Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (3893 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] SUSE repository
  • From: Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:09:07 +0100
  • Message-id: <459A5973.9030202@xxxxxxxxx>
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jdd wrote:
> Pascal Bleser wrote:
>> You don't know about smart, so why are you giving your opinion anyway.
>
> because for me SuSE = Yast and I wont change that. I also have seen
> bugreports for smart, there are also other systems (bare rpm, apt...)
> smart is only _your_ choice

Sure. And given my experience, it's what I recommend on 10.1
On 10.2, use either the zypp backend or smart, as you prefer.
Personally, I stick with smart because I like it better than yast2/zypp
or zypper, but the zypp backend works fine on 10.2 (as on 10.1, but even
more so on 10.2).

>> Zen being "in the main Novell product" doesn't mean we can't fix it.
>
> fix it in the meaning of making it better, for sure, it's needed.
> Replacing it by an other product when it's the core product of our only
> sponsor is probably not a choice (I attended a SLES/SLED conference,
> half of the time was about the hole Zen suite)

Replace it with the zypp backend, definitely.

Don't attend SLED/SLES marketing conferences, spend time with the people
who use openSUSE.
Since when is this novell-marketing-dept@xxxxxxxxxxxx ?

Zen gives you no advantage on openSUSE unless you already bought
Zenworks to manage your park of workstations/servers.
It only gives headaches. Lots of them.

>> And, as I wrote above, the ZMD backend will always be broken as it is by
>> design.
>
> what is mainstream is the zen suite. I presume that it's updater can
> (and hopefully will) evolve. I don't say it's perfect, but switching for
> an entirely different system is for me exactly like switching for red
> hat, debian or mandrake.

How is zen any "mainstream" ? It's broken and it is broken by design
because the integration architecture with yast is sick.

Use the zypp backend, don't use ZMD.
And let's push for zypp being the default yast2 package manager backend
on 10.3.

> anyway, my personal concern is nor zen but YaST. Is there where a YaST
> smart module, situation would be entirely different, but is it to be any?

Ridiculous. Whatever your religious sales belief or your loyalty to
Novell's SLED marketing powerpoint slides are, using smart on 10.1 is
about having a package manager that *works*.

>> It involves using a lot more resources, a misbehaving daemon that takes
>> a lot of CPU and RAM, duplicating repository metadata between yast and
>> ZMD, ...
>
> I know all the problems, this costed me one hour in a year... but why
> not working to fix them inspite of forking?

Fork ZMD ? yast2 ? You gotta be kidding.
Vote to have the zypp-backend as default in yast2 for 10.3, that's what
we should do.

>> Well, it's not "semi official", it's 100% "unofficial", which is the
>> whole point of the opensuse-community.org wiki.
>
> as I understood, opensuse-community.org was to discuss things impossible
> to discuss on opensuse.org. smart is _not_ one of these points. the
> simple "opensuse-community" wording means this represents the hole
> opensuse community (without "-"), isn't it?

Why isn't smart one of them ?
If it wasn't for smart, at least half of the people who tried 10.1 would
have dropped SUSE and never look back.

And as *active*, committed community members who help lots of people to
use SUSE on IRC every single day, if we want to put a page about setting
up smart and recommend using smart on 10.1 because we saved lots of
people from the ZMD mess, then we just do so.

That has been the best and most helpful approach on 10.1 from our
experience.

On 10.2, it's a different story because the zypp backend works well.
If you prefer smart, use smart. If you prefer apt, use apt (although
it's not biarch-capable). If you prefer yum, use yum. And if you like
yast2, use yast2 with the zypp backend.

The latter actually being what we explain and recommend, here:
http://opensuse-community.org/Package_Sources/10.2

And yes, the first section recommends and explains how to remove ZMD in
order to use the zypp backend.

> if the opensuse-community wiki was to take such direction like your
> smart switch, I would definitively tag is unrecommended.

Oh really. I wonder what makes you think you've got a better clue than
me wrt package managers, problems people ask for help on IRC and the
technical architecture of the ZMD backend in yast2.

> smart is _a_ choice, yours. this is nice as long as you don't advertise
> it as the only choice

*gasp* I never "advertised it as being the only choice" but
1) definitely remove ZMD, whatever you use, just remove ZMD
2) *recommended* using smart on 10.1 -- if you want to stick with yast2,
use the zypp backend

http://opensuse-community.org/Package_Sources/10.1
"Sources here can either be added using YaST, or by using the rug
command-line tool, or thirdly by using the excellent Smart package
manager. Since there were problems with ZMD (of which rug is the
command-line tool) we recommend that you use the Smart Package Manager,
instead of YaST and rug."

- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\ <pascal.bleser@xxxxxxxxx> <guru@xxxxxxxxxxx>
_\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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