On Fri, 2 May 2003, Alan Davies wrote:

I'm not sure that 'free' is a good way to go here.

Administration is a mission critical area of school function. As such it can't possibly rely on goodwill of volunteers to find bugs and solve them - or to test new versions rigorously.

There is no reason why Free software need only be supported in the way you describe. In fact the support options for a Free software package are more flexible than those for a proprietary package. The latter can often only be supported by its vendor, because nobody else can get access to the source code. If a software package is Free then you have the right to use, modify, and redistribute the software, and to allow others to do that for you. That means that you can support the software yourself, or get someone else to do it for you. If the operation of a piece of (Free) software is very important to you, there is nothing to stop you paying someone to keep the software working. You are better off when shopping for support for Free software because there can be a real market in those services; multiple providers who have to compete for your custom. Proper support is like an insurance policy: you pay someone to take some of the risk that the software will break. While I'm sure that Free software is the right way to go, perhaps the project that builds that software needs to address the issue of ongoing support - a revenue cost not simply for the right to use the software, but for keeping it working. A cost that competition might keep low. Bob G

OK, in this school we use RM Integris. First of all our staff use it constantly, it runs well, it has all the data they need if not too much data in some cases. We have support from our LEA for the product, although sometimes the support is slightly lacking but the job gets done eventually. My opinion, and this is all it is, is that we would not go to a free admin system because of the above, we know it, we use it, it works. Personally, when something goes wrong, i know who to point the finger at and who to contact. Would this be the same with an Open Source admin system and would a group volunteer themselves to be in the firing line of support and problem queries locally, as sometimes we have to have visits from the LEA to sort more complex problems. As it stands, i wouldnt want our admin team to switch to anything else. Not trying to dampen things, but these issues i feel are relevant and very important before any software is created. Quoting Alan Davies :

I'm not sure that 'free' is a good way to go here.

Administration is a mission critical area of school function. As such it can't possibly rely on goodwill of volunteers to find bugs and solve them - or to test new versions rigorously.

I am disappointed that the market is so dominated by a single supplier - SIMS (which we don't use - we use Phoenix).

In fact considering the high cost of SIMS I am surprised that there are not more competitors out there - but the reality is that users once familiar with SIMS (and having heared of SIMS) are not ready to migrate to anything else whether technically better, cheaper - or free.

(A rather similar argument as to why Microsoft continues to dominate).

I would be much in favour of some industry standard SQL based database to drive these systems with suppliers providing mix and match module capability- but that would require specifications laid down by Department of Education and such a scheme would end up being more expensive than giving all schools SIMS, run years over due and not work properly as users required at the end.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Duncan" To: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:37 PM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started

...

Hi all,

I have read messages on this list with interest over the last few

...

topic, which is of interest to me, has been raised on several occasions, namely, the question of a free school administration software

months. A package.

...

A project has now been started to produce such a package. It is at

...

stage and has need of volunteers to help define the requirements of

...

and assist with the construction of it. I am posting to this list because I am convinced that the most effective way to produce a free software application of this nature is to engage the education community in it's development from

the planning the system the

...

outset.

If you would like to become involved please visit this site:

http://schooltool.sourceforge.net

and subscribe to the mailing list.

Regards

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com

:) ------------------------------- Simon Davies Systems Manager Queen Elizabeth Cambria School Tel:01267236451 Fax:01267238224 www.queenelizabethcambria.com -------------------------------

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 10:12:05AM +0100, Richard Rothwell wrote:

Hi All,

I think that we need to step back for a moment and look at this with a longer perspective. Here are a few random thoughts....

1. I don't think anyone is suggesting that many schools need to move to the free admin software immediately;

Where the alternative is spending lots of money on new hardware in order to run the "next generation" of SIMS an alternative which dosn't require wholesale hardware replacement looks very good.

2. This project is opening doors for people and allowing more choice;

3. There is a good philosophical and moral arguement for paying for support - not for the coding;

Also for payment to be made locally, rather than to a foreign company thousands of miles away.

