Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (982 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] Getting rid of systemd and putting sysv back
Well Anton,

Indeed I do understand them both and the other sides.
It can be very frustrating to build a system based on software which was not tested very deeply.
It's kind of living on the edge between working and not-working and still offer services.

I can just imagine to myself the carpenter going to the near store looking for a hammer and then he finds out a comment near the shelf which states: "These hammers was not tested and might not satisfy your needs or anyone else needs."

This is one angle which many open-source projects need to deal with by choice or not.

This is one of the reasons that SUSE, REDHAT and couple others invest so much in an enterprise level products.

Sometimes in my past I have found myself in mid-air looking for a way to deal with an issue(not only open-source) which no-one, not the developer, vendor or anyone else wanted to help with.
And I'm not just talking about funding issues but just the plain will to not get into the old code.
Others were just happy with their product and didn't care about the bugs.

I am still young and can learn but while I can try my bests to learn and understand new things it's unreal to let a 40+ years old man\women in the IT field to learn everything from 0 every couple years.

This is why standards are written and why a change should consider all sort of things.

Even now that I am learning to some exam I found myself looking at real questions which used to have the right answer in 2013 but now (2014) another answer would be right.
So learning a few month based on current knowledge led to the point which I cannot be sure about the true answer.
It's frustrating and it seems that the exam is using the valid answer for 2013 and not 2014, how weird is it?

For now the only thing I can offer is to try and help those in a need if I can while one issue for me is funding which I cannot offer.

Specifically regarding systemd:
I do not like to be forced to first learn for 5-8 years how to manage systems, write scripts and then in a very fast transit to just move into another way of handling things.
The employees and the world should consider that like in many areas there is a need for a transit\change period to embed the new ideas.
Writing a wiki or a man page will not help with the issue for everybody and not just because of the language.
As we all know there is a method of learning that is individually right for each and every user\admin.

For some a chat will help in the process even if the wiki is describing everything that is needed.
Guidance is one of the things that can help the individual.

There are issues about funding all the options and it's much simpler to write a wiki or a man page and redirect every user\admin to it.

Again I cannot offer too much about it since I need to eat and sleep under a rooftop which forces me to the realities of life in the humans world on earth.

For example I have released in the past couple very complex scripts but got nothing for it..
If I would have gotten even couple cents every time I helped someone with open-source software I am pretty sure it would cover couple month paychecks.

So ignoring from some email might be a good idea!

All The Bests,

On 09/28/2014 04:17 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/28/2014 08:44 AM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:

What is the issue?
If you have a specific issue we can maybe understand how to help you.
Note that sysV scripts are supported by systemd.

The issue is not about the technology, technique or implementation, it
is purely emotional.
That is why people like aaron-as-dirk are using abusive language and
threatening the kind of violence we associate with terrorists.

People who have a rational basis for their argument argue from that
basis. People that resort to violence have given up on rational argument.

At one time there was, as with Linux itself, those of us in the days
before releases with numbers greater than zero the the left of the
decimal point might recall, systemd, like KDE4 and like KDE3 before it
and like just about every other major, non-trivial piece of software,
underwent development pangs. What differentiates FOSS from commercial
software is that commercial software can pay for aggressive testing
before its exposed to public scrutiny. Even so, mistakes happen, as we
have just seen with Apple iOS.

The thing is that while Apple iOS 8.0.1 was bungled
people are going to forget about it in a while despite this seeming to
be a systemic problem with Apple software. And like Microsoft, Apple
isn't interested in supporting or allowing people to make use of earlier

FOSS, though, depends on the user community much more than commercial
software. Microsoft and Apple and others may release Alpha and Beta
version to a select community, but it is a select community that they
have control over, and not every gung-ho enthusiast who wants to show
off breaking things.

This is good and bad; any review of formal testing procedures will make
that clear. The FOSS approach is less formal, less methodological and
can omit many use-cases, but then again it may also deal with some oddities.

The main problem with the FOSS approach to this kind of development and
testing, the 'release early, release often', is that the Internet
Doesn't Forget. So every blog that complains about problems with the
0.05 revision stays around even though the current is >2.x. It takes a
flood of later comments to percolate to the top of the Google search
list to drown that out.

So yes, there is a lot of "Yes It Used To Be, But We Changed All That"
about FOSS development. The complaints about systemd, KDE4 and so much
more were all valid once. But to keep harping on about stuff that has
long been addressed in an effort to denigrate the present is pathetic
and shows how ill informed and emotional the critics are.

Especially when ther are always new and interesting bugs to be discussed :-)

So, on the one hand we have aaron-as-dirk who has nothing to offer
except foaming at the mouth and advocating a terrorist strike on some of
the programmers involved with systemd, and on the other we have ms Walsh
who runs a heavily non-standard system way out there on the fringe
use-case whose complaints are often ignored because her setup is so
non-standard. We do the Linux community a great dis-service if we
ignore her.

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