amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

guru shashi

8 Mar 2006 8 Mar '06

13:05

Hello, I have been using suse10 an acer amd64, turion laptop. Until recently not noticed that my laptop getting over heated. I am running an Suse 10.0 64-bit version on the box. Has anyone identified/noticed if things work better on 32-bit versions or the previous versions running on 64bit box. I am quite perplexed and helpless with this. Also the fan doesn't seem to run all the time (though when plugged in or when on powersave ) ... also just goes on and off during recharge. and i never run it for a strech of more than 4 to 6 hours. All suggestions are welcome. -- Thanx ... Guru

Show replies by date

Manuel Soriano

8 Mar 8 Mar

14:28

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

El Miércoles 08 Marzo 2006 14:05, guru shashi escribió:

...

Hello,

I have been using suse10 an acer amd64, turion laptop.

Until recently not noticed that my laptop getting over heated. I am running an Suse 10.0 64-bit version on the box. Has anyone identified/noticed if things work better on 32-bit versions or the previous versions running on 64bit box. I am quite perplexed and helpless with this. Also the fan doesn't seem to run all the time (though when plugged in or when on powersave ) ... also just goes on and off during recharge.

and i never run it for a strech of more than 4 to 6 hours.

I have a HP Pavilion 8050EA Turion M37 with 1G of memory 2, hard discs eide (not sata). I'm running a 10gR2 Oracle server, with windows in WmWare emulation, apache server with reports in client-server, sometimes the fan goes on. Compiling the Qt-4.1 library, the fan goes on after few minutes, the same for the kernel. Compiling the Qt-4.1 takes ~20 minutes, in an AthlonXP-2400+ (also 1G of memory), the same compilation takes ~40 minutes. This is not a real benchmark, but a good indicator. -- Bye, Manu. Break the rules! Break the windows! Use Linux! manu at valux.org http://www.valux.org Linux is here to stay. FUD won't make it go away. ************************************************* * Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) Linux Counter Nº: 294597 Para que funcione la alianza de civilizaciones, todos deben ser civilizados.

guru shashi

9 Mar 9 Mar

14:10

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

Hi Manuel, I just did some comparision of md5sum's captured the time ... for a 600MB file on Knopix (32 bit version) and Suse 10 - 64 bit. Knopix: real 0m25.108s user 0m4.000s sys 0m0.930s Suse10.0 - 64bit real 0m25.816s user 0m5.504s sys 0m1.552s Not too sure if this is the right way to go about making comparisions ... though Knoppix was a Live cd. BTW ... while building openssl ... CPU load always shows 100%. #powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 68 Critical: 97 Passive: 93 1600.048706 MHz Is there anyways I could opt my fan to keep runnin ... all time? This isn't supported in my bios. Best Regards, Guru On 3/8/06, Manuel Soriano wrote:

...

El Miércoles 08 Marzo 2006 14:05, guru shashi escribió:

...
Hello,

I have been using suse10 an acer amd64, turion laptop.

Until recently not noticed that my laptop getting over heated. I am running an Suse 10.0 64-bit version on the box. Has anyone identified/noticed if things work better on 32-bit versions or the previous versions running on 64bit box. I am quite perplexed and helpless with this. Also the fan doesn't seem to run all the time (though when plugged in or when on powersave ) ... also just goes on and off during recharge.

and i never run it for a strech of more than 4 to 6 hours.

I have a HP Pavilion 8050EA Turion M37 with 1G of memory 2, hard discs eide (not sata).

I'm running a 10gR2 Oracle server, with windows in WmWare emulation, apache server with reports in client-server, sometimes the fan goes on.

Compiling the Qt-4.1 library, the fan goes on after few minutes, the same for the kernel.

Compiling the Qt-4.1 takes ~20 minutes, in an AthlonXP-2400+ (also 1G of memory), the same compilation takes ~40 minutes.

This is not a real benchmark, but a good indicator.

--

Bye, Manu.

Break the rules! Break the windows! Use Linux! manu at valux.org http://www.valux.org Linux is here to stay. FUD won't make it go away. ************************************************* * Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) Linux Counter Nº: 294597 Para que funcione la alianza de civilizaciones, todos deben ser civilizados.

-- Check the List-Unsubscribe header to unsubscribe For additional commands, email: suse-amd64-help@suse.com

-- Best Regardz, Guru

Manuel Soriano

14:40

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

El Jueves 09 Marzo 2006 15:10, escribió:

...

Is there anyways I could opt my fan to keep runnin ... all time? This isn't supported in my bios.