4. Openess about coding and file formats has to be a good idea;

If nothing else it would bring down the costs related to support. Both by allowing competition and reducing the need for people to try and work out how something actually works.

5. The users might have some good ideas about what is needed and how it should be implemented;

Something which often appears lacking right now. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:16:40PM -0000, MJ Ray wrote:

simon@qec.carms.sch.uk wrote:

...

Personally, when something goes wrong, i know who to point the finger at and who to contact.

You may know who to point the finger at, but proprietary software suppliers often only have to help you if they feel so inclined.

Typically their EULAs will say "you can't sue us even if it's as much use as a chocolate teapot in the middle of the Sahara".

With a free software system, you would be able to shop on the open market for support. If your LEA supported it for you, they would be able to

Interesting how they don't appear to have any issues with "supporting" proprietary software. Even if they have no clue how it actually works.

solve things themselves, or buy second (or third or further back) line support on the open market. In the transition, they can buy training for their support staff on the open market. Even if all the supporters go into a oligopoly(sp?), prices are likely to be lower than your current

Are you sure you don't mean "cartel", "oligopoly" would mean something along the lines of "a minority of many".

system's monopoly and new entrants can come into the market even then.

-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

Quoting "adrian.wells" :

Unfortunately many of these decisions are made ultimately by bursars who like to be able to point the finger at listed companies rather than a group of like minded geeks (no insults intended). It's about accountability (pun intended). When it goes down the tubes for whatever reason, "..but we pay them £1000's for the software" has much more clout than "... yes, but it was free!" or "...every other school in the country uses it" as opposed to "but our computer whiz said that we ought to try it out"

Hopefully there would be a rigorous evaluation of ANY software that is being considered for adoption by an organisation. The fitness of the software for the purpose intended, support options and cost would all be evaluated according to their relative importance to the organisation. If a product is chosen that isn't up to the job, I would be inclined to take issue with the process. If a product is chosen on the say-so of a 'computer whiz' alone, then the parties responsible for the decision ought to be looking for alternative employment. I'm not sure why you suggest that because you pay £1000s for software, you would have more clout with the software vendor. Real world experience says that a company in a near monopoly position is not going to be too bothered by complaints if enough units continue to be sold.

It's not the users that you have to convince; you can teach monkeys to do anything

If your users find a computer system too difficult to use, they will simply find ways not to use it. I would contend that you DO need to convince the users in order to ensure that you gain measurable benefits from the computer system instead of paying for a system that hampers staff.

it's those taking the flack if it goes wrong, bursars and governors. Not the most dynamic of audiences!

Having said that, we do appear to be getting more IT literate/happy governors on boards as time goes by.

The school budget is one of the major issues in many schools at present. If governors/bursars can be shown a positive improvement of the bottom line over a reasonable period of time as a direct result of introducing free software, I think they may be interested. Regards Chris

adrian.wells wrote:

Unfortunately many of these decisions are made ultimately by bursars who like to be able to point the finger at listed companies rather than a group of like minded geeks (no insults intended). It's about accountability [...]

So buy it from a listed company? You don't have to buy proprietary all the time. You could buy free software, with whatever extras you want. In fact, having the knowledge that they paid a fair price (instead of a monopoly one) and have both the ability to withhold money *AND* to change suppliers without junking the 1000s they've already spent should be more attractive to every sane bursar. -- MJR http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ IM: slef@jabber.at This is my home web site. This for Jabber Messaging. How's my writing? Let me know via any of my contact details.

David Bowles wrote:

Yes there are opportunities for innovation and the adoption of open source resources within schools, but a 'me too' replacement for the too well established 'SIMS' system is unlikely to be one of them.

