuse 11?

I have now in my system (workstation) ext3, and from time to time when it executes the automatic fsck (60 days), it takes about 40 minutes for a hard disk of 250 GB, and in many of this cases, I hate only 30 minutes to see the emails and go out. With ReiserFS3, I not hate those problems to wait for use the workstation 30 or 40 minutes, as with ext3 happens.

I love the solidity of ext3. If it does check (wasting your time), you have a far better chance to "survive" against the others.

Two years ago are some people using Reiser4 without problems, and with true better perfomance compared to ext3: http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/7/16/148

But they are some Linux kernel saboteurs: http://linuxhelp.150m.com/jews/saboteurs.htm

A simple guide to include Reiser4: http://linuxhelp.150m.com/installs/compile-kernel.htm

We need support to be able to sleep at night.

Well, with this argument, do'nt include new features, do'nt build a new kernel version and do'nt build a new Opensuse version. Simply fix the bugs. Regards --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Hi,

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Juan Erbes wrote:

...

2008/2/22, Andreas Jaeger :

...

Sid Boyce writes:

...

...

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3. On this 11.0 Alpha2 box I have /dev/sdb1 as / (JFS) 500G SATA /dev/sdb2 /boot (reiserfs) /dev/sda1 /ftp (ext3) 320G SATA Suddenly there was a system freeze that needed a hard reset and when booting, after the grub selection, a black screen appeared. I had to boot from 11.0 Alpha2 CD and run fsck. The ext3 partition was the one with the problem and it took ages to get through. The fsck for the reiserfs and JFS were all clean.

Last night on a box belonging to a relative on which I did a fresh 10.3 install to a new HD /dev/sda1 (160G PATA ext3), with the old 10.0 HD as /dev/sdb2 (80G PATA reiserfs), I inadvertently pulled the wrong plug and powered the box off. The ext3 drive drive took over an hour to fix, the reiserfs drive took minutes, complaining of 3 errors, quickly fixed with --fix-fixable.

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0?

Isn't JFS available in 10.3 - just with a big warning that it's untested?

The new kernel for Opensuse 11 has support for ReiserFS4?

What is about the support of ReiserFS4 as default file system in Opensuse 11?

I have now in my system (workstation) ext3, and from time to time when it executes the automatic fsck (60 days), it takes about 40 minutes for a hard disk of 250 GB, and in many of this cases, I hate only 30 minutes to see the emails and go out. With ReiserFS3, I not hate those problems to wait for use the workstation 30 or 40 minutes, as with ext3 happens.

Only 30-40 minutes? Depends of course on the CPU speed and amount of memory. So typically terrabytes is a question of how long is a piece of string.

I love the solidity of ext3. If it does check (wasting your time), you have a far better chance to "survive" against the others.

Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Soooooo.... what you are saying here is that ext3 is broke and I should open bugs for 10.3 and 11.0 Alpha2. The 2 instances I related do not indicate solidity. Accidental power loss should only result in replaying the journal. May be in the PC world such things are acceptible, but I could see mayhem if I were depending on a laptop that had to do fsck.ext3 while carrying out maintenance on a mainframe or large SPARC server. I think, really I know for sure that Mr. Customer would seriously become bent out of shape. Luckily using SuSE/reiserfs I have had no such worry or problem over many years, bleeding edge everything and still rock solid. Reminds me of a laugh British Airways shared with me about Sun's pitch on Concurrent Maintenance which they were touting as a big plus. Scenario put to Sun, box has a hardware hit. Sun says, blacklist the failing hardware, reboot Solaris and they would change the failing bit without powering the system down, so the customer would suffer no downtime. BA says, "but I would suffer a loss of service whether or not you have to power the system down, my mainframes keep on running when they take hardware hits" -- Sun was stuck for an answer. The answer I suppose is down to the amount of grief you can tolerate. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/3/3, Basil Chupin :

It seems to me that just because a Linux OS gives a choice of different available filesystems an argument, errr... a heated discussion, must develop.

If we all were running an M$ system what choice of filesystems would we have?

NTFS or FAT. Suse Linux was from the first's supporters of the ReiserFS, but now that Reiser4 is mature enough, Opensuse do'nt support Reiser4. Regards --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/3/3, Philipp Thomas:

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 19:41:43 -0200, Juan Erbes wrote:

...

but now that Reiser4 is mature enough, Opensuse do'nt support Reiser4.

Define 'doesn't support'. We don't offer it in YaST2 during installation, but the kernel should support reiser4.

Yes, the kernel should support reiser4, but it do'nt. In the last official kernel of Opensuse 10.3 I made a "cat /lib/modules/2.6.22.17-0.1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko", and do'nt appear any reference to reiser4. I mean that the developers will not see any bug related to reiser4 in Bugzilla. Regards --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Hi,

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Juan Erbes wrote:

...

2008/2/22, Andreas Jaeger :

...