I am not using the Suse Kernel (2.6.13-15-7), but the stock kernel 2.6.15. I have a lot of problems with the chipset (ATI-XP), solved with the stock kernel... Can be this your solution... Sometimes, the fan goes on... a pleasure... Only the USB mouse, generates APIC's errors and the wireless. There is no Windows 64 bit drivers for the Broadcom-4318 (UDI: 14E4:4319) ... -- Bye, Manu. Break the rules! Break the windows! Use Linux! manu at valux.org http://www.valux.org Linux is here to stay. FUD won't make it go away. ************************************************* * Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) Linux Counter Nº: 294597 Para que funcione la alianza de civilizaciones, todos deben ser civilizados.

Norm Mackey

17:28

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

Hi Guru: I was faced with this problem simply running memtest86, and I found a setting in the BIOS that let me specify which fan belonged to the CPU. I set it to control an unused fan connector, which made the CPU fan run constantly at full speed from the old connector. YMMV. Best, Norm

...

-----Original Message----- From: guru shashi [mailto:shashi.guru@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 6:11 AM To: Manuel Soriano Cc: suse-amd64@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

Hi Manuel,

I just did some comparision of md5sum's captured the time ... for a 600MB file on Knopix (32 bit version) and Suse 10 - 64 bit.

Knopix: real 0m25.108s user 0m4.000s sys 0m0.930s

Suse10.0 - 64bit real 0m25.816s user 0m5.504s sys 0m1.552s

Not too sure if this is the right way to go about making comparisions ... though Knoppix was a Live cd.

BTW ... while building openssl ... CPU load always shows 100%.

#powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 68 Critical: 97 Passive: 93 1600.048706 MHz

Is there anyways I could opt my fan to keep runnin ... all time? This isn't supported in my bios.

Best Regards, Guru

On 3/8/06, Manuel Soriano wrote:

...
El Miércoles 08 Marzo 2006 14:05, guru shashi escribió:

...
Hello,

I have been using suse10 an acer amd64, turion laptop.

Until recently not noticed that my laptop getting over heated. I am running an Suse 10.0 64-bit version on the box. Has anyone identified/noticed if things work better on 32-bit versions or the previous versions running on 64bit box. I am quite perplexed and helpless with this. Also the fan doesn't seem to run all the time (though when plugged in or when on powersave ) ... also just goes on and off during recharge.

and i never run it for a strech of more than 4 to 6 hours.

I have a HP Pavilion 8050EA Turion M37 with 1G of memory 2, hard discs eide (not sata).

I'm running a 10gR2 Oracle server, with windows in WmWare emulation, apache server with reports in client-server, sometimes the fan goes on.

Compiling the Qt-4.1 library, the fan goes on after few minutes, the same for the kernel.

Compiling the Qt-4.1 takes ~20 minutes, in an AthlonXP-2400+ (also 1G of memory), the same compilation takes ~40 minutes.

This is not a real benchmark, but a good indicator.

--

Bye, Manu.

Break the rules! Break the windows! Use Linux! manu at valux.org http://www.valux.org Linux is here to stay. FUD won't make it go away. ************************************************* * Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) Linux Counter Nº: 294597 Para que funcione la alianza de civilizaciones, todos deben ser civilizados.

-- Check the List-Unsubscribe header to unsubscribe For additional commands, email: suse-amd64-help@suse.com

-- Best Regardz, Guru

Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas

22:58

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

guru shashi wrote:

...

... BTW ... while building openssl ... CPU load always shows 100%.

#powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 68 Critical: 97 Passive: 93 1600.048706 MHz

Is there anyways I could opt my fan to keep runnin ... all time? This isn't supported in my bios.

Best Regards, Guru

In order to make valid comparisons, we should also note the ambient temperature. The fans cannot cool to below ambient. My AMD64 is 2.2 GHz. When it runs at 800 MHz, this is what I get at an ambient temperature of 25°C: gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 37 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 797.938721 MHz Since I have not resolved the java issue with my OpenOffice, which puts a lot of load on the CPU, I used it as a means to get the CPU to run at 1.8 GHz and even 2.2 GHz for a while. This is what I get then: gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 61 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 2194.327637 MHz You can find files with fan settings and other parameters relating to thermal management in the directory '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM'. Since your BIOS may be controlling most of these settings, I don't know which of them would have any impact if set by the user --if they can be written to. Nonetheless, they may give you a better idea of how your system works. CF -- Running 64-bit Linux on AMD64

guru shashi

10 Mar 10 Mar

01:50

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

Hii Here are the details you asked for:- Could not find the fan config details ... says as not such files of directory. #cat /proc/acpi/fan/*/* cat: /proc/acpi/fan/*/*: No such file or directory # cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/*/* <setting not supported> cooling mode: passive polling frequency: 2 seconds state: ok temperature: 52 C critical (S5): 97 C passive: 93 C: tc1=2 tc2=3 tsp=40 devices=0xffff81001bee9b80 Thanks Guru On 3/10/06, Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas wrote:

...

guru shashi wrote:

...
... BTW ... while building openssl ... CPU load always shows 100%.

#powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 68 Critical: 97 Passive: 93 1600.048706 MHz

Is there anyways I could opt my fan to keep runnin ... all time? This isn't supported in my bios.

Best Regards, Guru

In order to make valid comparisons, we should also note the ambient temperature. The fans cannot cool to below ambient. My AMD64 is 2.2 GHz. When it runs at 800 MHz, this is what I get at an ambient temperature of 25°C:

gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 37 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 797.938721 MHz

Since I have not resolved the java issue with my OpenOffice, which puts a lot of load on the CPU, I used it as a means to get the CPU to run at 1.8 GHz and even 2.2 GHz for a while. This is what I get then:

gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 61 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 2194.327637 MHz

You can find files with fan settings and other parameters relating to thermal management in the directory '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM'. Since your BIOS may be controlling most of these settings, I don't know which of them would have any impact if set by the user --if they can be written to. Nonetheless, they may give you a better idea of how your system works.

CF

-- Running 64-bit Linux on AMD64

-- Check the List-Unsubscribe header to unsubscribe For additional commands, email: suse-amd64-help@suse.com

-- Best Regardz, Guru

Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas

02:32

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

Which version of SuSE are you running? I am running 10.0, with kernel 2.6.14. As I said, the files of interest are in the directory '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM/', but not all of them can be written to. The directory '/proc/acpi/fan' is empty on my system. If the fan trip points are controlled by the BIOS (and in my system they seem to be), you probably won't be able to change them. After all, if you were able to change them and placed the wrong values, your nice laptop could go up in smoke --literally! Furthermore, if the ambient temperature is too high, radiative cooling may not be enough, so the fans will HAVE to run all the time. BTW, I tried editing the '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM/trip_points' file with vim (as root), but after the write vim warned me that the file I was editing on the screen no longer matched the file on disk or something like that (which should not happen with a normal file). I read the SuSE 9.3 manual (the last big manual in print as they went to all electronic 10.0); it clearly states that most of the values in these files are for information as the BIOS controls most, if not all, of them. That is all I know. Maybe the kernel experts here have better answers for you. After my initial adventures with overheating, HP replaced my 64-bit laptop and the one they gave me seems to run very cool. CF guru shashi wrote:

...

Hii

Here are the details you asked for:- Could not find the fan config details ... says as not such files of directory.

#cat /proc/acpi/fan/*/* cat: /proc/acpi/fan/*/*: No such file or directory

# cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/*/* <setting not supported> cooling mode: passive polling frequency: 2 seconds state: ok temperature: 52 C critical (S5): 97 C passive: 93 C: tc1=2 tc2=3 tsp=40 devices=0xffff81001bee9b80

Thanks Guru

On 3/10/06, *Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas* mailto:fantanas@innocent.com> wrote:

guru shashi wrote: > ... > BTW ... while building openssl ... CPU load always shows 100%. > > #powersave -rT > Thermal Device no. 0: > Temperature: 68 > Critical: 97 > Passive: 93 > 1600.048706 MHz > > Is there anyways I could opt my fan to keep runnin ... all time? > This isn't supported in my bios. > > Best Regards, > Guru > > In order to make valid comparisons, we should also note the ambient temperature. The fans cannot cool to below ambient. My AMD64 is 2.2 GHz. When it runs at 800 MHz, this is what I get at an ambient temperature of 25°C:

gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 37 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 797.938721 MHz

Since I have not resolved the java issue with my OpenOffice, which puts a lot of load on the CPU, I used it as a means to get the CPU to run at 1.8 GHz and even 2.2 GHz for a while. This is what I get then:

gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 61 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 2194.327637 MHz

You can find files with fan settings and other parameters relating to thermal management in the directory '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM'. Since your BIOS may be controlling most of these settings, I don't know which of them would have any impact if set by the user --if they can be written to. Nonetheless, they may give you a better idea of how your system works.

