Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1239 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] RE: Stability of systemd
On 6/16/2013 7:23 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Bruce Ferrell said the following on 06/16/2013 09:51 AM:

When a system that worked perfectly WITHOUT systemd has to be booted
3 time to get it to come up WITH systemd and no means of determining
why, I wouldn't call it a "corner case". In my opinion (and I've been
using Linux since '93), I'd say it's unstable, unreliable and nowhere
near ready for release.

Only 93? About 20 years after I started with UNIX ...

So you started long after USG introduced the model we now call sysvinit in
the early 1980s and didn't see the unholy mess they made of it,
nor their re-working of things that Denis, Rob and many others had working
just fine since the V7 days and and were rock solid in UNIX 8,
which was internal to Bell Labs. You didn't see the arguments that people
like Bill Joy had with them and why BSD and eventually SUN went
in a different direction - and became a 'reference standard' for many
developers and why the BSD model is still considered more secure
(meaning stable, has integrity, flaw-free, not just 'hacker proof').

I've had USG UNIX not work in more cases than I care to think about.

Originally DG/UX was fully compliant, but if you tried booting it with a
small change to your hardware then it did strange things. Once I
had the boot lock up and CPU overheat. Then I found that the device drivers
weren't detecting end of media - not just the tape and floppy
but the hard drive as well. If you did a 'dd' to a partition it would keep
writing past the end of the partition. It took a lot to
convince DG support that they had a bug. I'd been a kernel developer once
and knew disk drivers well and when I described in detail what
was wrong they accused me of - somehow - pirating their code. The USG
distribution was a real mess and not everyone had the smarts to or
the time to or the money to fix all its idiocies.

So why am I using Linux rather then BSD? Because of systemd!

While the concepts may be laudable, the implementation needs more
careful thought... And THAT seems to be missing.

How come it works so easily for me?
Because I'm willing to adapt and learn and find out they WHY when things don'
go the way I expect. All to often the 'don't go the way I
expect' say more about my expectations than any flaw in the code.

The thing is, I suspect, that I'm wiling to accept that Lennart and Cristian
are smarter than me, a lot smarter, and I'm willing to accept
their way and learn from them rather than insist that my way is the right
way. I've seen to many changes in *NIX over the years and its
been a proving ground for many great ideas, which is one reason it has come
to dominate despite the lack of Big Advertising behind it.

I subscribe to [systemd-devl] and I do see that a lot of careful thought and
testing is going into development.

I base what I say on evidence not prejudice.

Seriously Anton, an offhand phrase in a post does not require
burdening the list with your chest thumping personal history.
Where you've been, and what you've done (regardless of how God-Like) does not
help the rest of us.

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