On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 06:27:26PM +0100, Adrian Wells wrote:

...

...

Mmmm, remember my comments about word being a world class piece of software? Used by nearly everyone? The ideal way to disseminate documents.

You all booed and shouted! :-) Did I return fire? - No! I just waited :-)

I still boo and shout. It's a proprietry format which requires you to have proprietry tools to produce it (quite apart from it being horrid). It is very far from being the ideal way to disseminate documentation. I've used WPs from the day dot, even written my own when the cost of something to do the job was just too much or not available on the platform I was using, and the best for general office work, despite all the extra baggage that I never use, and that stupid bloody paper-clip, has got to be Word - sorry!

Quite apart from anything else the `bloody paper-clip' (tm) makes me want to throw a brick at my monitor, so Word is ruled out on expense grounds (19" monitors being expensive to replace :)

And I can (and do) transmit files to co-workers all around the world. Do you think that I would pay so much to use something that didn't work. There is truth in the phrase, "you get what you pay for" ! Free is great IF it will do the job.

I don't exactly see what Word can do that free tools can't. I think there is truth in the phrase "you get what you pay for", in the case of Microsoft it's bloated, proprietry software that locks you in to a life of software and hardware upgrades and misery at vast expense. I used to use Word but when I found that I couldn't read .docs produced in one version of Word with an older version of Word I rapidly cottoned on to what MS's game was - ie. forcing users to upgrade whether they liked it or not.

...

There are any number of acceptable open formats - ascii, html, PS, PDF which can be produced by freely available applications. Ascii - Wot, no formatting. HTML - yeah, okay but clunky to write. PDF - fab, The correct way to do it, but at a cost. PS - huge and at a cost. These are all propriety formats by the way.

PDF and PS are proprietry but open formats for which there are freely available readers for /all/ platforms. There are few tools for dealing with .doc's on nix and none to produce them. HTML - non proprietry and can't word spit out, admittedly bad, html anyhow?

...

It sort of beggars belief that anybody should post a .doc file to a mailing list primarily concerned with the use of open software.

...

Thanks Malcolm! Regarding OSE too, Whoops! My point exactly.

...

Good news indeed regarding Becta encouraging the development of OSS for schools. But if schools are going to use OSS perhaps we should show that it is a practical proposition by using it ourselves.

So, which will you go for? Some readers of this list can't even read HTML e-mails. You need a format that is already in place though-out the world, so lets go for plain ascii, afterall it does have that computer-nurd look and feel.

I don't want html emails but I don't mind html attachments. Ascii is of course limited and I would personally recommend that PDF is used for documentation that needs to be distributed with formatting preserved. Anybody with a reasonably modern computer will either have a copy of Acrobat Reader or can download one from http://www.adobe.com/ for free. Adrian, can you save a Word .doc as plain text? Perhaps you would be good enough to post Malcolm's .doc to me as plain text and I'll make it available as PDF for those who can't deal with .docs <snipped> -- Frank *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/

On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:00:25PM +0100, Christopher Dawkins wrote:

...

...

...

There are any number of acceptable open formats - ascii, html, PS, PDF which can be produced by freely available applications.

Produced? PDF? I understood that, like Flash, the readers were free but the producers (apart from some freeware items) cost money.

Ghostscript produces PDF from PS and most things can produce postscript. I actually use a freeware program called pstill to produce PDF. LaTeX ---> DVI ----> DVIPS ----> PS ----> pstill/gs ----> PDF

...

...

PDF - fab, The correct way to do it, but at a cost. PS - huge and at a cost.

PDF and PS are proprietary but open formats for which there are freely available readers for /all/ platforms.

*All* platforms? Our BBCs can handle ASCII fine, but they can't read PDF. The PDF readers available for our pre-RISCOS-4 Arcs do not interpret much of what is in modern files.

Ok, antiques don't handle PDF ;-)

I still use some ex-SJ software for generating Postscript from our BBCs.

If you "view source" on http://www.felsted.org/curriculum/ict/weather/data/00/9/daily.htm you will see HTML pages generated daily and automatically on a BBC. And we can read HTML on our BBCs using lynx or links. But reading or writing PDF's on BBCs is not so easy.

