Hello, I've been monitoring the SuSE schools linux discussions for about a year. Some of the group know TechSoft, Ed Lea and Chris Puttick tested our (Windows) Design Tools software under WINE last year, very successfully. At present we don't produce a Linux version, but I'm keeping an eye on progress of Linux in schools in case we have to revise our position. Does anyone know how many schools use Linux? And what they use it for, ie admin or curriculum or both, and exclusively or in a mixed environment? (Talking of mixed environments, I use SuSE at home, but run Win 98 under Netraverse's Win4Lin for the other half who is wedded to her MS Apps. They do a network version, does anyone use that in schools? ) What is the general feeling about non-gpl software for Linux? Our software is written in C++ and as I understand it, not being a programmer, it could be re-compiled (with some effort) but we're never going to be giving it away. Our business model is we sell software (and CNC machines) then provide free tech support, sometimes for decades. Changing to free software and expensive support would seriously upset our established customers. School budgets being the strange things they are you could almost guarantee that when something goes wrong, or new, in-experienced staff arrive and need help, there is nothing in the 'support' budget. Our way means that once the budget has been approved and the software and kit bought, that's it. It may be old-fashioned but it works for us, and seems to suit our customers. Regards, Phil Thane - Support Manager TechSoft UK Ltd. Falcon House Royal Welch Avenue Bodelwyddan Denbighshire LL18 5TY UK Phone (+44) (0) 1745 535007 Fax (+44) (0) 1745 535008 Email phil@techsoftuk.co.uk Regards, Phil Thane - Support Manager TechSoft UK Ltd. Falcon House Royal Welch Avenue Bodelwyddan Denbighshire LL18 5TY UK Phone (+44) (0) 1745 535007 Fax (+44) (0) 1745 535008 Email phil@techsoftuk.co.uk
--- Phil Thane
Hello,
Hello -
know how many schools use Linux? And what they use it for, ie admin or curriculum or both, and exclusively or in a mixed environment?
It is a sorry thing to say, but many schools are only just beginning to use it server-side. Even many universities are not even using Linux (or dual-booting) for computing students.
What is the general feeling about non-gpl software for Linux? Our software is written in C++ and as I understand it, not being a programmer, it could be re-compiled (with some effort) but we're never going to be giving it
Re-compiled, I doubt. Ported, yes. But that would depend on what libraries were used, whether there are window's equivilents, whether there are any licensing issues with it, etc, etc.
away. Our business model is we sell software (and CNC machines) then provide free tech support, sometimes for decades. Changing to free software and expensive support would seriously upset our established customers.
Maybe, but giving them the option to use it, is more likely far greater an advantage. It is then usually a question of whether it is viable or not.
School budgets being the strange things they are you could almost guarantee that when something goes wrong, or new, in-experienced staff arrive and need help, there is nothing in the 'support' budget. Our way means that once
:) That is indeed so. As you've been here about a year, you must have gathered some rather interesting "data". -- Thomas Adam ===== "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- http://linuxgazette.net "TAG Editor" -- http://linuxgazette.net "<shrug> We'll just save up your sins, Thomas, and punish you for all of them at once when you get better. The experience will probably kill you. :)" -- Benjamin A. Okopnik (Linux Gazette Technical Editor) ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
It is a sorry thing to say, but many schools are only just beginning to use it server-side. Even many universities are not even using Linux (or dual-booting) for computing students.
