Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (911 mails)

< Previous Next >
[opensuse] Re: The Post that got Carlos ER Banded !!

Looks like this somehow ended up in my mbox, but was
intended for the list... so, as one who has been
wrongfully banned from groups, thought I'd pass
it on.

FWIW, note that many of the participants are in different
countries and may have been brought up with very different
views about expectations about 'correct' behavior. Really
doesn't seem very tolerant for an international list to
exact such penalties in such subjective & arbitrary cases.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [opensuse] The Post that got Carlos ER Banded !!
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 16:11:26 +0100
References: <20151225230454.GA14689@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> <20151225230613.GB14689@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<20151225231732.GW3618@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> <567DD022.1000904@xxxxxxxxxx>
<CAA0b23xJY=S1payYVyN04oLB8zfvJykfw9VaFXLp45TXTdNfjQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

On 2015-12-26 11:08, Richard Brown wrote:
On 25 December 2015 at 23:24, Ruben Safir <> wrote:
On 12/25/2015 06:17 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
What about not attacking people, behaving like an adult and not lying
and if you really want, than pickup the right mail? Constant spreading
of FUD across various mailing lists was one of the reasons for Carlos
ban.

Michael, I was never spreading FUD. In the worst case, that's a matter
of opinion, thus I was banned for expressing my opinions.

Like now, I can not defend myself from what I feel are public attacks
by Richard and others. Perhaps someone can repost this to the mail list.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html


in your sick mind you think that was worthy of a ban.

Your nuts.

Honestly.

A ban is supposed to correct behaviour. Well, as I have never understood
what I did wrong, I can not correct my behaviour. And three months is
excesive.




Honestly, conducting yourself in accordance with our guiding
principles ( https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles )
would be a lot productive. Please calm down, review the link, and lets
discuss anything which needs to be discussed in a respectful, adult,
way, please?

The guiding principles only apply to Members. Not to other users or
contributors.

Because members have accepted them voluntarily. Imposing the code on
others is an imposition.


As both I and now Michal have explained, there was not one post or
incident that triggered Carlos' ban

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html was
the final straw after a long string of issues on the -project,
-factory, and -translation mailinglists

I apologized for that single post.
The rest are false accusations.



I'll try to tackle this chronologically, but as this was a long drawn
out affair I apologise in advance with anything I get muddled

I think the first incident of relevance to this topic is the fact that
Carlos was banned from forums.opensuse.org for repeatedly instigating
& participating in unproductive discussions and arguments, including
arguments with the admin staff of the forums. I do not have links to
share on that as I was not personally a witness, but one of our admins
posted about it here (in a thread which I will refer to more later):
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00806.html

About the web forum. Many people liked me (they have a method to
quantify that). I posted something like 20000 posts, although the
counter there says now something like 16. Only the web staff, and
perhaps a few others, thought differently. About arguing with
moderators: due to my mode of access (nntp) I can not distinguish who is
a moderator, and even less, when he is acting as moderator, and not as
another user.

After the forum ban, I decided that it was impossible to interact with
the forum without angering the staff somehow (impossible to me), and I
decided not to come back, and return to more tolerant waters. That I
thought.



--

One major incident (that included a number of examples which
contributed to the ban) was the situation with translations

This story is long and complicated, so for the sake of clarity and in
the hope of putting this topic to bed I will do my best to summarise
it here

With the increased focused on Tumbleweed, and the fundamental changes
to how Leap was being put together, it was clear that the previous
tools, processes, and methods of our translation teams were no longer
up to the job

Or, to put it another way, Tumbleweed and Leap wasn't being translated
at all. Carlos actually did a very good job of raising this concern
some weeks before -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-09/msg00777.html

Some years ago, there was an effort by a number of contributors to
implement 'Weblate' as a translation tool for openSUSE. It had some
support from some translators, and significant support from developers
across the project (as it was better aligned with the tooling and
processes they were using, eg. git - therefore making it easier for
them to contribute also). However there was vocal objection to it from
some of our existing translators, including Carlos

Rather from the majority of the translators.

Have a look at this post, from another person, it explains very well the
issues:

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-10/msg00057.html

ie, it was not me attacking fellow contributors, as you say in my ban
order. It was other contributors attacking translators, and that is
fine. We are lesser contributors. We "don't do it"-


With both Tumbleweed and Leap translations paralysed by a lack of
translations, a number of contributors took it upon themselves to
implement Weblate and, as a proof of concept, went ahead and relocated
some of the files requiring translation to Weblate

The non translation of TW is intentional. Many translators consider it
impossible to do, no matter what technical means are provided.
Translators typically prefer to translate only the stable releases, not
the betas.

The problem with Leap is lack of resources on some key positions. Not a
translator problem/issue.

And many of those files moved to weblate are still untranslated for
Leap. Have a look at the Spanish release notes - and there are about
half a dozen translators, so don't point at me.