Sid Boyce writes:

[pruned]

...

Only 30-40 minutes? Depends of course on the CPU speed and amount of memory. So typically terrabytes is a question of how long is a piece of string.

...

I love the solidity of ext3. If it does check (wasting your time), you have a far better chance to "survive" against the others.

Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Soooooo.... what you are saying here is that ext3 is broke and I should open bugs for 10.3 and 11.0 Alpha2. The 2 instances I related do not indicate solidity. Accidental power loss should only result in replaying the journal. May be in the PC world such things are acceptible, but I could see mayhem if I were depending on a laptop that had to do fsck.ext3 while carrying out maintenance on a mainframe or large SPARC server. I think, really I know for sure that Mr. Customer would seriously become bent out of shape. Luckily using SuSE/reiserfs I have had no such worry or problem over many years, bleeding edge everything and still rock solid.

Reminds me of a laugh British Airways shared with me about Sun's pitch on Concurrent Maintenance which they were touting as a big plus. Scenario put to Sun, box has a hardware hit. Sun says, blacklist the failing hardware, reboot Solaris and they would change the failing bit without powering the system down, so the customer would suffer no downtime. BA says, "but I would suffer a loss of service whether or not you have to power the system down, my mainframes keep on running when they take hardware hits" -- Sun was stuck for an answer. The answer I suppose is down to the amount of grief you can tolerate. Regards Sid.

It seems to me that just because a Linux OS gives a choice of different available filesystems an argument, errr... a heated discussion, must develop.

I never try to get heated, just putting a point of view from another perspective.

If we all were running an M$ system what choice of filesystems would we have?

That is, amongst other reasons, why I removed Windows from my work laptop back in RedHat 6.2 days and never looked back.

In any case, Sid, how many times does one strike a power supply loss? Quite a few times each year, though I'm fortunate to have UPS's installed.

And why would one use a laptop to administer a mainframe or large SPARC server when the power supply in the laptop can go arse-up for no reason?

Ciao.

That's the way it's done, bringing up systems, patch and hardware maintenance, hardware/software installation and configuration. A mobile guy needs a laptop when he's supporting systems everywhere, travelling by car and by plane, a tech support guy needs a heck of a lot of manuals, patches and bulletins on his laptop for quick and easy access when away from the office. Many a time I have NFS mounted my laptop on a Solaris partition and transferred patches across. The laptop scenario is less of a bother where power is concerned, I have had laptops fail, pop the hard drive into another company supplied laptop and soon you have a fully working setup. What was most troublesome was a desktop that suddenly needed a very lengthy fsck.ext3 after an unexplained solid lockup and I could see the same happening with a laptop. So far this has not happened again. Reiserfs seemed (to me) to be more resilient. With a new box here, I am going to give XFS a try later tonight or tomorrow as I am looking for a fs that's is as robust as it can be, JFS looked the part, it had the largest HD and didn't cause the problems I saw with the smaller ext3 partitioned HD. If there are reasons why JFS will be dropped I can accept that. In all the years I've used Linux, ext3 has bitten me more painfully than either reiserfs which I used from SuSE 6.2 onwards and I still have on boxes here. My short excursion with JFS has also been positive. Guys were telling me way back to use ext3 in preference to reiserfs while the kernel mailing list was dealing with a wave of ext3 corruptions. All my reiserfs corruptions then were actually due to failing IDE ports on motherboards (x4). Before anyone suggests Electrostatic Damage, I taught ESD awarenes and I have at my disposal 3 large anti-static mats (about 1.5m x 1m each) properly grounded and I use calibrated Ground Gard wrist strap monitors. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

El Tuesday 04 March 2008, Carlos E. R. escribió:

The Tuesday 2008-03-04 at 00:50 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

Guys were telling me way back to use ext3 in preference to reiserfs while the kernel mailing list was dealing with a wave of ext3 corruptions. All my reiserfs corruptions then were actually due to failing IDE ports on motherboards (x4).

I had a reiserfs corruption caused by software.

So have I. And I've also had corruption on JFS partitions. No flame war intended 0:) Rafa -- "We cannot treat computers as Humans. Computers need love." rgriman@skype.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi :) El Tuesday 04 March 2008, Basil Chupin escribió:

Rafa Grimán wrote:

...

El Tuesday 04 March 2008, Carlos E. R. escribió:

...

The Tuesday 2008-03-04 at 00:50 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

Guys were telling me way back to use ext3 in preference to reiserfs while the kernel mailing list was dealing with a wave of ext3 corruptions. All my reiserfs corruptions then were actually due to failing IDE ports on motherboards (x4).

I had a reiserfs corruption caused by software.

So have I. And I've also had corruption on JFS partitions. No flame war intended 0:)

Rafa

So, what does all this mean? Does it mean that the filesystems available for Linux OSs - such as openSUSE - are no better than those used in M$?