How do they handle .docs?

...

There are few tools for dealing with .doc's on nix and none to produce them.

StarOffice on our FreeBSD systems generates .docs, if requested.

I forgot about StarOffice as I don't use it. Another problem with WP's is that they are no good for maths which is where the LaTeX/PDF combo really wins. FWIW, my university distributes some of my coursework (which can contain a lot of maths) to me as PDF. Perhaps schools should think about that too. BTW, I've made Malcolm's document available as PDF on my site for those who'd like it: http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/miscellany.html (link at bottom of that page) -- Frank *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/

On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:33:56AM +0200, Roger Whittaker wrote: <snip>

...

LaTeX ---> DVI ----> DVIPS ----> PS ----> pstill/gs ----> PDF

ps2pdf works absolutely fine for me. Does pstill have any special extra features?

I might have an oldish version of ghostscript as ps2pdf doesn't pick up some features eg. the bullets in Malcolm's document didn't come out. You seem to be able to finesse things a bit more with pstill although if I sorted out gs it would probably do just as good a job. The pstill site if anybody is interested: http://www.this.net/~frank/pstill.html

As to reading .doc files - well you can open/import them with StarOffice or Applixware, and also with kOffice. SuSE 7.0 includes a free X Window program called wordview which extracts the text and displays it in a graphical window.

But the point is not whether we can read the things if we have to, it's whether they are a sensible format for document exchange. And they're not, both because they are a proprietary format and because they are binary.

Thats right. PDF being an open specification allows anybody to right distillers and interpreters. Whereas .doc you're reliant on MS making the spec open and transparent, something that they haven't got a good track record on. -- Frank *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/

OK - so now we've got it in .rtf format. But none of the formatting actually added anything of interest to the document. So it could have just been part of a text email and none of this discussion would have happened. On the other hand, the UF cartoon couldn't have been sent other than as an attachment ... More seriously and importantly, the sudden unexpected return of the 1970s (history repeats itself the second time as farce) means I can't make it to L...dod. Which is a real pity and a shame. -- Roger Whittaker SuSE Linux Ltd The Kinetic Centre Theobald Street Borehamwood Herts WD6 4PJ ---------------------- 020 8387 1482 ---------------------- roger@suse-linux.co.uk ----------------------

The current room has 25 i333MHZ PCs, on 10MB BNC. network is a queer mix of 2 x Novell 3.12 servers, with an NT proxy & Wins server. The clients run under Win98.

As your clients are already thick, you might as well use them as thick to start with, which saves some server power and configuration. Load them all with identical copies of your chosen Unix variety, choose one machine as a master and keep the others in sync using "rdist". You need a server for all the home directories and the password file: distribute the home directories as a NFS mount and the password file using YP/NIS. We use Netscape and StarOffice, give them all shell logins and use pine for email. Use Apache on the server both for your intranet and as a proxy server, upgrade to Squid if your traffic is high. You can then expand the server to deal with thin clients, for which old 486-33's are adequate, though you need at least 12MB client RAM to avoid too much swapping. Server configuration is a more complicated when your clients are thin, but if client RAM is under 32MB you need to run the apps on the server.

I was telling the boss about how old kit could recycled using a thin client and he said if I can get the job done for Ł7K, I can go ahead. He would like to be able to free up 12 machines to re-distributed around the school.

Obviously I'd like to get a Linux box in there as the main server for the thin client end.

It works for thick clients too. It could easily become your main school filestore, it can serve all platforms, files, Web, email, printing - but not Citrix. However, if you really need it, an adjacent Citrix server can be accessed from your thick or thin clients using X based ICA.

Now, I could go down the Citrx route - if I can ever afford the licences, but what about having another server and using VNC, VMWare or even Wine.

Citrix is very expensive, but configuring VMware for multiple concurrent access is a complex job.

Can I do the job with only Ł7K: new server, CAT5 cabling, (thin client) licences, probably more memory for each machine, new NICs and so on.

