Hello all,
I'm now testing openSUSE 13.1 beta1, but noticed that no documentations (opensuse-{kvm,manuals,reference..}_$LANG-*.noarch.rpm) found in repo/oss/suse/noarch directory.
In OBS side, opensuse-manuals_$LANG (in project "Documentation") was marked as "broken" ("Files could not be expanded..").
is it OBS server problem? or any other problem?
Thanks,
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:09 +0900 Yasuhiko Kamata wrote:
Hi,
I'm now testing openSUSE 13.1 beta1, but noticed that no documentations (opensuse-{kvm,manuals,reference..}_$LANG-*.noarch.rpm) found in repo/oss/suse/noarch directory.
yes.
It has been decided to move the openSUSE documentation to http://activedoc.opensuse.org/. ActiveDoc is a new interactive openSUSE documentation platform where you can not only read the manuals, but also can edit them in WYSIWYG style. Compared to sending patches for XML sources, this will make it much easier for people outside the documentation team to participate in the openSUSE documentation. As a consequence, the openSUSE manuals will no longer be maintained from the XML sources in SVN, but rather directly on ActiveDoc.
on 13.1 we have way more packages than fit on a DVD (image). Therefore it was decided to drop all manuals except the Start-Up Guide. See bugzilla: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=840026 (they will be available for reading online, of course).
Whether these drops also apply to the other distribution formats (e.g. FTP) IMHO remains subject of discussion. Personally I would appreciate to have documentation packages for the FTP distribution. It's possible to export HTML and PDF from ActiveDoc and package these formats.
In OBS side, opensuse-manuals_$LANG (in project "Documentation") was marked as "broken" ("Files could not be expanded..").
As for the translation, it was our plan to approach the translators soon in order to discuss on this list how to handle translations. We are currently trying to figure out how to make the transition for the translators as easy as possible.
Looks like we should start this discussion now ;-) - Karl and Tomáš, would you please share what you have found out until now?
Note: Ludwig, would you please subscribe to opensue-doc in order to be able to follow this discussion? Everybody: Please keep Ludwig in Cc until he subscribes to this list.
Hello,
Am Montag, 30. September 2013 schrieb Frank Sundermeyer:
It has been decided to move the openSUSE documentation to http://activedoc.opensuse.org/. ActiveDoc is a new interactive openSUSE documentation platform where you can not only read the manuals, but also can edit them in WYSIWYG style.
I have a silly question - how? ;-)
I logged in on activedoc with Konqueror, but don't see an edit button anywhere. The only additions in the UI are my username etc. in the header and the "View" and "Revisions" tabs below the headline.
I'd like to fix a small bug in
http://activedoc.opensuse.org/book/opensuse-123-security-guide/23-profiling-...
23.2.2 Location and Directory Directives [...] <Location /foo/> AAHatName MY_HAT_NAME </Location>
should be
<Location /foo/> AAHatName MY_HAT_NAME </Location>
(I won't object if you fix this yourself, but I'm still interested how to edit the text.)
BTW: I'd also recommend to reduce the height of the header, especially on the start page - on 900x1440px laptop screens, the "Current documents" section is only partially visible without scrolling.
Oh, and while I'm in complain mode: I tried to add my Novell account in the user preferences / HybridAuth, but this only opens a new window for some seconds without doing any changes.
Gruß
Christian Boltz
On Sep 30, 13 18:25:49 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:
Hello,
Am Montag, 30. September 2013 schrieb Frank Sundermeyer:
It has been decided to move the openSUSE documentation to http://activedoc.opensuse.org/. ActiveDoc is a new interactive openSUSE documentation platform where you can not only read the manuals, but also can edit them in WYSIWYG style.
I have a silly question - how? ;-)
Editing appears disabled currently. I also cannot edit anything. Investigating.
I logged in on activedoc with Konqueror, but don't see an edit button anywhere. The only additions in the UI are my username etc. in the header and the "View" and "Revisions" tabs below the headline.
Same for me.