I can't answer that. It's been 13 years since I last used MS-Windows. Maybe we've been using these filesystems when they weren't really production ready? Maybe we've been using them for what they were not meant? I ask this last question because I've been using ext3 for / and XFS for /home since they first came out. Never had a problem with any of them. Never had long fsck times with ext3 (my / is 10 GB). Maybe the problem is not only the filesystem, but the hardware it's running on: bad drives (aka cheap drives), bad connectors (I've suffered this a lot of times), bad controllers, old hardware (I've suffered this also), ... I can only talk about what I've suffered/experienced. I've had data loss with JFS and reiserfs on new (and not cheap) hardware. When I used ext3 and XFS on the same hardware ... no issues :) Of course, that is me. Others have had other problems.

(Earlier today I read about what is happening to Hans Reiser re his trial on the charge of allegedly murdering his wife. One thing which most affects this discussion about filesystems is that Namesys is still in business and is still developing v4 of reiserfs.)

Ciao.

Rafa -- "We cannot treat computers as Humans. Computers need love." rgriman@skype.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Tuesday 2008-03-04 at 20:38 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

...

...

Guys were telling me way back to use ext3 in preference to > > reiserfs while the kernel mailing list was dealing with a wave of > > ext3 corruptions. All my reiserfs corruptions then were actually > > due to failing IDE ports on motherboards (x4).

...

I had a reiserfs corruption caused by software.

So have I. And I've also had corruption on JFS partitions. No flame war intended 0:)

So, what does all this mean? Does it mean that the filesystems available for Linux OSs - such as openSUSE - are no better than those used in M$?

No.

It simply means that if somebody says there never was a corruption problem with 'X' or 'Y' filesystem, it is just because he didn't find it, but I'm sure somebody else did. I have had corruptions with reiserfs, ext3, and xfs - ie, with all I have used in linux. And of course, also with fat. Ntfs I have used very little.

No filesystem is completely and absolutely safe. That's my main point.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

That now seems to be the case judging by the fact that there are some who have been bitten by each and I suppose it's only natural we'll vote for the one that has worked flawlessly for us. In my case ext3 is the one that really did the dirty on me. The main difficulty with PC's is the lack of basic error analysis and monitoring - smart being the only exception I think, understandable at the price and it's often a drawn out affair finding out if hardware or software caused the problem. They usually go bump without warning. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Sid Boyce [03-04-08 21:35]:

...

That now seems to be the case judging by the fact that there are some who have been bitten by each and I suppose it's only natural we'll vote for the one that has worked flawlessly for us. In my case ext3 is the one that really did the dirty on me.

BUT, iirc, your problem was not an "error" but a delay incurred by a check ???

A system lockup out of the blue - no pun intended. JFS, the much larger partition survived intact.

...

The main difficulty with PC's is the lack of basic error analysis and monitoring - smart being the only exception I think, understandable at the price and it's often a drawn out affair finding out if hardware or software caused the problem. They usually go bump without warning.

As is with all man crafted items :^)

Real computers (read mainframes and $millions) don't do that, they leave software and hardware error logs, most times they warn you to fix the bug before it bites or they simply root around it - I'm trying hard to remember the last complete system crash, some way back in the 1990's. I think I shall start saving up the pennies to buy one, the z10 looks nice for a spot in the corner of a living room. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Sid Boyce wrote: [pruned]

That's the way it's done, bringing up systems, patch and hardware maintenance, hardware/software installation and configuration. A mobile guy needs a laptop when he's supporting systems everywhere, travelling by car and by plane, a tech support guy needs a heck of a lot of manuals, patches and bulletins on his laptop for quick and easy access when away from the office. Many a time I have NFS mounted my laptop on a Solaris partition and transferred patches across.

[pruned] OK, thanks, now I understand how it all works. Ciao. -- I was very heavily into pornography. Then my pornograph broke. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Juan Erbes wrote:

...

The new kernel for Opensuse 11 has support for ReiserFS4?

There are no plans to push for ReiserFS4 and certainly not before it is upstream in Linus' kernel.org tree.

...

What is about the support of ReiserFS4 as default file system in Opensuse 11?

The default file system for openSUSE 11.0 is going to be ext3.

...

I have now in my system (workstation) ext3, and from time to time when it executes the automatic fsck (60 days), it takes about 40 minutes for a hard disk of 250 GB, and in many of this cases, I hate only 30 minutes to see the emails and go out. With ReiserFS3, I not hate those problems to wait for use the workstation 30 or 40 minutes, as with ext3 happens.

Have you considered still using ReiserFS with openSUSE 10.3 and then 11.0? I don't see any reason that would not work.

Another alternative that I am deploying on my notebooks is a smaller ext3 root partition (7-10 GB) per distribution and one or more large XFS partitions for /home and data, and that's been serving me well.

