March 2001 - openSUSE Edu - openSUSE Mailing Lists

Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Technical questions still answered here? SENDMAIL
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

> I can send mail from the SUSE6.4 server or from any win98 > machine attached to it Send mail where - can you send to demon or the internet or do you just mean sending mail locally ? > but I can't download the mail from the demon server. What does /var/log/maillog (or whatever you have configured as the log for sendmail) say when demon tries to connect ? This may provide a clue. If there is nothing in the log, then check that sendmail is running and accessible from the internet side (maybe try to get someone to telnet to your machine, on port 25 and see if they get a text banner, whilst you are online ... ?) Kevin.

1 0

Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Using Sourceforge for OSIE ..
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

> Also, why use sourceforge, why not just make > a similar thing for our own site - I'm sure I could > write cgi scripts to do it We could (once we have a site to run it on) ... but I would say that we don't want to spend the first month or so building an infrastructure to enable us to start on the project ... Sourceforge exists today, and works ... hence the proposal (in order to channel our time into the actual OSIE project itself ...) There are other sites too, but sourceforge is full featured and well respected in the community (as far as I have seen), I don't have any 'references' for other sites ... so don't know anything about them. Kevin.

1 0

Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] OSE Discussion structure - moving forward
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

> Done as requested - please check http://www.osie.org.uk/ Looks good to me. Kevin. (is this where most of the readership of the list collectively fall off their chairs, as Michael and I start agreeing about things ... :-)

1 0

Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] OSE Discussion structure - moving forward (was: Free as in speech ?)
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

> osie.org.uk is currently just a placeholder domain - www.osie.org.uk is > redirected to the old Fen Systems Resource Library (as being the most > appropriate content I had available at the time should anyone mistakenly > type the address in), but I haven't publicised the address www.osie.org.uk > and so I'm not expecting anyone to visit it. Well, you did post something to comp.education.schools-it listing an osie.org.uk email address ... and now to the SuSE list ... we have comments already, so people *are* looking at it. With regards to content, can I suggest that a placeholder page is created stating that the details of the organisation are being worked out ? Maybe include links to your resource library, ose.org.uk and seul/edu as places to go for information about Linux and Education. I don't think we can say anymore right now - but when the meeting results are agreed, then they could be added too. Kevin.

3 3

Technical questions still answered here? SENDMAIL
by James & Cybèle 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

Hi THought we could take a break from the comfy chat to help me out! Having problems with my sendmail config. I can send mail from the SUSE6.4 server or from any win98 machine attached to it but I can't download the mail from the demon server. According to what I've read I don't need Fetchmail, etc because Demon can handle SMTP downloads so what is missing from my set up? Thanks James Carter

2 1

Using Sourceforge for OSIE .. (was: OSIE write-up 0.0.1 ...)
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

> Can I just ask then, that before you do anything with sourceforge, Ok - seeing as http://sourceforge.net/projects/osie/ exists ... an earlier post asked about the possibility of using sourceforge for all admin/management of OSIE, as it permits us to have mailing lists, todo/tasks, etc ... but everyone taking an active role would need a sourceforge ID (I think ...). If everyone agrees that this is a good way to manage the 'organisation' then I would recommend that everyone who wants to be actively involved in the management of OSIE (either technical or otherwise) create a sourceforge ID and request to become a member of the osie team. Membership of the mailing lists does not require a sourceforge login ID - so anyone just wanting to be involved in discussions can just subscribe the the appropriate mailing lists. The lists are archived. So, can I propose that we create an admin mailing list via the sourceforge osie project and move core discussions about policies/aims/techy bits over to that ? Kevin.

3 2

Moving Forward
by Alan Harris 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

OK Guys, Thanks to Paul & Michael for the write up. This list is beginning to look like a war zone :-) Can we have a posting clarifying the situation with regard to who does what within OSE/OSIE? Who's on the admin team? Who's on the editorial team? Who's on the content team? What part do you want school's people to play? Perhaps members could make a single posting to this list stating their area of expertise / interest and in what area of OSE/OSIE they would like to participate and, perhaps a brief resume of thier current projects / developments etc and what organisations (if any) that they represent. If your happy with this idea then I'm quite prepared to start the ball rolling...... Thoughts Roger, Malcolm, Micheal et al? Also, let's have some postings from all those 'hiding in the background' - What do you want to see from OSE/OSIE? How do you think Open Source can contribute to schools ICT besides the obvious (cost). If you are teachers what materials would you like to see available to encourage the use of Open Source in schools? So lets get it together guys and really start working for a better future..... Alan ----------------------------------------------------- Alan Harris Network Manager Bryngwyn School Tel : 01554 750661 Fax : 01554 758255 E-mail: alanh(a)bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch ----------------------------------------------------- Notes: 1. The contents of this email may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown purposes! Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000. 2. The opinions expressed in this email are personal and may not be shared by Bryngwyn School. -----------------------------------------------------

