Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (4053 mails)

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Re: [SLE] critisism toward SuSE 7.2
  • From: "Craig Sampson" <craig@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 10:28:27 +0800
  • Message-id: <20010808022506.4EC0BE6544@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>The linux-box does not work properly with 2.4.5-4G kernel.. The
>line keeps
>coming down randomly..

I know what you're saying. If you've come to Linux late you'll be
used to kernel 2.2.x - the last few revisions of this kernel have
been as solid as a rock...really, the best ever made for Linux. It
should be no real surprise that in going to a completely new kernel
model things will go pear shaped for a while.

Stick with a mature kernel, something like 2.2.19, its mature,
stable, relatively secure and just .... works

>No help whatsoever.. No manuals tells anything about this kind of
>problem. No
>log reveils even where to look for!

After an initial look at the 2.4.x kernels and distro's that came
with this kernel I've given up. Its not mature and breaks many
existing (previously) stable software packages.

Don't knock yourself out using immature software unless you love
doing this sort of thing.

>Went back to kernel 2.2.19, but then I loose the VPN stuff, and
>that was the
>reason in the first place for me to get SuSE 7.2.

You lose VPN? Hmm. A close associate of mine has had his VPN
running on Debian Linux since kernel 2.2.5 (I think...maybe earlier)
so there are definately VPN possibilities without having to use
kernel 2.4.x

>Now it is useless, waste of money...

In my humble opinion SuSE 7.2 is not a finished production ready
product. Its also my opinion that SuSE have not done themselves any
favours in their clients eyes by releasing such a piece of work.

Whilst the problems are not really SuSE's fault, it -was- their own
decision and noone elses, to release this product before it was
stable and fully tested.

This was not your fault and I can understand if you feel burned by
the experience. Its also particularly nasty because you cant
download and trial the full SuSE ISO as there is none available.
So, it comes down to 'punters luck' which IMHO is unacceptable for a
distribution that purports to be for serious business use.

SuSE 7.1 was slightly better but still buggy enough to not make it
onto any of our production servers. My advice, if you're even
interested at this point in remaining with SuSE, is to download or
ftp install SuSE 6.4 which (IMHO) was ther last stable and business
worthy SuSE product.

>There seems to be NO way to build a desent VPN with 2.2.xx kernel
>lack of TUN/TAP devices, and unable to reach beond a NAT... crap!

I've not done it so I cant help here. I do know for a fact though
(as mentioned above) that it -can- be done if its really that
important to you.

>And I simply don't want to compile a custom kernel for that, start
>and stuff.. it is just too much!

Well, do without then. Really.

>I want the VPN up now, and not spending a week worth of hours just
>to make
>custom system, that after crash is close to impossible to repeat...

Document what you do, then, after this 'crash' you will be able to
easily repeat what you've previously done.

A few days scouring should present you with clear
concise instructions on just how to do what you need to do.

>With M$ it is a very simple task!

This is simply not true. A secure, mature, fully tested VPN is
never a simple task.

>I can not find any solution to read my digital camera FLAS-card
>with the
>USB-reader that came with it. It has been on the market for close
>to 2 year
>now.. Where is the driver??.

What possessed you to buy a USB device? Really? You just cant
expect to buy low end non standard hardware and expect it to work.
You might as well whinge that your Win-modem does not work

The other thing to remember of course is that noone is paid to
develop interfaces to hardware - its done by people such as yourself
who want to use a particular piece of equipment and don't find an
acceptable driver already existing.

If you cannot program such a driver (and I certainly cannot) then
you must make sure that you make some inquiries before buying
anything new - make sure it will work with your operating system and
the available drivers/packages before you buy.

>I can not use vmware, because it is so slow.. I have tried every
>setup that a human can imagine, but it is just too slow.. There is
>no way
>that I can install Linux to spouses machine, because she needs a
>win-bookkeeping software in her work.

I don't understand the problem here? Why do you feel compelled to
install Linux on your spouses computer?

>Linux sound-card support sucks badly! I had to go and buy one that

>Multimedia sucks too! Why can't I just click on the file, and it
>woudl then
>bring up the screen and show it to me...?