Easily, I'd say, but don't say so, keep the surplus, be useful for black-market petrol. Our last batch of ISA NIC's was four pounds each. Spend money on Netgear 10/100 switches, Intel EtherExpress 10/100 cards in the server, maybe a RAID array, though that'll chew up your 7K. But tell me, since when have "licences" cost money? -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk

hi having since Chris Dawkins comments as well and baseing it on our observations here with Thin client testing, the argument is to forget the Citrix route, the license costs will kill you. What are the requirements for running Windows as the client OS, if can avoid doing that then the task of running thin client solutions that have 1. Ease of Management 2. robustness 3. support for multiple platforms 4. cost effective becomes much easier. with office apps like Star Office or even my current favourite ThinkFree then it is only the CD-ROM support that would be a problem. A conversation with VMware about copying all CD-ROM images to a Linux servers Win98 vm has yet to take place but would be potentially a solution. there is only limited usage of non-Windows desktops in schools (Felsted the exception), but it has potential when you really analyse what functionality is required. let me know if you want some direct advocacy or support. i am off the leash occasionally Malcolm ------------------------------------ Dr Malcolm Herbert Head of Technology R&D, Becta 02476 847126 Fax: 02476 847120 ------------------------------------ on 13/9/00 1:22 pm, `paul at smartart@cableinet.co.uk wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I need the benefit of your wiser and more experienced heads please.

I'm acting up as HoD (unpaid, alas) and I've managed to talk the senior DH into giving me some money. I've been given up to £7K to do away from a room full of equipment.

The current room has 25 i333MHZ PCs, on 10MB BNC. network is a queer mix of 2 x Novell 3.12 servers, with an NT proxy & Wins server. The clients run under Win98.

I was telling the boss about how old kit could recycled using a thin client and he said if I can get the job done for £7K, I can go ahead. He would like to be able to free up 12 machines to re-distributed around the school.

Obviously I'd like to get a Linux box in there as the main server for the thin client end.

Now, I could go down the Citrx route - if I can ever afford the licences, but what about having another server and using VNC, VMWare or even Wine.

But I haven't got any experience with any of it, apart from the 30 days when I ran VMWare on my own SuSE machine.

Can I do the job with only £7K: new server, CAT5 cabling, (thin client) licences, probably more memory for each machine, new NICs and so on.

Any ideas or advice would be very gratefully received. If I do a good job then there's a small showcase for other schools in the LEA, the bosses get to swank at other schools' bosses about what the school's done, SuSE gets to sell my school a half-price copy of v7.0 ;-) and maybe I increase my chances of a permanent FT position in January 2001.

TIA

Paul Hornshaw

In message <20000914113355.28547.qmail@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk>, Mark Evans writes

...

with office apps like Star Office or even my current favourite ThinkFree

Hopefully when Star Office goes open source in October the first thing which can be done is to get rid of the integrated desktop :)

LOL.

...

then it is only the CD-ROM support that would be a problem. A conversation with VMware about copying all CD-ROM images to a Linux servers Win98 vm has yet to take place but would be potentially a solution.

there is only limited usage of non-Windows desktops in schools (Felsted the exception), but it has potential when you really analyse what functionality is required.

The major issue here appears to be the lack of a publisher type program (preferably one which stands some chance of reading publisher files...)

Hmmn. Wouldn't VMWare though overcome this, if I limited it to running on just a couple of boxes. Though then I have the problem of KS3 and Text and Images.

This is the only application I've been unable to say, "this does the same as the Microsoft stuff, but costs us less."

As well as there being a lack GUI web/email software which can easily operate like mail, pine, elm, etc. i.e. rather than expecting the end user to configure evrything the program is able to work out things like email address (from the userid); where to store book marks (e.g. ~/.bookmarks; where to look for email (e.g. ~/Maildir); etc.

In some ways too good a job has been done of copying Windows, including the very things which make running Windows on a school LAN a headache.

For most things the easiest option is the "old fashioned" approach of a global configuration file and *optional* per user configurations (n.b. the global configuation file able to specify things such as unless the user is in a specific group ignore certain options in any per user config file which might exist.)