Indeed, checking a 5 TB ext3 partition needs too much time and (not less important) too much ressources (CPU and RAM). If you cancel the fschk during boot and try to do it during "life" (after mounting read-only), you see that all your RAM gets eaten with "buffer" pages from the fsck, minussing the amount of "caching" for the applications. Maybe a programmed "not-caching" of those blocks which are used by e2fsck would help out of this pain, but it is not programmed. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Booting from xfs has had problems in the past, with no support in the install dvd; jfs perhaps similar problem, so better make the root as ext3.

We're using JVS everywhere - from small(ish) servers on plain 40GB IDE drives to JFS on RAID1 over SATA to JFS on LVM over 20 RAID5 arrays. (terabyte size). Mo problems of any kind.

/Per Jessen, Zürich

I thought it was a safe bet as IBM would no doubt be deploying it on z-Series, i-Series and x-Series . I must ask my erstwhile colleagues what's currently used on IBM mainframes and the PSI Open Mainframe which does z/OS, Linux and Windows. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Friday 2008-02-22 at 09:49 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Not wishing to reopen old flames and wounds, but in the last 2 days I have had problems with ext3. On this 11.0 Alpha2 box I have /dev/sdb1 as / (JFS) 500G SATA /dev/sdb2 /boot (reiserfs) /dev/sda1 /ftp (ext3) 320G SATA

Reiserfs for a small partition such as boot? make no sense. Typical is ext2 (not 3).

I had the space to waste and my back was up against the wall. Some of us have long and horrid memories of the time taken to do fsck.ext2 on a 20G HD once the mount count was exhausted, that's what made me switch to SuSE/reiserfs. One day I had a power glitch and the newly installed SuSE 6.2 test box was up in a jiffy while the ext2 box clunked it's way painfully through a check.

...

Suddenly there was a system freeze that needed a hard reset and when booting, after the grub selection, a black screen appeared. I had to boot from 11.0 Alpha2 CD and run fsck. The ext3 partition was the one with the problem and it took ages to get through. The fsck for the reiserfs and JFS were all clean.

Last night on a box belonging to a relative on which I did a fresh 10.3 install to a new HD /dev/sda1 (160G PATA ext3), with the old 10.0 HD as /dev/sdb2 (80G PATA reiserfs), I inadvertently pulled the wrong plug and powered the box off. The ext3 drive drive took over an hour to fix, the reiserfs drive took minutes, complaining of 3 errors, quickly fixed with --fix-fixable.

Well, that's the known advantage of reiserfs over ext3. Nothing strange there, large partitions take a large time to check, but reiserfs is very fast. Known thing. So?

The reason why I considered the move to JFS.

...

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0?

You can have ext3 for the root partition, then have a huge XFS partition for your home or data partitions. I understand it is more reliable.

Booting from xfs has had problems in the past, with no support in the install dvd; jfs perhaps similar problem, so better make the root as ext3.

I did consider XFS. I did ext3 on the relative's box and I'm regretting having done so after last night's experience - the 10.0 install was using reiserfs. Imagine if he suffers a power cut. Anyhow, I've rsync'd everything over to the reiserfs HD and I'll leave it powered down until I can get to do a backup update for him. One day my daughter asked me to call around, her box wasn't coming up, she had tried many times .... ext3 again.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Friday 2008-02-22 at 21:36 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

Reiserfs for a small partition such as boot? make no sense. Typical is ext2 (not 3).

I had the space to waste and my back was up against the wall. Some of us have long and horrid memories of the time taken to do fsck.ext2 on a 20G HD once the mount count was exhausted, that's what made me switch to SuSE/reiserfs. One day I had a power glitch and the newly installed SuSE 6.2 test box was up in a jiffy while the ext2 box clunked it's way painfully through a check.

Boot partition needs to be something like 20..100 Mb. Minimum for reiser is 100, a lot is "wasted" in the journal. Such a small partition recovers very fast even with no journal, as ext2, with the plust that the kernel supports it internally (no modules needed in initrd).

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I used 60G, no problem. the kernel supports reiserfs also, so that's no problem and ext2 has been a pain since day one, no better than when we had to use Minix partitions with bootlace and shoelace early on in Linux. I was also surprised at the number of times we had to fsck disks in Solaris a-la ext2. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2008-02-23 at 11:51 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

Boot partition needs to be something like 20..100 Mb. Minimum for reiser is 100, a lot is "wasted" in the journal. Such a small partition recovers very fast even with no journal, as ext2, with the plust that the kernel supports it internally (no modules needed in initrd).

I used 60G, no problem. the kernel supports reiserfs also, so that's no

60 Gigabytes of boot? For /boot? What for? The kernel and associated files are about 30 MEGA bytes. What on earth do you use the extra 60 GB for?