2 1

OSIE write-up 0.0.1
by ptaylor 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

Sorry about the delay. Here is the first draft of the meeting to be marked-up and revised where necessary. Paul On March 12th 2001 at Westwood St. Thomas' School, Salisbury, there was a meeting which took place in order to establish an official structure for the OSIE (Open Source in Education) initiative. The meeting was extremely well represented by people from across the spectrum of educational establishments, LEAs and companies involved in the distribution and support of the Linux O/S, throughout the UK. The underlying purpose of the meeting was to determine a more specific structure for the organisation, its basic principles and objectives, and the long-term aims. All of these ideas were discussed through presentations and discussions from all parties present. The initial points of discussion were introduced jointly by Roger Whittaker (SuSE, UKUUG) and Michael Brown (Fen Systems). Roger's presentation showed the developments to-date toward the creation of OSIE and the need to unify the knowledge and experience that was clearly represented in the meeting. He also mentioned the involvement of companies like SuSE and Red Hat (Malcolm Herbert was unable to attend the meeting but has been instrumental in the ground swell of interest in OSIE). While these commercial organisations are involved integrally in OSIE, they stressed that it was purely in a supportive role. One example of this is the use of the SuSE for Schools news group which has acted as a point of contact for the people present. Roger was quick to emphasise that this in itself was an 'open' forum and would be happy to incorporate this into OSIE once established. Roger also gave a brief introduction to the practical considerations needed in order to make this organisation a credible and viable one. Once the skeleton had been sketched out, it was down to Michael Brown to put some flesh on the bones. Michael has also made some in-roads into the creation of an education specific set of resources and registered an official domain name for the organisation which was one topic for later debate. Michael's tie, like Roger's, is a commercial one, though again he stressed his desire to act as a support to the organisation and not a controlling one. Michael already has a comprehensive database of information and tutorials which he proposed would be the basis for the organisation's knowledge pool and since he already had this involvement, he would like to be involved in maintaining and up-dating this resource. One proposal in relation to this was the formation of three branches that all members (who would be non-paying) would be part of: editorial, technical, and contributors. It was also noted by several participants that this resource should be carefully managed and not become an incomprehensible archive f redundant data. It should be a professional one that would be an evolving one created by practitioners for practitioners. The professional focus was a point of discussion throughout the day. It was felt by many people present that this organisation would only work, and indeed had to through necessity, as a professional one. The long-term implications were flagged up by several other participants and some sub0discussions revolved around the potential for industry based support but more importantly, for peer acceptance. It was clear that many at the meeting were firm believers in the use and promotion of open source solutions, but others stressed the difficulties of more widespread acceptance which the meeting had been called to address. Roger addressed some of these concerns which underpinned the need of a professional structure and appearance to OSIE, and for the right mix and level of support. The great difficulty with OSIE in general will be the fact that the great majority of decision makers are not technically proficient and therefore many of the advantages of open source are lost on them. What they need to see is practical working examples in the "real world". Once this happens, then the solutions will sell themselves. In order to support this it was proposed that the participation and pool of knowledge be widened throughout the UK with subsequent meetings and discussions and the incorporation of geographical points of contact to display working solutions. OSIE would act as the vehicle for this but this is essential for people not familiar with the utility of open source to see examples. In relation to this last point, the later part of the morning was taken up with a demonstration by Christopher Dawkins (Felsted School) of his own system based on open source solutions. Networking problems within the host school meant that the full potential of Felsted was not was possible to demonstrate but a KDE desktop was displayed on the host school site which was running from one of his desktop machines 200 miles away. This in itself was powerful enough as an image of the possibilities. Christopher, through open source solutions, has managed to create a "total ICT solution" that the Dutch football team would be proud of, incorporating several platforms and applications, including BBCs running teletext within the school. He talked at length to the group in terms of the inclusive nature of this solution and also the enormous cost and learning benefits. One sub-plot of the meeting was the issue of dealing with the standard response of people in education who have not seen