Well, the need for a free software IMS system was one of the most oft-repeated themes that I heard from the floor at the recent conference, so I think we have to start trying. If we leave it too long, too many more places will be pressured into overpriced proprietary systems. I'm not involved in any other specific school software projects and student tracking is something that causes me trouble right now. So, my time is not being taken away from working on other education software. If you feel that some other project will benefit more from your time, go to it (and let us know what happens...) MJR

Bruce Miller wrote:

'builds on your current investment in SIMS by working on current school data'

I think I have to quote directly from Eddie Bleasdale's talk at the recent conference: "You have not invested anything in IT. You have spent a lot of money and it won't come back." That said, we should try to turn some of the money that they have spent into an investment in our more sustainable system, by avoiding data input etc. One person that I spoke to already has experience in accessing the SQL database of a proprietary system. I should email them to ask for any tips that they have. Then again, we need to be careful not to require users to have a particular proprietary system and copying their database schema would probably have copyright problems. I quite agree that a component-based web system is probably the easiest way to nudge the juggernaut into a layby. I guess this is not the best list to discuss it, though. -- MJR http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ IM: slef@jabber.at This is my home web site. This for Jabber Messaging. How's my writing? Let me know via any of my contact details.

Hi, Just been browsing a Mag called "Public Sector Computing" with the banner, "The Magazine that Maximises your IT Budget!" - never seen this mag before... Just had a word with the editor Jo Sawyer Re: OSS generally and with regard to this issues artical regarding SIMS et al (9 others) type software. The fact that it's all POA was mentioned! She said that she's very keen on feedback/comments and has run articles on OSS, maybe someone close to the project should get in touch? editorial@publicsectorcomputing.co.uk I looked for back issues on-line but there is no website (that I could find!) or 0121-233-8745 or Editorial Department Public Sector Computing 1st Floor Edward House 92/93 Edward Street Birmingham B1 2RA

<Second replies below> -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 05 May 2003 19:02 To: Bruce Miller Cc: Suse-Linux-Uk-Schools Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:53:18AM +0100, Bruce Miller wrote:

On this idea of 'Me Too':

The whole Capita / SIMS juggernaut is not something that anyone could easily push off the road, I would have thought.

It depends who's doing the pushing. Individual schools probably not, LEAs maybe. < My experience is that it would be the LEA's who will be the hardest people to change >

Now,

http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/alberto20000919.php3

is an article that says Linux and PHP could be used to interface with the current SIMS database of MS SQL (which I believe they use).

Still requires a "No Thankyou" SQL server. Especially considering the hacks which appear to be involved in making the data backupable. < Don't know about the need to hack into MS SQL unfortunately. My meagre experience is only with PHP and MySQL which seems to work well. Disappointing if this is the case.>

This way, creating a Web based set-up that could run from any computer, Win or Lin ((Mac or Acorn (?)) could be created.

In terms of skilling, human resources, change-over costs and change-over risks, the adoption of third party bolt-ons is a concept that could have a more eager uptake.

What's to prevent an LEA or CES themselves saying that a third party "bolt on" results in void "support"? < This could possibly be a problem.>

This would make for manageable small projects that could be achievably produced by groups of keen teachers and also by student project too(!) - Don't know about you lot, but every year my A'level students struggle to find projects and the exam boards seem to love database interfacing as a topic.

You don't intend letting your students at the real data, since there are DPA issues involved. < I think I had the use of dummy files in mind on this one, and a separate SQL server> Bruce.

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 09:21:51AM +0100, Alan Davies wrote:

I'm not sure that 'free' is a good way to go here.

Administration is a mission critical area of school function. As such it can't possibly rely on goodwill of volunteers to find bugs and solve them - or to test new versions rigorously.

As opposed to relying on the goodwill of a commercial company, who's real interest is to make money and keep their shareholders happy. You could just as easily argue that it is too important and mission critical for control *not* to be in the public sector. Nothing stops LEA's, BECTa, etc or even commercial companies from supporting a school management system.

I am disappointed that the market is so dominated by a single supplier - SIMS (which we don't use - we use Phoenix).

In fact considering the high cost of SIMS I am surprised that there are not more competitors out there - but the reality is that users once familiar with SIMS (and having heared of SIMS) are not ready to migrate to anything else whether technically better, cheaper - or free.

This would make sense were it not for Capita continually fiddling with everything, including user interface. Much to the annoyance of the staff who actually have to use it. The reason we stick with SIMS is because of the LEA... -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763