I was hoping that SuSE's (new) ALICE might help overcome this problem, as I believe it's for network installs (?)

An extension of this would be to have bookmarks, program menus and desktops made up of a global part, parts specific to members of each group and per user addons. Thus the only parts a student can alter are their own additions.

Right. thanks for that, Mark.

...

let me know if you want some direct advocacy or support. i am off the leash occasionally

Right. Time for me to get it down on paper and do my sums, and then take a deep breath and knock on the appropriate door and say I've got a better idea :-) Cheers, -- `paul

On Thu 14 Sep, Malcolm Herbert wrote:

hi

having since Chris Dawkins comments as well and baseing it on our observations here with Thin client testing, the argument is to forget the Citrix route, the license costs will kill you.

Typically I would agree with this. But a year ago Citrix had an offer of 30 licences for the cost of 15 which worked out at 100ukp per station. I thought that was cheaper than replacing our 8 year old Acorn stations simply to run word and excel - and it was. We also use it on old 386/486 stations around the school - and although I have tried Windows Terminal Server client I have found Citrix mich easier to cmanager and operate through their system of published applications and printer management. To be able to install an application once and find it automatically availble on every station (even if they only have a 386 and a 40MB HD) is simply magic. However, if the cost had been 200ukp per station I would have bought PC stations but still bought the terminal server. We run the Terminal server on our Backup Domain controller (despite Microsoft's protestations...) and it works fine - so it did not add the cost of another server. The server load (2x550MHz, 512MB RAM) is rarely above 50% - and when it is 20+ stations are booting into word, or IE5.

there is only limited usage of non-Windows desktops in schools (Felsted the exception), but it has potential when you really analyse what functionality is required.

I think its a shame if pupils never see another desktop -it gives them a false impression on the world of computing - as though knowing what button to press (and which menu its on) is the essence of IT.

let me know if you want some direct advocacy or support. i am off the leash occasionally

-- Alan Davies Head of Computing Birkenhead School

In message , Malcolm Herbert writes

hi

having since Chris Dawkins comments as well and baseing it on our observations here with Thin client testing, the argument is to forget the Citrix route, the license costs will kill you.

Okay. Thanks for that, Malcolm.

What are the requirements for running Windows as the client OS, if can avoid doing that then the task of running thin client solutions that have 1. Ease of Management 2. robustness 3. support for multiple platforms 4. cost effective becomes much easier.

Right. Our current setup is an absolute mess, believe me. I want to clear out the servers really as there is no documentation for the network at all. It's been 5 years since I've laid hands on a Novell server, and the NT/Wins setup is a real Heath Robinson mish mash. The whole thing is a nightmare. The Win98 clients have been setup with poledit and are a breeze to circumvent.

with office apps like Star Office or even my current favourite ThinkFree then it is only the CD-ROM support that would be a problem. A conversation with VMware about copying all CD-ROM images to a Linux servers Win98 vm has yet to take place but would be potentially a solution.

Hmmn. With a VM setup the conversion from MS toLinux would be a bit easier, as the non-believer would still have their lifebelts.

there is only limited usage of non-Windows desktops in schools (Felsted the exception), but it has potential when you really analyse what functionality is required.

I'm sold on Linux, even though I'm currently posting this from my Win2k partition. I would love to be able show the bosses what packages like Applix and Star Office can really do, and how very hard it would be for the resident script kiddies to banjax a Linux system.

let me know if you want some direct advocacy or support. i am off the leash occasionally

Thanks for the offer, Malcolm. -- Paul Hornshaw St Alered's Catholic Technology College Newton le Willows Tel: 01925 225974 x 221

Adrian, can you save a Word .doc as plain text? Perhaps you would be good enough to post Malcolm's .doc to me as plain text and I'll make it available as PDF for those who can't deal with .docs

Sorry Frank, This e-mail was caught-up somewhere, so too late now since you have said that you have (or someone said) that the doc has been posted as PDF already. The answer is yes, of course. Kind regards Adrian