Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (856 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] interesting reading about systemd
On 10/02/2016 05:02 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:
I admin Linux systems and I find using systemd more difficult than
what I am used to.

I've admin'd (and more) something like 40 different versions of *NIX over the
years. Once upon a time I treated SunOS as the 'baseline' or 'reference' and
thought in terms of how the others deviated from that. The SUN changed its os!
And I moved on the AIX as the reference since, in my opinion, the customizations
HP did for HP/US were too deviant to use as a 'baseline', and then when most of
the systems I worked on were PC based I thought of Redhat as the 'baseline'.
Now I've been using openSuse for so long I consider that to be my reference.

And so it goes.
Times change, and I've changed with them :-)

And lets not forget that many of the distributions had a development and a
stable production version. Redhat was like that with their 'Enterprise' level
(RHEL) and 'Fedora;, the FOSS/development side. Until recently we had OpenSuse
and SLES/SLED.

The OpenSuse/Fedora were recognized to be a community development edition and
potentially unstable, certainly not for the likes of Wall Street or
Government/Military!


I don't find it better, so where is the advantage?

There's a great deal of subjectivity here.
Systemd can do many things that sysv-init can't, as I've mentioned elsewhere,
which may or may not be relevant to specific individuals, such as multi-seat
management, cgroup stuff that impacts things like Docker, SELinux integration
and more. It may be that systemd has advantages to you that you haven't
explored (yet, as is the case for me, Docker is my agenda but not yet ...).



Further, I see no advantage for using systemd on a server at all.

Perhaps you should read up some of Pottering's articles on that issue.
Things like cgroup management, quota management and more are certainly relevant
to some server use-cases.

It may be that at some time in the future you may need or benefit from some of
the things that systemd can do.

This echoes of the KDE4 changeover where people who had issues with it
were told to get over it. That no one wanted to hear what we had to
say and that KDE4 was the way forward.

That's not entirely fair for a couple of reasons.
leaving aside, for the moment, the 'asshole-ness' aspects, of dumping KDE4
MASSIVELY unfinished (up until .12 in my opinion!), lets not forget that this is
FOSS, and end users get to do not just the beta testing but the Alpha testing
to!

From my PoV, "KDE5" did slightly better, working out as an alternative install
from the 13.2 days before being the norm in Leap42. But from my PoV, and what I
see reported on this forum, 42.1 was beta and still beta when 42.2 came out.
Perhaps not as problematic as KDE4, but not 'Production Quality" as I expect.

My big complaint about the way systemd was initially presented was that some
distributions (you know who I'm thinking of!) forced it on *all* users as the
*only* version of their Linux, rather than in parallel with a sysv-init version.
I think that there should have been an 'optional'/experimental' distribution
available that people who wanted to try a potentially unstable, incompletely
implanted version. We had a similar issue with BtrFS, but there you could
install your RootFS with ext4FS.

Any 'new' software is, almost by definition, incomplete. It takes time to do
the conversion of old facilities and to write the new stuff. And yes it has to
be tested by someone outside the development group. But when the distributors
make the incomplete, experimental code their normal release and offer no
alternative of course people are going to be unhappy! Of course systemd gained
a bad reputation. That we still talk of the disaster that was the release of
KDE4 is indicative of how the negatives stay with us even when the problems have
been overcome.


--
A: Yes.
> Q: Are you sure?
>> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

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