BTW: I'd also recommend to reduce the height of the header, especially on the start page - on 900x1440px laptop screens, the "Current documents" section is only partially visible without scrolling.
Hmm, with Firefox, it easily fits in a 1340 x 840 window. I can see ''ActiveDoc is...'' below, and 'Recent Changes'' next to the ''Current documents'' listing.
Oh, and while I'm in complain mode: I tried to add my Novell account in the user preferences / HybridAuth, but this only opens a new window for some seconds without doing any changes.
The window should open for a few seconds, then close. And then the main window would refresh, to show your user name in the top row. Again that works fine with Firefox. Time for me to test konqueror, maybe?
cheers, JW-
Hello,
Am Montag, 30. September 2013 schrieb Juergen Weigert:
On Sep 30, 13 18:25:49 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:
Am Montag, 30. September 2013 schrieb Frank Sundermeyer:
It has been decided to move the openSUSE documentation to http://activedoc.opensuse.org/. ActiveDoc is a new interactive openSUSE documentation platform where you can not only read the manuals, but also can edit them in WYSIWYG style.
I have a silly question - how? ;-)
Editing appears disabled currently. I also cannot edit anything. Investigating.
Any results?
BTW: I'd also recommend to reduce the height of the header, especially on the start page - on 900x1440px laptop screens, the "Current documents" section is only partially visible without scrolling.
Hmm, with Firefox, it easily fits in a 1340 x 840 window. I can see ''ActiveDoc is...'' below, and 'Recent Changes'' next to the ''Current documents'' listing.
It probably depends on the amount of toolbars you have ;-) In Firefox (with the bookmark "tool"bar and the web developer toolbar - in other words: not too much), the last thing I see without scrolling are the "openSUSE 12.3" headlines of the current documents, but not the titles like "Security Guide".
Oh, and while I'm in complain mode: I tried to add my Novell account in the user preferences / HybridAuth, but this only opens a new window for some seconds without doing any changes.
The window should open for a few seconds, then close. And then the main window would refresh, to show your user name in the top row. Again that works fine with Firefox. Time for me to test konqueror, maybe?
Yes, maybe ;-)
I just tested in Firefox _without_ logging in before (so basically I logged in with the Novell account), got a confirmation mail and it worked.
I then tried to change the username to "cboltz" and got The website encountered an unexpected error. Please try again later.
It's not too surprising that this fails (I already use "cboltz" for the account I have for my mail address), but I'd expect a better error message, for example This username is already used by someone else. Please choose a different username.
Another test in Konqueror showed that logging in with the Novell account is still not working, so you should really start testing Konqueror ;-)
BTW: Regarding Konqueror version - I'm using Factory - but I'm quite sure you are not surprised about this ,-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
Hi!
As openSUSE 13.1 documentation is going to be placed on activedoc.opensuse.org (and I am in chanrge of its management), we need to solve the problem with translated versions. Therefore, I would like translators to tell me more about input document formats they need to do the translations, maybe even the way they do it. On the contrary, I can specify in detail how Drupal (the engine behind ActiveDoc) handles translations. Maybe we can find a solution which is satisfactory for both sides.
Looking forward to hearing from you!
Tomas Bazant , SUSE Linux CZ
Hi, Tomáš,
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Tomáš Bažant tbazant@suse.cz wrote:
Hi!
As openSUSE 13.1 documentation is going to be placed on activedoc.opensuse.org (and I am in chanrge of its management), we need to solve the problem with translated versions. Therefore, I would like translators to tell me more about input document formats they need to do the translations, maybe even the way they do it. On the contrary, I can specify in detail how Drupal (the engine behind ActiveDoc) handles translations. Maybe we can find a solution which is satisfactory for both sides.