Well, there are quite a few schools using Linux in various contexts - it is difficult to say how many - as some are in isolation. Here at Handsworth Grammar we are migrating to Linux across the whole of the computing department infact we have only one M$ suite left :-) I know of a few other places that are looking at and doing similar things. Schoolforge UK has been set up to co-ordinate and group schools using Free Libre and Open Source Solutions - and we expect that within the next few months we will be able to produce a more definative list of schools using FLOSS and at what levels. I will be talking to the ACITT conference in July and hope to get some response and pull together the various diverse examples of use! On a separate issue, Schoolforge is aware of the database 'gap' and are involved in a consortium planning to commision a substantial database solution to sit alongside OO.o v2. rgds, Richard Rothwell Chair Schoolforge UK www.schoolforge.org.uk PS At Handsworth we use LTSP with modern spec home PCs as servers and anything we can find as thin-clients. ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
--- Richard Rothwell
Here at Handsworth Grammar we are migrating to Linux across the whole of the computing department infact we have only one M$ suite left :-) I know of a few other places that are looking at and doing similar things.
That's a good thing. It is of course rather biased asking a suse-schools ML as to how Linux is being used. :) But I suspect more schools will follow. What it depends on are a number of things. Primarily it is whether the school thinks it a viable move, whether they actually *can* (RM, for example tie a school down by using Windows -- but then they are a reseller for it), and whether the sys/net admin(s) are able to handle it (but this has been discussed a lot here in the past).
Schoolforge UK has been set up to co-ordinate and group schools using Free Libre and Open Source Solutions - and we expect that within the next few months we will be able to produce a more definative list of schools using FLOSS and at what levels. I will be talking to the ACITT conference in July and hope to get some response and pull together the various diverse examples of use!
Excellent! I am very impressed with Schoolforge. -- Thomas Adam ===== "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- http://linuxgazette.net "TAG Editor" -- http://linuxgazette.net "<shrug> We'll just save up your sins, Thomas, and punish you for all of them at once when you get better. The experience will probably kill you. :)" -- Benjamin A. Okopnik (Linux Gazette Technical Editor) ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Hi Phil, As the others have said, porting to a different platform can be plagued with all sorts of issues, even when you start out with that in mind. We've just purchased a CNC + Software (can't tell you make just now) and paid a lot for it, so I'm not certain that price is a problem... But a very big consideration was the ability to read existing CAD files - we use Desktop pro (because it's free to schools)- and the quality of the rendered product. Some units required a lot of secondary manufacturing/finishing. The availability of PCB & 3D (free/cheap?) cad on the platform might be an issue too unless the import filters existed - these are not necessarily platform issues. Not sure about the others, but apart from Eagle Lite (for PCB) I've not seen any 3D (technical) CAD for LINUX that was free. Please tell me otherwise because I've been looking for a Desktop pro / TurboCad clone. Kind regards Adrian
On Thursday 13 May 2004 14:21, adrian.wells wrote:
Not sure about the others, but apart from Eagle Lite (for PCB) I've not seen any 3D (technical) CAD for LINUX that was free. Please tell me otherwise because I've been looking for a Desktop pro / TurboCad clone. There's a pretty good summary of available systems here:
http://pfrostie.freeservers.com/cad-tastrafy/ -- Phil Driscoll
On Thu, 13 May 2004, Phil Thane wrote:
Hello,
<snip>
What is the general feeling about non-gpl software for Linux? Our software is written in C++ and as I understand it, not being a programmer, it could be re-compiled (with some effort) but we're never going to be giving it away. Our business model is we sell software (and CNC machines) then provide free tech support, sometimes for decades. Changing to free software and expensive support would seriously upset our established customers.
Would you need to change the deal for your established customers? Just change it for new ones. Investment companies do this all the time. The original customers signed up for perpetual support after all, so you shouldn't (couldn't?) change the rules for them.
School budgets being the strange things they are you could almost guarantee that when something goes wrong, or new, in-experienced staff arrive and need help, there is nothing in the 'support' budget. Our way means that once the budget has been approved and the software and kit bought, that's it. It may be old-fashioned but it works for us, and seems to suit our customers.