:-OO (very surprised)

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I don't miss it, it was just a solution to an immediate and pressing problem with booting from JFS and I stole it from swap. I have had solid lockups as recently as an hour ago (hardware I reckon) and JFS comes up smiling, whereas an inadvertent power down of the other box yesterday, 145G of ext3 caused a major headache. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2008-02-23 at 20:36 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

...

...

Boot partition needs to be something like 20..100 Mb. Minimum for reiser is 100, a lot is "wasted" in the journal. Such a small partition recovers very fast even with no journal, as ext2, with the plust that the kernel supports it internally (no modules needed in initrd).

I used 60G, no problem. the kernel supports reiserfs also, so that's no

60 Gigabytes of boot? For /boot? What for? The kernel and associated files are about 30 MEGA bytes. What on earth do you use the extra 60 GB for?

:-OO (very surprised)

I don't miss it, it was just a solution to an immediate and pressing problem with booting from JFS and I stole it from swap.

I'm sorry, but I would consider a waste having a partition filled to only 0.1% capacity.

Neither can I understand that you could stole 60 Gigabytes from a swap. You must have disks in the peta byte range!

Either that, or you are reporting the wrong units.

# df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/sdb1 401G 224G 178G 56% / udev 2.0G 180K 2.0G 1% /dev /dev/sdb2 56G 150M 56G 1% /boot /dev/sda1 211G 31G 170G 16% /ftp # free -g total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 3 3 0 0 0 0 -/+ buffers/cache: 3 0 Swap: 28 0 28 # o /etc/fstab /dev/disk/by-id/scsi-SATA_MAXTOR_STM35006_6QG0YKMR-part1 / jfs defaults 1 1 /dev/disk/by-id/scsi-SATA_MAXTOR_STM35006_6QG0YKMR-part2 /boot reiserfs defaults 0 0 /dev/disk/by-id/scsi-SATA_MAXTOR_STM35006_6QG0YKMR-part3 swap swap defaults 0 0 /dev/disk/by-id/scsi-SATA_SAMSUNG_SP2514NS08BJ1LP604794-part1 /ftp ext3 defaults 1 1 /dev/disk/by-id/scsi-SATA_SAMSUNG_SP2514NS08BJ1LP604794-part2 swap swap defaults 0 0 /dev/sdc2 is a swap partition not used currently. I can alter this any time of course, but when it was done, I had rsync'd a failing IDE drive (ext3) over to a new SATA HD (/dev/sdb1) JFS and it refused to boot, so I just grabbed some space from swap to see if it would boot from a reiserfs partition. I'm not likely to run short of space before I need to replace another failing HD.

...

I have had solid lockups as recently as an hour ago (hardware I reckon) and JFS comes up smiling, whereas an inadvertent power down of the other box yesterday, 145G of ext3 caused a major headache.

But you miss the point: a 100 MB partition checks in seconds, regardles of the filesystem you use. Even the old ext2.

And I'm not telling you to use a 145G part as ext3.

The point I was trying to make here is that I've had a problem with fsck.ext3 taking a very long time to repair a partition on a relative's box when it suffered an accidental power down. If when the box is handed back and it subsequently suffers the same in his hands, he'll probably be stuck until I can get over there to fsck it myself - just may be I could do it over the phone. As an insurance against ext3 corruption or HD failing, I've rsync'd the 145G ext3 stuff over to a 80G spare reiserfs drive which will be left powered down as backup. As a total novice 80+ year old who had never even used a keyboard before, he's been using openSUSE 10.0 a his only OS shortly after it went GM and it's never missed a beat with reiserfs. The guy depends heavily on the box for email, web browsing, digital camera work, burning CD's and DVD's, skype, IM, word processing and spreadsheets amongst other stuff and he has a daughter who has recently given up on using her XP laptop and uses her own login on the openSUSE box. His grand daughter also uses it to play games and surf. The XP laptop, well XP really has been the real problem, so some time later I expect we'll install openSUSE on that also for a quiet life. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Sunday 2008-02-24 at 08:47 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

Either that, or you are reporting the wrong units.

# df -h Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/sdb1 401G 224G 178G 56% / udev 2.0G 180K 2.0G 1% /dev /dev/sdb2 56G 150M 56G 1% /boot /dev/sda1 211G 31G 170G 16% /ftp

Uau. :-O

So, yes, you really waste 56 GB...

...

/dev/sdc2 is a swap partition not used currently. I can alter this any time of course, but when it was done, I had rsync'd a failing IDE drive (ext3) over to a new SATA HD (/dev/sdb1) JFS and it refused to boot, so I just grabbed some space from swap to see if it would boot from a reiserfs partition. I'm not likely to run short of space before I need to replace another failing HD.

Well, yes, some space, yes... but 100 MB is ample space. The rest you can put to use. Of course, you can symlink anything you like in there, no need to repartition.

...

...

...

I have had solid lockups as recently as an hour ago (hardware I reckon) > and JFS comes up smiling, whereas an inadvertent power down of the other > box yesterday, 145G of ext3 caused a major headache.