Here's the way I do Chinese translation for now:
1. svn co the 50-pot/50-tools/en/zh_CN
2. update/extract 50-pot/*.pot from en/xml
3. fill into zh_CN/po
4. make another set of scripts to upload it to transifex.net (We have a team about 20 people there, now we have finished opensuse-startup and about 50% opensuse-reference guide, they're in a second stage on transifex: reviewed solely by me, so it's slow that I didn't package for 13.1)
5. wait for them to translate, also translate them myself on transifex
6. fetch the translated po
7. convert to zh_CN/xml with 50-tool tools
8. use daps to generate pdf/epub.
9. upload it to anonymous ftp at ftp://forum.suse.org.cn
10. Users download and learn
So for me, the input document format will be po file or xml file.
PS: will translated versions on activedoc.o.o too?
I just can't figure out how it works right now...I guess it's some kinda social editing, right?
But what if translated version got a modification that different from the English one ?
Or it's just a new web interface for English document editors, so we can attract more new editors? (but for a short time, we will still give translators a place to get _static_ files for translation instead of dynamically translating on the same web, right?)
Greetings
Marguerite
Hi Marguerite!
Thank you very much for the description of your translation workflow. And YES, we plan to have translations on ActiveDoc. ActiveDoc (Drupal) has it the following way:
* you edit a chapter/section/book page primarily in English with a WYSIWYG/HTML web editor * each page can have its translated version, which is also edited the same way * as a result, changing the web language changes the content as well (if the specified translation is available) * primary content format for ActiveDoc is (X)HTML
From which follows, that:
* when translating the whole content, it can be done manually directly in ActiveDOc * but if you need an external translation service (such as transifex), we have to exchange the content in some format supported by both services (drupal and transifex). What is the reason you convert XML to *.pot files? Is XHTML not sufficient?
Regards
Tomas
Marguerite Su píše v St 02. 10. 2013 v 06:52 +0800:
Hi, Tomáš,
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Tomáš Bažant tbazant@suse.cz wrote:
Hi!
As openSUSE 13.1 documentation is going to be placed on activedoc.opensuse.org (and I am in chanrge of its management), we need to solve the problem with translated versions. Therefore, I would like translators to tell me more about input document formats they need to do the translations, maybe even the way they do it. On the contrary, I can specify in detail how Drupal (the engine behind ActiveDoc) handles translations. Maybe we can find a solution which is satisfactory for both sides.
Here's the way I do Chinese translation for now:
svn co the 50-pot/50-tools/en/zh_CN
update/extract 50-pot/*.pot from en/xml
fill into zh_CN/po
make another set of scripts to upload it to transifex.net (We have
a team about 20 people there, now we have finished opensuse-startup and about 50% opensuse-reference guide, they're in a second stage on transifex: reviewed solely by me, so it's slow that I didn't package for 13.1)
wait for them to translate, also translate them myself on transifex
fetch the translated po
convert to zh_CN/xml with 50-tool tools
use daps to generate pdf/epub.
upload it to anonymous ftp at ftp://forum.suse.org.cn
Users download and learn
So for me, the input document format will be po file or xml file.
PS: will translated versions on activedoc.o.o too?
I just can't figure out how it works right now...I guess it's some kinda social editing, right?
But what if translated version got a modification that different from the English one ?
Or it's just a new web interface for English document editors, so we can attract more new editors? (but for a short time, we will still give translators a place to get _static_ files for translation instead of dynamically translating on the same web, right?)
Greetings
Marguerite
Hi,
Le 02/10/2013 09:57, Tomáš Bažant a écrit :
Hi Marguerite!
Thank you very much for the description of your translation workflow. And YES, we plan to have translations on ActiveDoc. ActiveDoc (Drupal) has it the following way:
- you edit a chapter/section/book page primarily in English with a
WYSIWYG/HTML web editor
- each page can have its translated version, which is also edited the
same way
- as a result, changing the web language changes the content as well
(if the specified translation is available)
How are handled updates? I mean I translated a page into French and English page is updated. Should I check changes manually?
- primary content format for ActiveDoc is (X)HTML
From which follows, that:
- when translating the whole content, it can be done manually directly
in ActiveDOc
- but if you need an external translation service (such as transifex),
we have to exchange the content in some format supported by both services (drupal and transifex). What is the reason you convert XML to *.pot files? Is XHTML not sufficient?