the benefits of open source encapsulated in the almost universal dictate "they don't use it in companies, therefore it is not useful". Michael had discussed this point earlier and Christopher had addressed it more fully in his practical displays. Most present felt that this was a difficult one to address and the key factor which determined it, and again reinforced the need for OSIE, was ignorance. As an educator myself, I believe that it is inherently wrong to train 'Microsoft proficient units' and not educate students into a deeper understanding of the machines that know form the backbone of the Information Age. The emphasis of the meeting was not a commercial one, but one designed to address the need for solutions that are challenging, education specific, affordable and reasonable. If students can learn the principles underlying using a word processor, spreadsheet etc., then they can cope with any application in the market place, MS or otherwise. Christopher also poignantly noted that if students struggle with something like Star Office, they are still learning and perhaps that is more important than making them "ready for industry". Perhaps a useful analogy to illustrate this would be if you told a history teacher that they had to teach a Stalinist interpretation of history because this is "what everyone else does", they would tell you what you could do in no uncertain terms. Why then must ICT teachers teach computers through the lens of Microsoft? This point was discussed in some depth and carried on through lunch and into the afternoon. The term "free" has some rather negative connotations in society at large. Many people that control the purse strings like the idea of saving money but "free" denotes "no good". It was felt by the group that the emphasis should rather be on "open", as in accessible for all. A more detailed written explanation in line with something like the GPL could accompany this for anyone wanting to dig deeper. Also, to reiterate, the strong emphasis must be on the UK schools specific nature of OSIE. Once the organisation becomes the defacto and dejure organisation that schools turn to for these solutions, then it will take on its own life and grow and expand. A more focused debate in the afternoon targeted some of the practical considerations of making the organisation move to the next phase. It was agreed that the help with infrastructure being offered by UKUUG, SuSE, Red Hat, Fen Systems and others would be a useful basis for development toward a wider incorporation of the aims and objectives put forward. In light of this, it was provisionally accepted to work on the title and destination of the next meeting. Members present from Leeds University suggested their venue as did the Welsh contingent. Though all agreed that this was positive and necessary, no formal decision has yet been made. The next few weeks will entail more detailed discussion, preliminary through the SuSE for Schools forum, to begin implementing the preliminary ideas and findings that came out of the meeting. The afternoon wrapped up with another practical demonstration of the available solutions that help to answer some of the criticisms that currently exist. Phil Jones was an independent developer that had created an instructive web site using a Linux server and Windows client in order to teach students more complex elements of web design including PHP and SQL. All of this was accomplished in a clear and understandable way which had some real potential in schools. Though he used a commercial application to integrate the machines and not something like VNC, he was able to show a working version of GIMP running in native Linux on a Windows desktop, including the KDE task bar sitting on top of the Windows one. It was felt that these solutions are central to the success and up-take of OSIE and should be incorporated into the official site. They can also be developed alongside the structural and administrative considerations such as localised technical support and on-line learning resources in order to increase the user base of OSIE solutions. The first official meeting of OSIE was therefore well represented, informative, and generally felt to be successful for all participating with a great deal of future potential. I strongly believe that this is the beginning of a necessary and timely intervention into the growing needs of education not currently served by the "closed source" alternative. Members present Company Roger Whittaker SuSE Michael Brown Fen Systems Paul Taylor Westwood St. Thomas School Steve Berry Westwood St. Thomas School Michael Robinson Westwood St. Thomas School Matthew Summers LJ Group Colin Davies Meadow School Gavin Lee Innovation-X Rob Maltey Rosemary Musker High School Mark Frans St Peter's High School Philip Hands Alcove UK (Debian) Adrian Carey Dialnet Bob Gautier Aleb Ltd Carol Tough Ysyol y Gwendraeth Miles Berry St. Ives School Steve Rochford College of NW London Christopher Dawkins Felsted School Richard Smedley Its Linux ?????? (illegible hand writing, sorry) Learning Lab Giles Nunn Carms LEA Alan Harris Bryngwyn School Kevin Taylor Northants LUG Andrew Ray Computer Park Limited Ian Lynch IRL Computer Systems Ltd. George Coxhead Leeds Metropolitan University Tony Moan Univentures Phil Jones??? Apologies for my bad interpretation of your hand writing if I have made a mistake. I also did not have the name of the person that did the last presentation but I know his name was Phil.