But you miss the point: a 100 MB partition checks in seconds, regardles of the filesystem you use. Even the old ext2.

And I'm not telling you to use a 145G part as ext3.

The point I was trying to make here is that I've had a problem with fsck.ext3 taking a very long time to repair a partition on a relative's box when it suffered an accidental power down.

That point has been understood messages ago :-)

It is a known issue.

The kernel people suffered it themselves, all their source store went down, and it took hours to fsck, I believe. The comment was that it have been faster to reformat and restore from backup.

Usually it is just a question of waiting calmy drinking your tea :-p

But, the other point is that a very small partition, of 100 MB, checks in seconds, allowing it to be of ext2 type, which is safer for a boot partition.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

That's the time when the PHB paces around muttering about giving MS a call and tea drinking the ultimate act causing insult. Power does fail in most shops and a painful recovery doesn't help. I thought journalling was supposed to fix that. One other reason why I'd trust IBM, their mainframe filesystems always survive power outages, so I would expect JFS to have that kind of resilience designed in and data corruptions considered a disaster situation. With regard to the statement that customers never asked for JFS, neither did they ask for reiserfs or ext3, they took what they were given. Agreed on the 100MB, I kept thinking in GB for the boot partition. The biggie GB partitions still cause grief whichever way you deal with them. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Sat, 2008-02-23 at 13:34 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2008-02-23 at 11:51 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

Boot partition needs to be something like 20..100 Mb. Minimum for reiser is 100, a lot is "wasted" in the journal. Such a small partition recovers very fast even with no journal, as ext2, with the plust that the kernel supports it internally (no modules needed in initrd). I used 60G, no problem. the kernel supports reiserfs also, so that's no

60 Gigabytes of boot? For /boot? What for? The kernel and associated files are about 30 MEGA bytes. What on earth do you use the extra 60 GB for?

:-OO (very surprised)

probably a typo, 60MB sounds more realistic ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Was done late at night after a long tussle with trying to get JFS to boot, so I must have reckoned 30GB instead of 30MB for the journal. Such things happen as it's common to think disks in GB these days. It's no problem to correct it if needed. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

(Sorry for being blunt, but we have a wide array of input from a large number of users and there is a reason why JFS is deprecated with current versions of SLES.)

How about being really blunt and telling us what that reason is? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka napsal(a):

Per Jessen napsal(a):

...

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

(Sorry for being blunt, but we have a wide array of input from a large number of users and there is a reason why JFS is deprecated with current versions of SLES.) How about being really blunt and telling us what that reason is?

I don't say that this is exactly the piece of information you are asking for, but it might help too :)

SUSE Linux Enterprise 10: File System Support FAQ http://www.novell.com/linux/filesystems/faq.html

SUSE Linux Enterprise has similar (the same) basis as openSUSE.

Additionally, this article might give even more info: File System Primer http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/File_System_Primer Bye Lukas

On Fri, 2008-02-22 at 21:09 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

When did the default openSUSE filesystem change to ext3? 10.0 ?

openSUSE 10.3 default to ext3 if I'm not mistaken. On the other hand SLED still default to reiserfs. I can't remember for 10.2 Hub --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka wrote:

I hoped that the FAQ could have helped: [faq cut] That's also why JFS is not our default file system.

I have absolutely no issue with that - I'm not really too interested in what openSUSE has as the _default_ filesystem - that is a question for openSUSE product management. My primary concern is for openSUSE to maintain (semi-)support of JFS. The key issue in this thread is what Gerald Pfeifer wrote: "there is a reason why JFS is deprecated with current versions of SLES." I would like Gerald to elaborate on that, especially since current versions of openSUSE have JFS support.

About Ext3 vs. ReiserFS vs. XFS vs. ... : Every year, there repeating discussions over and over again, discussing pros and cons, both externally and internally. Every single file system seems to be good for something else, it's not easy to pick one.

Completely agree. I happen to think the current choice of ext3 is fine, but just not suitable for my purposes. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

JFS is AFAIK not maintained actively anymore and we do not include it in any openSUSE internal tests or will consider any bug in JFS support critical.

The most recent release of jfsutils was about 6 months ago in August last year. The maintainer is Dave Kleikamp, who also works on the ext4 project.

There are better filesystems out there (ok, each is better then others in one benchmark ;)

Disregarding benchmarks, what is generally considered a better filesystem when the requirements are 1) terabyte size 2) 365x24 uptime, 3) LVM use and 4) millions of small files ? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Petr Cerny wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

There are better filesystems out there (ok, each is better then others in one benchmark ;)

Disregarding benchmarks, what is generally considered a better filesystem when the requirements are 1) terabyte size 2) 365x24 uptime, 3) LVM use and 4) millions of small files ?