...


openSUSE is a Project that exists only because of its volunteer
contributions. Having individuals criticising and attempting to block
contributions needlessly is a toxic behaviour which dramatically
impedes the productivity of our project. So in this case, I still feel
Carlos was greatly in the wrong. I was also dreadfully concerned by
his prevalent 'us vs them' attitude, which I posted about
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00131.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00082.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00051.html

It is your doing. You can see it in this thread, too.


The whole sordid mess somewhat died down when people actually started
using Weblate to translate parts of Leap, but Carlos' mindset and
behaviour with that topic is important to keep in mind if you want to
understand the Board's collective decision making process.

That's a matter of opinion. I see it as a some developers and staff
destroying the work of translators. As proven. Leap is not translated.

Is this open? You are shutting up by force those that dissent with you!
You have proven it here.



--

A separate long, ongoing issue with Carlos on the factory mailinglist
was what is now being described as the production of 'noise'.
opensuse-factory is by definition and design a 'working' mailinglist,
intended to productive discussions relevant to the development of the
openSUSE distributions. Noise (off topic posts or posts with little or
no content) ends up being junk which every developer has to sift
through in order to conduct their regular contributions to openSUSE.
Carlos has a well deserved reputation for being a huge source of such
noise. He would regularly post short responses like "Yup" "I agree"
and such - the kind of thing which might have a place in an
opensuse-chat mailinglist or perhaps even this opensuse@ support list,
but in a list where we're meant to be discussing the development of
our distributions, it was quite an annoyance. Also, even the more
substantial posts he did provide, often conveyed a very strong 'I'm
not a developer but you should do what I say' attitude..the kind of
'us vs them' attitude which raised it's ugly head during the
translation issue.


Factory list being a list for developers only list is a recent idea from
you. And you have enforced it. Henne had to change the official
definition very recently, a week or two ago.

For decades factory mail list has the place where _users_ testing the
Beta version talked. People asking such questions on the standard mail
lists were told always to go away. This is a fact, which you can verify
yourself.


I posted one mail per issue because that's what the forum staff
enforced. I thought that it would be a good idea on the mail list, too.
It was never intended as any kind of agression, but as a method to make
things easier for all. It is more difficult for me.

A "me too" post is standard response in mail lists. It shows that more
people see the issue, that it is not a single occurrence.




In small doses, none of these issues would be worth mentioning, but
you have to consider that Carlos's prolific posting rate (one of the
reasons he clearly is so popular here) meant that he was single
handedly responsible for a huge percentage of the -factory mailinglist
traffic. An avowed non-developer, producing 10%+ of all the traffic on
the 800+ subscriber openSUSE development mailinglist is, no matter how
well meaning, a nuisance, especially when most of those posts are
easily classified as 'noise' and not helpful to the development of the
openSUSE distributions.

That's your opinion. The factory mail list has always been subject to
that traffic, from many people, during beta phases.


For example, Carlos regularly would post off topic, bug-report like
posts, such as http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00028.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00045.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00047.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00049.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00062.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00063.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00454.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00679.html

See explanation above.



And I'm sure there are more examples, I just don't want to spend hours
writing this mail.

On multiple occasions Carlos was informed to file bugs in bugzilla,
where bugs are meant to be reported.
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00045.html but
the bug-like reports continued.

As told to you often, this is done to ease jobs on bugzilla. First
comment on issues, then report in bugzilla if it is a real issue. Or
next, you will complain of noise in bugzila.



In the end, the patience of other contributors started to fray, as
clearly visible in this post from Martin -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00688.html

Carlos responded in what, sadly, a typically argumentative way,
incorrectly declaring the purpose of the factory mailinglist (it is,
and will likely always be, the projects main development list) -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00693.html

False. This is true only now, because you have forced it this way.


At this point, Andrew Wafaa from the openSUSE Board provided Carlos
with a final warning, summarising the concerns we had regarding his
behaviour - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00709.html

He responded in an argumentative manner..
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00723.html

Because it was all false. Can I not defend myself?


The thread bounced around a bit while people less aware of Carlos'
behaviour asked questions. This led to Jim's explanation from the
Forum admins team -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00806.html and
Andrew from the Board -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00745.html


Web issues do not apply here.


It also included posts much like this one from me (just a lot shorter)
citing more examples of behaviour which the Board considered -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00776.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00781.html

Proven false.


I also tried again to reason with Carlos and better explain the scope
and scale of the Boards concerns -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00877.html

And despite a bit of back and forth discussion even after that point,
the end result was that everyone moved on, and Carlos continued
posting, and for a while everything actually seemed to be going well.
For the time immediately after the Boards final warning, I would
personally categorise Carlos' posts, manner, attitude, all being
dramatically improved, as if he had taken on board the feedback from
the Board. There was one or two posts which I felt might have walked
'upto the line' of what is acceptable, but the line wasn't crossed,
and so I was quite pleased and hopeful.

And then Carlos posted
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html which

For this one I apologized.
That's the only posts where I was out of line. A single post.



--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


< Previous Next >
Follow Ups