Maintaining translations using POT/PO files is easy. You can reuse translations, see what was updated, etc.
Guillaume
Regards
Tomas
Marguerite Su píše v St 02. 10. 2013 v 06:52 +0800:
Hi, Tomáš,
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Tomáš Bažant tbazant@suse.cz wrote:
Hi!
As openSUSE 13.1 documentation is going to be placed on activedoc.opensuse.org (and I am in chanrge of its management), we need to solve the problem with translated versions. Therefore, I would like translators to tell me more about input document formats they need to do the translations, maybe even the way they do it. On the contrary, I can specify in detail how Drupal (the engine behind ActiveDoc) handles translations. Maybe we can find a solution which is satisfactory for both sides.
Here's the way I do Chinese translation for now:
svn co the 50-pot/50-tools/en/zh_CN
update/extract 50-pot/*.pot from en/xml
fill into zh_CN/po
make another set of scripts to upload it to transifex.net (We have
a team about 20 people there, now we have finished opensuse-startup and about 50% opensuse-reference guide, they're in a second stage on transifex: reviewed solely by me, so it's slow that I didn't package for 13.1)
wait for them to translate, also translate them myself on transifex
fetch the translated po
convert to zh_CN/xml with 50-tool tools
use daps to generate pdf/epub.
upload it to anonymous ftp at ftp://forum.suse.org.cn
Users download and learn
So for me, the input document format will be po file or xml file.
PS: will translated versions on activedoc.o.o too?
I just can't figure out how it works right now...I guess it's some kinda social editing, right?
But what if translated version got a modification that different from the English one ?
Or it's just a new web interface for English document editors, so we can attract more new editors? (but for a short time, we will still give translators a place to get _static_ files for translation instead of dynamically translating on the same web, right?)
Greetings
Marguerite
Guillaume Gardet píše v St 02. 10. 2013 v 10:13 +0200:
Hi,
Le 02/10/2013 09:57, Tomáš Bažant a écrit :
Hi Marguerite!
Thank you very much for the description of your translation workflow. And YES, we plan to have translations on ActiveDoc. ActiveDoc (Drupal) has it the following way:
- you edit a chapter/section/book page primarily in English with a
WYSIWYG/HTML web editor
- each page can have its translated version, which is also edited the
same way
- as a result, changing the web language changes the content as well
(if the specified translation is available)
How are handled updates? I mean I translated a page into French and English page is updated. Should I check changes manually?
There is a 'diff' available to each drupal node, so that you can compare any 2 revisions from present to past. You cannot, though, compare 2 different nodes (= 'pages')
- primary content format for ActiveDoc is (X)HTML
From which follows, that:
- when translating the whole content, it can be done manually directly
in ActiveDOc
- but if you need an external translation service (such as transifex),
we have to exchange the content in some format supported by both services (drupal and transifex). What is the reason you convert XML to *.pot files? Is XHTML not sufficient?
Maintaining translations using POT/PO files is easy. You can reuse translations, see what was updated, etc.
I see...
Guillaume
Regards
Tomas
Marguerite Su píše v St 02. 10. 2013 v 06:52 +0800:
Hi, Tomáš,
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Tomáš Bažant tbazant@suse.cz wrote:
Hi!
As openSUSE 13.1 documentation is going to be placed on activedoc.opensuse.org (and I am in chanrge of its management), we need to solve the problem with translated versions. Therefore, I would like translators to tell me more about input document formats they need to do the translations, maybe even the way they do it. On the contrary, I can specify in detail how Drupal (the engine behind ActiveDoc) handles translations. Maybe we can find a solution which is satisfactory for both sides.
