Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (5130 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] Re: packagemanagement in 10.1
  • From: Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:37:53 +0200
  • Message-id: <44787251.8050705@xxxxxxxxx>
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HG wrote:
> On 5/26/06, Martin Schlander <suse@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> fredag 26 maj 2006 11:28 skrev HG:
>> > Yes,there are many people that know other mechanisms could be used -
>> > but many dare not even try. Why? Because nobody knows if it will break
>> > the distribution or not. (Yes, I'm one of these...) It is totally
>> > unclear what happens if one uses apt-get to update SUSE. Does the YaST
>> > package management work correctly after that? Do the security updates
>> > work anymore?

>> Unless I'm mistaken Apt is not included on 10.1 - but Smart is - or
>> Yum. You can use these other rpm-frontends - and it won't cause
>> problems with yast/zen/rug. Of course if you install unsupported
>> packages with Smart it will affect security updates - but that's it.
>> Now that the security updates are fed via a normal repo you can also
>> install the official security updates with Smart for example.
>> And please keep in mind this list is for community discussions.
>> Technical questions about released versions belong on
>> suse-linux-e@xxxxxxxx

> About this list being about the community... I did not ask help in
> regards of the package management (though I need it). I was pointing
> out that the OpenSUSE community can not hide behind "linux is about
> choices" mantra. SUSE needs to clear out the package management mess.
> And the way to do that is pick one - and make it work - and make that
> the default that is in YaST.

(no top-postings please)

Just to make a few things clear:

1) No one is "hiding" behind "Linux is about choices", I wonder what in
Martin's reply makes you feel like we would.

2) The problems with the YaST2/zypp/ZMD package management in 10.1 is
now very clear to everyone and it's being worked on, actively.
Note that we are fully aware of those issues, it's a very uncomfortable
situation to say the least, but we've been able to get a few things
rolling and, as said, it's being tackled by the SUSE team and we,
community, help as much as we can with testing, filing bug reports,
giving feedback, etc...
Hopefully it will be solved soon, but it will take some development work.

3) Until the major issues are solved, there are a few alternatives to
YaST2/zypp/ZMD you can use on SUSE Linux 10.1 (and older versions).
If you want something that works well, now, use those.
Martin gave a few of the options.
Let me summarize again (and note that all of those are included with SL
10.1, either on the media or on the FTP tree):

- - yum: I wouldn't recommend using yum, it's not the most stable and
(dare I say) apt package manager at the moment (I really wonder how the
Fedora users can live with it)

- - apt-rpm: while some people report bad experiences with it (corrupt RPM
database), I personally never had issues with it (but I've been using
smart since some time now) and it seems that it's being actively
maintained and developed again, and even supports RPM-MD (yum)
repositories in its latest versions (though that's not the one shipped
on the 10.1 FTP tree)

- - y2pmsh: that tool is developed by the SUSE team and has been shipped
with SUSE Linux since 9.1: it's a CLI/shell front-end to the YaST2
Package Management engine. The interesting thing here, is that it has
not been ported to zypp/ZMD, which means that it is still using the
"old" YaST2 package management engine, and it works well.

- - smart: last but not least, what seems to be the current "rising star"
of package management. It's a 99% Python application (99% because it
depends on rpm-python) that has a CLI, shell and GUI frontend (similar
to aptitude) that most certainly has the best resolver engine and is
particularly smart (eh) at solving upgrades, dependencies, downgrades,
etc...
Personally, I would recommend smart, as it is being used by a lot of
SUSE users now, who are very happy with it.
For more information about smart:
http://smartpm.org/
http://spinink.net/2006/05/20/installing-smart-package-manager/
And you might consider using my smart RPMs that come preinstalled with
all the channels and mirrors you'd need:
http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/rpm-navigation.php?cat=System/smart/

So, to summarize, I'd say go with smart or y2pmsh (though I personally
have nothing against apt-rpm - Richard is a big fan of it, maybe you'd
like to make a case for it ;)).

Now, all of those are actually package management "frontends", because
they all rely on rpm or librpm to do the real low-level work, none of
them is bypassing it. That means you can use any of them or even "mix"
them (install something with y2pmsh, then upgrade it with smart, etc...).

All of that being said, the community and the SUSE team is not "hiding"
behind those alternatives.
The problems with YaST2/zypp/ZMD in 10.1 have been identified, been made
clear to everyone and we're working on it.

Of course, SUSE Linux must have a default package manager (YaST2) that
works flawlessly.

cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\ <pascal.bleser@xxxxxxxxx> <guru@xxxxxxxxxxx>
_\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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