You should be able to adapt the way you charge to fit with this; for example, be prepared to charge up front for (almost perpetual?) support. The trick is to keep the TCO unchanged, and as far as possible keep the same payment plan too. However it's not clear to me what business advantage there would be in making your software Free. Perhaps it would be easier for users to try before buying support? On the other hand there doesn't seem to be a big risk: I don't think you'd lose a lot of revenue from 'freeloaders' -- it looks like your software is of limited use without a CNC machine to drive. Bob Gautier Ateb Limited
Regards, Phil Thane - Support Manager
TechSoft UK Ltd. Falcon House Royal Welch Avenue Bodelwyddan Denbighshire LL18 5TY UK Phone (+44) (0) 1745 535007 Fax (+44) (0) 1745 535008 Email phil@techsoftuk.co.uk
Regards,
Phil Thane - Support Manager
TechSoft UK Ltd. Falcon House Royal Welch Avenue Bodelwyddan Denbighshire LL18 5TY UK
Phone (+44) (0) 1745 535007 Fax (+44) (0) 1745 535008 Email phil@techsoftuk.co.uk
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What is the general feeling about non-gpl software for Linux?
I reckon it's perfectly OK to pay for software: writers need their bread. (IMHO the "free" in "Free software" means free as in speech rather than free as in beer, although in the case of CC-type software I'm very happy for it to be closed-source and commercial, so long as it runs under KDE). What is less OK is for software suppliers to subsequently hold their customers over a barrel. Or, indeed, to grossly overcharge. You are allowed a yacht or two and a luxury retirement home in the Bahamas, but funds for three million yachts is bit much.
Our business model is we sell software (and CNC machines) then provide free tech support, sometimes for decades.
That does seem to be an unsustainable model - certainly in the long term.
Changing to free software and expensive support would seriously upset our established customers.
You need a middle way. But I agree, support is a thorny issue. Schools in trouble need it immediately. It's usually their fault and obvious to you on the spot, but difficult to diagnose remotely. And since all expenditure needs to be authorised the previous year after three quotes have been compared, it's difficult to get funds for emergency support! And since good software doesn't go wrong, it's difficult to justify paying in advance for support that ought not to be needed. Everyone's experimenting with different software provision models and maybe no-one knows the right answer, but it does anyway change with time and the nature of the software. The open model follows the way science and has developed over the last four centuries: the sharing of information for the common good. Philosophically, we like that, but philosophy does not pay the mortgage. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698, mobile 07816 821659 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
Phil Thane wrote:
Hello,
I've been monitoring the SuSE schools linux discussions for about a year. Some of the group know TechSoft, Ed Lea and Chris Puttick tested our (Windows) Design Tools software under WINE last year, very successfully. At
A problem I have found with 2D design under WINE is that on startup a dialogue box appears to be hidden under the splash screen. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 08:29:35AM +0100, Mark Evans wrote:
Phil Thane wrote:
Hello,
I've been monitoring the SuSE schools linux discussions for about a year. Some of the group know TechSoft, Ed Lea and Chris Puttick tested our (Windows) Design Tools software under WINE last year, very successfully. At
A problem I have found with 2D design under WINE is that on startup a dialogue box appears to be hidden under the splash screen.
This rings a bell... I can't remember which solution I found to this, but it was one of three fairly simple ones I think. Either the dialog only came up the first time you use it (in which case one of the next two solutions can be used just once). Or, I managed to use some keyboard shortcuts from my Window Manager to move the windows in question. Or, and I think this was probably how I got round it. I change my ~/.wine/config (I think that's the file, but as I said it's been a while) so that the window management mode is flipped. So if it was set by default to use the Window Manager then I made it not, or the converse of this. I realise this is a fairly incoherent email, but hopefully you have the jist of what I'm trying to say - I'm too busy at the moment to write this any clearer, sorry. -- Ed. He who laughs last thinks slowest
participants (9)
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adrian.wells -
Christopher Dawkins -
Ed Lea -
Mark Evans -
Phil Driscoll -
Phil Thane -
Richard Rothwell -
Robert J Gautier -
Thomas Adam