Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (856 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] interesting reading about systemd
On 3 October 2016 at 10:09, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Choice is really what a lot of people want. We have different
distros, different DEs(KDE vs GNOME and the rest), different
browsers(Firefox vs Chrome), different editors(emacs vs vi), and so
on. Why is it that we can't have a choice in init? Now, I'm aware
that keeping a distro going is a monumental task, and I don't expect
miracles. I'm not asking the devs to fight the river of change now.
I just don't see why we need to let systemd creep over and keep
swallowing other non init services and functions. It's like they are
stacking the deck for their own pet projects - If they create a
dependency on something with systemd, then they take control of the
project. When it is going to become GNU/systemd? Or just
systemdOS?(and hey, if people want that then go for it. There's still
the BSDs and Slackware).

Hell hath frozen over - I'm going to quote a Red Hat developer to reply to you

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html

"If I could only have one thing this year, it would be to eliminate that
meme from the collective consciousness. It is a disease. It strangles
the mind and ensures you can never change anything ever because someone
somewhere has OCD'd their environment exactly how they like it and how
dare you change it on them you're so mean and next time I have friends
over for Buffy night you're not invited mom he's sitting on my side
again.

As a consumer, yes, you have lots of choices in which Linux you use.
This does not mean Linux is in any sense _about_ choice, any more than
because there are so many kinds of cars you can buy that cars are about
choice."

The only choices that matter in opeSUSE are the choices which the
openSUSE community bothers to put together.

If the openSUSE community worked together to support sysvinit as well
as systemd, sure, I'd support that.

But unlike GNOME + KDE, or vi + emacs, or Firefox + Chrome, supporting
2 init systems is a totally different situation

With your other examples, those alternatives co-exist happily with no
effort from either 'side', worst case you need the two sides to get
together and work on shared solutions every once in a while

Supporting two init systems requires a huge amount of work, ESPECIALLY
when that other init system is sysvinit.

EVERY SINGLE SERVICE will need to have a systemd unit file (normally
easy) AND a sysvinit script (normally complicated as heck).
EVERY SINGLE MAINTAINER of EVERY SINGLE SERVICE will need to do extra
work to continue to support sysvinit, and that work is typically
harder than the support required to continue to support systemd

If someone managed to persuade all of our service contributors to do
all of that work, wow, cool, great, but you only need to look at
anti-systemd distributions like Devuan to see that creating a
maintaining a non-systemd distribution in this day and age is a huge
amount of work that will generally keep you far behind modern
developments.. and Devuan have the benefit of not offering choice,
only offering sysvinit, so they have less work to do that your
proposed push for 'choice'.

Linux isn't about choice. openSUSE isn't about choice. It's about
doing things the right way for the modern use cases faced by our
users, built the right way using the modern tools available to our
contributors. Sometimes that means choices present themselves,
sometimes not.

Regards,

Richard Brown
openSUSE Chairman
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