Here's the way I do Chinese translation for now:
svn co the 50-pot/50-tools/en/zh_CN
update/extract 50-pot/*.pot from en/xml
fill into zh_CN/po
make another set of scripts to upload it to transifex.net (We have
a team about 20 people there, now we have finished opensuse-startup and about 50% opensuse-reference guide, they're in a second stage on transifex: reviewed solely by me, so it's slow that I didn't package for 13.1)
wait for them to translate, also translate them myself on transifex
fetch the translated po
convert to zh_CN/xml with 50-tool tools
use daps to generate pdf/epub.
upload it to anonymous ftp at ftp://forum.suse.org.cn
Users download and learn
So for me, the input document format will be po file or xml file.
PS: will translated versions on activedoc.o.o too?
I just can't figure out how it works right now...I guess it's some kinda social editing, right?
But what if translated version got a modification that different from the English one ?
Or it's just a new web interface for English document editors, so we can attract more new editors? (but for a short time, we will still give translators a place to get _static_ files for translation instead of dynamically translating on the same web, right?)
Greetings
Marguerite
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Tomáš Bažant tbazant@suse.cz wrote:
- but if you need an external translation service (such as transifex),
we have to exchange the content in some format supported by both services (drupal and transifex). What is the reason you convert XML to *.pot files? Is XHTML not sufficient?
Ha, here's the reason I chose to use transifex before:
Reason 0: svn needs permission...and I can't ask for 20 or more accounts on svn.o.o, which is really dangerous to us and those accounts can't be managed by me. The curious newbies will screw everything around. I need some kinda control to maintain the good feeling of Chinese community in our international "Home", meanwhile I need a way that everybody can join me.
Reason 1:
Most Chinese do learn English in their school days. But they just learn it to pass paper tests. They have a strong tradition to see everything in Chinese. Transifex has a Chinese interface.
Reason2: po file is the format used by transifex and almost all the projects...it's familiar to them. wiki or social style is just too hard for someone. I have been advocating such styles for a long long time to local community...but they just ask for the po files. The new way sounds like opensuse-community.org/Main_Page and opensuse-community.org/Main_Page/zh-hans, but I don't wanna end up in a situation that I myself will be the only translator.
Reason3: If you translate it offline, xhtml can't avoid the syntax tags...which can be mistranslated into Chinese, later it'll be a real mess for me or other people who feel responsible to keep it compile.
And you can't diff them all the time just to watch what has been changed. po file can.
The reason I don't perfer xhtml offline is just because there's no WYSIWYG translation tool.
The reason why I said "translate offline compability" is because most of my contributors are from collages. Maybe it's hard for you to imagine, Chinese university/collage don't have free IPv4 Internet access. And some of them even have to use Public computers.
So...offline is a must to me...if our community can't provide such capability...I think we're actually just out-souring this work to me...then I have to maintain another (the third for me) set of tools on github...
Greetings
Marguerite
Hello
I've read you post and now i understand your reasons for liking .po files and offline access.
There is the possibility to manually convert the existing English pages from html to pot & po files, and after your team translates them, recreate the structure back to html with the translated strings and manually import the pages one by one into Activedoc.
It is quite time-consuming way, but I'm afraid the onle one feasible.
BTW ActiveDoc now contains openSUSE 13.1 set of manuals in English - with Start-Up Guide also in German - have a look at http://activedoc.opensuse.org/book/opensuse-131-start-up and http://activedoc.opensuse.org/de/book/opensuse-131-start-up
Regards
Tomas
Dne 2.10.2013 12:22, Marguerite Su napsal(a):
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Tomáš Bažant tbazant@suse.cz wrote:
- but if you need an external translation service (such as transifex),
we have to exchange the content in some format supported by both services (drupal and transifex). What is the reason you convert XML to *.pot files? Is XHTML not sufficient?
Ha, here's the reason I chose to use transifex before:
Reason 0: svn needs permission...and I can't ask for 20 or more accounts on svn.o.o, which is really dangerous to us and those accounts can't be managed by me. The curious newbies will screw everything around. I need some kinda control to maintain the good feeling of Chinese community in our international "Home", meanwhile I need a way that everybody can join me.