CF

-- Running 64-bit Linux on AMD64

-- Check the List-Unsubscribe header to unsubscribe For additional commands, email: suse-amd64-help@suse.com mailto:suse-amd64-help@suse.com

-- Best Regardz, Guru

-- Running 64-bit Linux on AMD64

guru shashi

11 Mar 11 Mar

11:46

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

Hi there, I am running Suse10 (x86_64) too ... with the default kernel (2.6.13-15). linux:~ # cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM/* <setting not supported> cooling mode: passive polling frequency: 2 seconds state: ok temperature: 50 C critical (S5): 97 C passive: 93 C: tc1=2 tc2=3 tsp=40 devices=0xffff81001bee9580 In the mean time I finally fixed the broken dsdt on laptop was really glad to see the battery status on my laptop. But still get some kinda ... "Warnings". Has anyone encountered these ........... Really appriciate if someone could educate me on these and give me some pointers. Also included the dmesg output ........ Best Regarx, Guru ========================== linux:~ # dmesg | grep -i acpi BIOS-e820: 000000001bef0000 - 000000001befa000 (ACPI data) BIOS-e820: 000000001befa000 - 000000001bf00000 (ACPI NVS) ACPI: RSDP (v000 PTLTD ) @ 0x00000000000f7f60 ACPI: RSDT (v001 PTLTD RSDT 0x06040000 LTP 0x00000000) @ 0x000000001bef61be ACPI: FADT (v001 SiS 755F 0x06040000 PTL 0x000f4240) @ 0x000000001bef9e5f ACPI: SSDT (v001 PTLTD POWERNOW 0x06040000 LTP 0x00000001) @ 0x000000001bef9ed3 ACPI: MADT (v001 PTLTD APIC 0x06040000 LTP 0x00000000) @ 0x000000001bef9f88 ACPI: BOOT (v001 PTLTD $SBFTBL$ 0x06040000 LTP 0x00000001) @ 0x000000001bef9fd8 ACPI: DSDT (v001 PTLTD 755 0x06040000 MSFT 0x0100000e) @ 0x0000000000000000 ACPI: PM-Timer IO Port: 0x8008 ACPI: Local APIC address 0xfee00000 ACPI: LAPIC (acpi_id[0x00] lapic_id[0x00] enabled) ACPI: LAPIC_NMI (acpi_id[0x00] high edge lint[0x1]) ACPI: IOAPIC (id[0x01] address[0xfec00000] gsi_base[0]) ACPI: INT_SRC_OVR (bus 0 bus_irq 0 global_irq 2 high edge) ACPI: IRQ0 used by override. ACPI: IRQ2 used by override. ACPI: IRQ11 used by override. Using ACPI (MADT) for SMP configuration information ACPI: Looking for DSDT in initramfs... found /DSDT.aml ... successfully read 13975 bytes from /DSDT.aml ACPI: Using customized DSDT ACPI-0306: *** Info: Table [DSDT] replaced by host OS ACPI: bus type pci registered ACPI: Subsystem revision 20050408 ACPI: Interpreter enabled ACPI: Using IOAPIC for interrupt routing ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (0000:00) ACPI: Assume root bridge [\_SB_.PCI0] segment is 0 ACPI: PCI Interrupt Routing Table [\_SB_.PCI0._PRT] ACPI: Embedded Controller [EC0] (gpe 25) ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] (IRQs 3 4 5 *7 9 10 11) ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKB] (IRQs 3 *4 5 7 9 10 11) ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKC] (IRQs 3 4 *5 7 9 10 11) ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKD] (IRQs *3 4 5 7 9 10 11) ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKE] (IRQs 3 4 5 7 *9 10 11) ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKF] (IRQs 3 4 5 7 9 10 *11) ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKG] (IRQs 3 4 5 7 9 10 11) *0, disabled. ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKH] (IRQs 3 4 5 7 9 *10 11) PCI: Using ACPI for IRQ routing ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:06.0[A] -> GSI 19 (level, low) -> IRQ 169 ACPI-0212: *** Warning: Device is not power manageable ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:02.6[C] -> GSI 18 (level, low) -> IRQ 177 ACPI: PCI interrupt for device 0000:00:02.6 disabled ACPI wakeup devices: ACPI: (supports S0 S3 S4 S5) ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:02.5[A] -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 185 ACPI: CPU0 (power states: C1[C1] C2[C2] C3[C3]) ACPI: Thermal Zone [THRM] (56 C) ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:0b.0[A] -> GSI 17 (level, low) -> IRQ 193 ACPI: AC Adapter [ACAD] (on-line) ACPI: Battery Slot [BAT1] (battery present) ACPI: Power Button (FF) [PWRF] ACPI: Lid Switch [LID] ACPI: Power Button (CM) [PWRB] ACPI: Sleep Button (CM) [SLPB] ACPI-1048: *** Warning: Failed to acquire semaphore[ffff81001beee6c0|1|0], AE_TIME ========================= On 3/10/06, Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas wrote:

...