I would go for XFS - but again, this is a matter of religion... ;)

Best regards Petr

I shall give that a try next time I do a new build, see how it squares off against ext3. I regard resilience ahead of performance as that's the one that can bite most painfully, but there is no reason not to have both. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 09:09:40PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Additionally, this article might give even more info:

File System Primer http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/File_System_Primer

FYI, that article is somewhat outdated -

"The Reiser File System is the default file system in SUSE Linux distributions."

When did the default openSUSE filesystem change to ext3? 10.0 ?

10.2, as google showed ... :) Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat 23 Feb 2008 06:07:00 NZDT +1300, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

http://www.novell.com/linux/filesystems/faq.html

Gives a SUSE history lesson but says little about file systems and absolutely nothing about jfs.

http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/File_System_Primer

More informative. Not a single word though what the trouble with jfs is though either, which we're all keen on knowing so we can choose the right one for a particular job. (This page would be a very useful document if it was mentioning the downsides of the various options too, which it doesn't really.) I'm distinctly unkeen on ext3 fsck times on boot and much keener on keeping reiser working well with SUSE until that ext3 problem is fixed. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner wrote:

I remember it is mostly a support issue and limiting the set of filesystems we truly and well can support for the customer.

Now that's an argument I can accept. A clean product management decision. Of course, I will still argue that JFS should be supported at installation time, but that's all I need. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, Per Jessen wrote:

How about being really blunt and telling us what that reason is?

And then I thought I was pretty blunt. ;-) - It's interesting to see that a few here favor JFS, but in terms of customer requests I do not recall a single one for JFS nor a single complaint when we deprecated JFS with SLES 10. - JFS doesn't really meet any needs that cannot be handled by other file systems in the distro (and the future belongs to clustered file systems anyway so that's where we are actually focusing). - Our QA is not testing JFS nor do any of our partners as far as I can tell, unlike the other file systems which regularily undergo massive testing. - If you run into a problem with ext3/ReiserFS/XFS these should be easily and quickly addressed by the openSUSE kernel maintainers; for JFS I wouldn't know that. To me as a user the first might not be that strong of an argument, though when it comes to data being mainstream is usually a good idea. The last two I find pretty convincing. :-) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, Per Jessen wrote:

...

How about being really blunt and telling us what that reason is?

And then I thought I was pretty blunt. ;-)

- It's interesting to see that a few here favor JFS, but in terms of customer requests I do not recall a single one for JFS nor a single complaint when we deprecated JFS with SLES 10.

- JFS doesn't really meet any needs that cannot be handled by other file systems in the distro (and the future belongs to clustered file systems anyway so that's where we are actually focusing).

- Our QA is not testing JFS nor do any of our partners as far as I can tell, unlike the other file systems which regularily undergo massive testing.

- If you run into a problem with ext3/ReiserFS/XFS these should be easily and quickly addressed by the openSUSE kernel maintainers; for JFS I wouldn't know that.

Gerald, none of those are reasons for deprecating JFS IMHO. You said "there is a reason why JFS is deprecated with current versions of SLES" - now instead of one strong argument, you list four very weak arguments: 1) Customer requests - I find it difficult to believe that every openSUSE decision to include/exclude <something> depends on customer requests. 2) Exactly the same goes for ext3, reiserfs and xfs. 3) Surely this is only because you've chosen not to support JFS. 4) That applies to many kinds of software that is included by openSUSE. Anyway, JFS has been back in openSUSE since 10.1 (I think it was) - you get an annoying pop-up window when you choose it, but I can live with that. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Per Jessen writes:

...

Gerald, none of those are reasons for deprecating JFS IMHO. You said "there is a reason why JFS is deprecated with current versions of SLES" - now instead of one strong argument, you list four very weak arguments:

1) Customer requests - I find it difficult to believe that every openSUSE decision to include/exclude <something> depends on customer requests.

Gerald made the argument for SLES. The only requests for JFS I have seen are from openSUSE users - and that's why we have added it back for openSUSE as an "unsupported" filesystem.

OK, true - I guess I tend to think mostly in terms of openSUSE.

...

2) Exactly the same goes for ext3, reiserfs and xfs.

3) Surely this is only because you've chosen not to support JFS.

Speaking of partners: They could have spoken up and ask for JFS - and then we would have asked them for testing.

Is that a hint at me/us? We'd be very happy to help with JFS testing, (which in fact we do anyway, though not in a really organized fashion).

...

4) That applies to many kinds of software that is included by openSUSE.

5) User base: I think you're the only one really using it;-) - or at least the most vocal one.

