On 24/09/2018 19:11, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Am 24.09.18 um 11:31 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar:
On Mon, 2018-09-24 at 11:26 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Ok, so it will also get pulled in with "zypper dup --no-recommends". I'd actually like that. Because ssh is pretty broken in XFCE without it.
gcr-ssh-askpass also already has "Supplements: packageand(gpg2:gnome-shell)"
Supplements is a reverse recommends... both are ignored by --no- recommends
Ok, so technically it does not matter, and I can do recommends: in an XFCE pacakge without having anyone else involved.
(and using --no-recommends is not 'sane', just for the record; it is a deliberate choice to ignore recommendations by the packagers)
(OT) We can discuss this maybe at a future conference, for me (and some others I know), not using --no-r just makes regular updates unbearable. Something in between "Requires" and Recommends", that is "Requires" for zypper, but only recommends for RPM would be best, so that "Stuff you really should have to make it work" could be required harder than just recommends (evince-plugin-{ps,pdf}document comes to my mind), but still be uninstalled for some really minimal systems. IMHO too many package just recommend everything that could eventually be useful for someone, and if you always patch / dup with "--recommends", then the system inevitably grows every time by a significant amount. So something between "black" and "white" would be useful, granted, but we don't have that yet.
Thanks for all the input!
There is also http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028 which is a bug for just one of the probably many cases where patterns are broken if using --no-recommends. At the moment the way I see it, and the way that probably reflects the realities at the moment is something that is marked as recommends in most cases is something that is not essential but that the packager feels will make life better for most users. (Yeah there are probably still some things we can clean up), if someone then really doesn't want the recommended package for whatever reason they can remove it and lock it. The counter argument to this is users who complain when we don't recommend enough. The enlightenment pattern only used to recommend the things you needed to run enlightenment and several users complained that it didn't install enough stuff so now the pattern also installs a browser, media player and an office suite, because we also cater to users who want to do an installation and have a pretty much working system and not need to go pick a pdf viewer the first time they need to read a pdf and a picture viewer the first time they want to look at a jpg etc. As packagers we have to balance up both sides and come to something that will make most people happy. I don't think that adding something else between Requires, Recommends and Suggests is really going to fix that. How would it work? would it be an option users can select in the installer to "give me less packages" presuming users who want less are probably more advanced and will be better able to find understand and select that option then new users who we really should be given an out of the box functioning system. How do we document this new category for packagers? We then also have to deal with the fact we are now producing rpm's that other rpm based distro's won't be able to understand. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B