Reason 1:
Most Chinese do learn English in their school days. But they just learn it to pass paper tests. They have a strong tradition to see everything in Chinese. Transifex has a Chinese interface.
Reason2: po file is the format used by transifex and almost all the projects...it's familiar to them. wiki or social style is just too hard for someone. I have been advocating such styles for a long long time to local community...but they just ask for the po files. The new way sounds like opensuse-community.org/Main_Page and opensuse-community.org/Main_Page/zh-hans, but I don't wanna end up in a situation that I myself will be the only translator.
Reason3: If you translate it offline, xhtml can't avoid the syntax tags...which can be mistranslated into Chinese, later it'll be a real mess for me or other people who feel responsible to keep it compile.
And you can't diff them all the time just to watch what has been changed. po file can.
The reason I don't perfer xhtml offline is just because there's no WYSIWYG translation tool.
The reason why I said "translate offline compability" is because most of my contributors are from collages. Maybe it's hard for you to imagine, Chinese university/collage don't have free IPv4 Internet access. And some of them even have to use Public computers.
So...offline is a must to me...if our community can't provide such capability...I think we're actually just out-souring this work to me...then I have to maintain another (the third for me) set of tools on github...
Greetings
Marguerite
Christian Boltz píše v Po 30. 09. 2013 v 22:23 +0200:
Hello,
Am Montag, 30. September 2013 schrieb Juergen Weigert:
On Sep 30, 13 18:25:49 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:
Am Montag, 30. September 2013 schrieb Frank Sundermeyer:
It has been decided to move the openSUSE documentation to http://activedoc.opensuse.org/. ActiveDoc is a new interactive openSUSE documentation platform where you can not only read the manuals, but also can edit them in WYSIWYG style.
I have a silly question - how? ;-)
Editing appears disabled currently. I also cannot edit anything. Investigating.
Any results?
now adding new/editing own content is enabled for every registered user
BTW: I'd also recommend to reduce the height of the header, especially on the start page - on 900x1440px laptop screens, the "Current documents" section is only partially visible without scrolling.
Hmm, with Firefox, it easily fits in a 1340 x 840 window. I can see ''ActiveDoc is...'' below, and 'Recent Changes'' next to the ''Current documents'' listing.
It probably depends on the amount of toolbars you have ;-) In Firefox (with the bookmark "tool"bar and the web developer toolbar - in other words: not too much), the last thing I see without scrolling are the "openSUSE 12.3" headlines of the current documents, but not the titles like "Security Guide".
i'm adding this into my TODO list
Oh, and while I'm in complain mode: I tried to add my Novell account in the user preferences / HybridAuth, but this only opens a new window for some seconds without doing any changes.
The window should open for a few seconds, then close. And then the main window would refresh, to show your user name in the top row. Again that works fine with Firefox. Time for me to test konqueror, maybe?
maybe, but definitely not now please. But if konqueror's webkit based, it should be ok anyway.....try google or fb login (novell login sometimes troubles even me...)
Yes, maybe ;-)
I just tested in Firefox _without_ logging in before (so basically I logged in with the Novell account), got a confirmation mail and it worked.
I then tried to change the username to "cboltz" and got The website encountered an unexpected error. Please try again later.
It's not too surprising that this fails (I already use "cboltz" for the account I have for my mail address), but I'd expect a better error message, for example This username is already used by someone else. Please choose a different username.
Another test in Konqueror showed that logging in with the Novell account is still not working, so you should really start testing Konqueror ;-)
BTW: Regarding Konqueror version - I'm using Factory - but I'm quite sure you are not surprised about this ,-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
PHP bietet einige Möglicheiten etwas falsch zu machen. Die phpBB Entwickler haben wohl viele dieser Möglichkeiten genutzt. [Kommentar auf http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2007/12106.html]
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Christian Boltz -
Christian Boltz -
Frank Sundermeyer -
Guillaume Gardet -
Juergen Weigert -
Marguerite Su -
Tomáš Bažant -
Yasuhiko Kamata