I can easily admit to the latter - I'm running a business and we're using almost exclusively JFS. A change away from JFS would require a lot of changes for us, which is why I keep hassling everyone about JFS. But when it comes to usage of filesystems - if we only look at openSUSE users, I suspect everyone is using either ext3 (current default) or reiserfs (previous default). Or do we have a lot of closet users of XFS? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Gerald, none of those are reasons for deprecating JFS IMHO. You said "there is a reason why JFS is deprecated with current versions of SLES" - now instead of one strong argument, you list four very weak arguments:

So the two line summary provided by Marcus is a "clean product management decision", but the background information that lead to this decision is weak? That's funny. :-)

Well, the thing is that you left the door open, whereas Marcus slammed it shut. I can't argue against a plain and unequivocal decision made by product management, whereas I can argue against a list of arguments :-)

However, ext3 is the primary file system used by many if not most other distributions and we surely wnat that level of compatibility.

That's a novel point - what compatibility are we talking about? If we're looking at new or relatively new users, they may be likely to switch from one distro to another, but as a distro-provider, do you really want to encourage that? Second, an experienced or professional user is - in my experience - unlikely to switch, so compatibility is not really required. However, what the _default_ file system should be is not really my concern.

ReiserFS has been the primary SUSE file system in the past so we need it for compatibility. And XFS is much more alive than JFS, we get a lot of requests for it, have quite some users (in openSUSE) and it is well supported by SGI.

What I'd like to understand is - why are you getting requests for XFS when it's already there? Also, I haven't seen a single person on e.g. the openSUSE lists ask for or complain about XFS support. So where is that wave coming from? If it's your SLES customers, I still don't understand it - they've got XFS, so why ask for it?

We have engineers on staff and/or tight partnerships who are closely familiar with ext3, ReiserFS, and XFS and thus can and readily do address issues with these three. This is not the case for JFS.

My experience when dealing with openSUSE kernel level support is that you're very selective with giving it to anyone. Note - I am absolutely _not_ complaining, I'm just making an observation. I've had at least two, maybe three issues in the past couple of years that have clearly required that level of expertise. Yet they took forever to get any attention, and when they were finally at the top of the queue, they got swept away with "ancient hardware or lack of documentation, we can't be bothered". As it happens I mostly agree, but don't wave your flag of "openSUSE kernel level support" when it's so difficult to come by anyway. In my opinion, Novell is mixing openSUSE and SLES a little too much. The level of support is obviously different - as it should be - but to omit support for <something> from openSUSE just because you are not prepared to offer the required level of support for SLES, that's not in the interest of the openSUSE community, IMHO. 0/Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-02-25 at 21:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

What I'd like to understand is - why are you getting requests for XFS when it's already there? Also, I haven't seen a single person on e.g. the openSUSE lists ask for or complain about XFS support. So where is that wave coming from?

No? I did have a complain, or problem, with XFS. The repair utitlity crashed when I tried to repair a certain partition, and it took nearly a year to solve. (The issue had been solved upstream, but the "xfsprogs" package was too old in the distro) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHxUYztTMYHG2NR9URAhflAJ4wTd4/9ITSVHqlPiucMj5H3YjLaACgiy/Q WpHsPZUItX5ra8VXoAdfVoo= =55ig -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 02 March 2008 02:33:09 pm Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

Obviously this is the easier to do the more knowledge we have among openSUSE contributors (which, on the kernel side, mainly boils down to Novell engineers, sadly).

:-D Well, what we can do. You hired everyone that knows kernel, and if someone shows up you are going to hire him/her as well. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 02 March 2008 03:24:57 pm Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Hi,

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Sunday 02 March 2008 02:33:09 pm Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

Obviously this is the easier to do the more knowledge we have among openSUSE contributors (which, on the kernel side, mainly boils down to Novell engineers, sadly).

:-D

Well, what we can do. You hired everyone that knows kernel, and if someone shows up you are going to hire him/her as well.

If I understand it right (which may be wrong), you say Novell/SUSE has to hire JFS knowledge just because you (and maybe few others) expect it.

My comment was on the quoted text, not on the whole thread topic. I'm happy with ext3 and reiserfs. I said that they already hired every kernel developer that was available and there is no more left in the community, and if someone shows up with ability to develop kernel, that person will be hired as well.

I guess you need to own or represent more than 10% of the Novell shares for things like that...

I guess that 1% is safe bet to have a word about couple of hires. According to information in this thread, and some other literature around, I don't see reason to keep JFS. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Is there any chance we could have JFS as an install choice for 11.0?

JFS has been getting ever more irrelevant over the last years as it and we already provide a number of more actively supported, more widely adopted, and better tested file systems. So, if anything, there should be a huge disclaimer as not to bother and file any reports should the use of JFS eat your data, burn your house and crash your machine.

My own recommendation these days is ext3 for system partitions and XFS for your data.

Going forward ext4 and others promise potential and I'd much prefer us to look into those rather than beating a dead horse.

(Sorry for being blunt, but we have a wide array of input from a large number of users and there is a reason why JFS is deprecated with current versions of SLES.)

Gerald

Blunt does it for me, as the misconstrued impression was that JFS was something you just didn't catch up with to date. It got good press elsewhere. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org