Which version of SuSE are you running? I am running 10.0, with kernel 2.6.14. As I said, the files of interest are in the directory '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM/', but not all of them can be written to. The directory '/proc/acpi/fan' is empty on my system.

If the fan trip points are controlled by the BIOS (and in my system they seem to be), you probably won't be able to change them. After all, if you were able to change them and placed the wrong values, your nice laptop could go up in smoke --literally! Furthermore, if the ambient temperature is too high, radiative cooling may not be enough, so the fans will HAVE to run all the time. BTW, I tried editing the '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM/trip_points' file with vim (as root), but after the write vim warned me that the file I was editing on the screen no longer matched the file on disk or something like that (which should not happen with a normal file). I read the SuSE 9.3 manual (the last big manual in print as they went to all electronic 10.0); it clearly states that most of the values in these files are for information as the BIOS controls most, if not all, of them.

That is all I know. Maybe the kernel experts here have better answers for you. After my initial adventures with overheating, HP replaced my 64-bit laptop and the one they gave me seems to run very cool.

CF

guru shashi wrote:

...
Hii

Here are the details you asked for:- Could not find the fan config details ... says as not such files of directory.

#cat /proc/acpi/fan/*/* cat: /proc/acpi/fan/*/*: No such file or directory

# cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/*/* <setting not supported> cooling mode: passive polling frequency: 2 seconds state: ok temperature: 52 C critical (S5): 97 C passive: 93 C: tc1=2 tc2=3 tsp=40 devices=0xffff81001bee9b80

Thanks Guru

On 3/10/06, *Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas* mailto:fantanas@innocent.com> wrote:

guru shashi wrote: > ... > BTW ... while building openssl ... CPU load always shows 100%. > > #powersave -rT > Thermal Device no. 0: > Temperature: 68 > Critical: 97 > Passive: 93 > 1600.048706 MHz > > Is there anyways I could opt my fan to keep runnin ... all time? > This isn't supported in my bios. > > Best Regards, > Guru > > In order to make valid comparisons, we should also note the ambient temperature. The fans cannot cool to below ambient. My AMD64 is 2.2 GHz. When it runs at 800 MHz, this is what I get at an ambient temperature of 25°C:

gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 37 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 797.938721 MHz

Since I have not resolved the java issue with my OpenOffice, which puts a lot of load on the CPU, I used it as a means to get the CPU to run at 1.8 GHz and even 2.2 GHz for a while. This is what I get then:

gus@presario:~> powersave -rT Thermal Device no. 0: Temperature: 61 Critical: 90 Passive: 88 2194.327637 MHz

You can find files with fan settings and other parameters relating to thermal management in the directory '/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM'. Since your BIOS may be controlling most of these settings, I don't know which of them would have any impact if set by the user --if they can be written to. Nonetheless, they may give you a better idea of how your system works.

CF

-- Running 64-bit Linux on AMD64

-- Check the List-Unsubscribe header to unsubscribe For additional commands, email: suse-amd64-help@suse.com mailto:suse-amd64-help@suse.com

-- Best Regardz, Guru

-- Running 64-bit Linux on AMD64

-- Best Regardz, Guru

Colin Carter

9 Mar 9 Mar

10:40

New subject: [suse-amd64] amd64 Overheating on Suse 10 64 bit

I believe that AMD chips do not go into idle mode as readily as Intel. When I was running XP I had a small program which kicked it into idle, thus reducing the operating temperature from 50 to about 35. Sorry, but I am now running Linux and have zero problems (even in Australia). Colin On Thursday 09 March 2006 00:05, guru shashi wrote:

...

Hello,

I have been using suse10 an acer amd64, turion laptop.

Until recently not noticed that my laptop getting over heated. I am running an Suse 10.0 64-bit version on the box. Has anyone identified/noticed if things work better on 32-bit versions or the previous versions running on 64bit box. I am quite perplexed and helpless with this. Also the fan doesn't seem to run all the time (though when plugged in or when on powersave ) ... also just goes on and off during recharge.

and i never run it for a strech of more than 4 to 6 hours.

All suggestions are welcome.

-- Thanx ... Guru

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Colin Carter
Constantine 'Gus' Fantanas
guru shashi
Manuel Soriano
Norm Mackey