4 4

[suse-linux-uk-schools] Free as in speech?
by Ian Lynch 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

Seems to me that you are always going to get people with some commercial interest either directly or indirectly contributing to this forum. After all, Linux is used in many commercial applications. I come clean and say that my main interest is in diverting money spent on software licences into support and training in schools. I have a vested interst in that market and a particular expertise in government funding and projects in schools and national education networks (people as well as cable). I don't mind sharing that expertise and I don't think Michael minds sharing his in areas where I or others are weak either because the sharing is what gives us some chance in the competition. There are obviously going to be times when some of us will also be in competition with each other. I hope we get a lot of other commercial interests involved. Even with the drive of these interests it will be an uphill battle getting Linux a significant desktop presence in schools. Democracy is a great thing, but the competitors to Linux are not renowned for their gentlemanly conduct in this respect so we have to be just as tough. I'm not sure how long it takes to get a reputation and experience in this community but frankly, time is short. My reputation and experience aren't in this particular forum but then many in this forum wouldn't have any credibility in some of my other circles. I'm in favour of anyone having their say and if I think its biased I'll take that into account. Some of the debate needs to be at least reasonably robust. Michael's contribution to the longest running thread in uk.education.schools-it was restrained, objective and helpful so I can't really see the problem. He is obviously passionate about what he is doing and this will be vital for overall success. Perhaps the culture is different here? Do let us know because some of us have little experience of this list. If it is the wrong forum for driving open source into schools, perhaps we need a new one with that focus. regards, Ian ________________ Reply Header ________________ Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free as in speech? Author: Malcolm Herbert <mherbert(a)redhat.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:31:50 +0000 hi all in an attempt to 'put off' the impending flamefest, i feel it might be appropriate to say what i think this list is for and how people like Michael Brown can contribute constructively for majority. as i see it, the list is for both advocacy and technical advice, as far as i know it has not been used by anyone for commerical spamming. However, i made a comment to Michael today that i thought that he was putting his point of view too strongly, as an individual and without any form of mandate. In this community that can only come by reputation and experience. i welcome anyone's comments about configuring desktops and they should posted to the list, but not to the detriment of the whole list, which seems to have happened this week. i am really dissappointed about his comments on free speech in the context of this list. in the last couple of years i have become a realist and see the way forward for Linux/Open Source in education as offering realistic solutions. I have still a lot to learn on how to provide solutions to schools using a great and wonderful resource that the open source community provides. this list and any future OS(I?)E organisation should reflect the community consensus that as it moves forward and looks to the bigger picture, showing people that there is a viable solution as an alternative to proprietary software yours freely (as in speech and a bottle of Hoegarten) Malcolm On Monday 19 March 2001 19:33, you wrote: > Michael Brown wrote: > > "If you would like some free advice, with no strings attached, then please > e-mail me direct or repost the question in a free [1] forum such as the > Usenet newsgroup uk.education.schools-it." > > [1] in the sense of "free speech", not "free beer" > > ------- > > Am I to imply from this that you have been told that you cannot exercise > "free speech" on this forum or only that you cannot push your particular > business offerings here? > > Just interested. > > Paul -- ------------------------------------ Malcolm Herbert Red Hat Europe t:+44 1483 734955 m:+44 7720 079845 ------------------------------------

1 0

Squid: Banned sites auto-update
by Phil Jones 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

Dear all I would like to set up a service which will automatically update the Squid proxy server's banned sites list. It would work using Concurrent Version System (CVS). Once a day, it would: - Get the current version of the banned sites list and update Squid. - Add any new sites which the school has added to their version of the list to the current version. - Remove any sites which the school has taken off their version of the list from the current version. This would offer all those taking part in the service "herd immunity". For example, suppose http://www.some.provider.net/~someone/hotstuff/ pops up and goes round one school. The Squid administrator would add that site to the banned list to prevent it being accessed any more. The next day, every other Squid server using the service would know about it too. I suggest this would be a great improvement on the existing clumsy filtering technologies which sometimes block access to acceptable sites (see: http://www.peacefire.org for story). Is there already a project like this up in the UK? Which schools using Squid would like to volunteer their facilities to help develop this? Would a pound a week per subscriber (for example) to cover hosting costs be an acceptable price to pay for accesss to this service? Please do all let me know. Best wishes Phil

4 3