Ok. I'm seeing a pattern emerging here. It seems like a lot of the
anger you feel is because the desktop environment is not what you
expect or are used to.

I agree with you!

The Linux desktop, whichever of the many versions of window manager
you choose, is not a mature, fully stable and user friendly place to

Its my humble opinion that no distribution of Linux with any window
manager is currently ready for corporate (or home) desktop use.
They are, without exception either huge (and slow) or buggy or both.

Linux makes a fine 'back end' to any network. As for replacing the
Windows (or Mac) desktop machines....not yet. This is
not to say that Windows is a beautiful product without problems...of
course, we all know this is not true, but its probably the most
generally productive place to be when 'normal' work has to be done.


Millions upon millions of people cant all be wrong. I was exremely
active back in the desktop wars days between Windows and OS/2 - and
I was a keen OS/2 advocate. The truth became clear after several
years clients, my associates and in fact nearly everyone
I dealt with actually preferred the Windows interface. This was
despite a lot of them actually trying OS/2.

Now we are seeing the same thing again with Linux versus Windows.
The Windows user interface is relatively user friendly and the
software available, in general, works well enough for most of us at
a desktop level.

Exchanging this interface for one that is said to be 'better' and
'more stable' (as was the case with OS/2 and is now being said by
Linux lovers) just won't cut it if the users own experience seems to
indicate the contrary.

So, take a deep breath, realise that you'll have to live with
Windows as your user environment for productivity applications and
get on with life.

Right now, you can/should think about replacing your MS based
servers with Linux (just not SuSE 7.1 or 7.2). You will gain a lot
by doing this and Linux in this role, if you choose a distribution
several yards removed from the so called 'cutting edge' is a mature
and stable product.

In a few years it may well come to pass that Linux and the user
environment packages available for it will be mature and friendly
enough for the large bulk of desktop users to take a serious look at

>Always some upgrading and patching and compiling and trying to find
>the SW if
>there is any.. no way!

If you use Linux as a server this type of nightmare will simply go

>Same thing with network cards.. I had several 3c509 cards around,
>but I was
>not able to make them work reliable. Only 2 of them did work, rest
>did not..
>So I had to go out and buy stuff again...

This is odd and I cannot say I've had the same experience with Linux
up until recently with kernel 2.4.x This kernel breaks nearly
everything and mostly drivers!

As you are using SuSE 7.2 this is likely your problem.

>Display cards.. I had to buy an old Matrox G-200 from a friend of
>because Linux did not have desent support for 3d-accelerated card
>that I had.

And this is the same problem as with your USB camera thingy - don't
buy any hardware unless you know for a fact that it works and is
well supported under Linux.

Incidently, Matrox G200's work extremely well under Linux so you
should be very happy.

If you want 3D for Linux (or if you dual boot to Windows) the Matrox
G450's are very fast 2d and 3d cards with excellent driver support
under both Windows and Linux - do yourself a favour and buy one.

>Why are the logs keep filling with all sort of weird and non-
>important stuff
>all the time.. there is almost no way to stop them, except sitting
here night
>after night playing around with setups.. no way!

Don't let it bother you. The logs are looked after by the system
and if you don't like looking at them then don't.

>My x-server keeps also giving me these errors all the time.. It
>works, but
>still it is so annoying when I stop x-server to see screenfulls of
>warnings and error-messages.

Once again, don't worry about it. Really. These things are
displayed for those people who know enough about the system to care.
For most of us the X-window system either works or it doesnt. If it
does, life is good. If it doesnt then usually someone will help

[snip general whinge about GUI]

>And the list goes on and on...

Yes, it does....

These are all signs of an immature user environment. At the very
least its a sign that this environment simply doesnt suit -you-.

So...leave it alone. Really. Don't use it. Go back to Windows as
your desktop machine and keep having fun with Linux where it works
best, as a support server.

>It would be so easy solution to take a win out-of-the-box, and
>start doing
>stuff.. spend much less money to few SW that makes it secure, and

'Much less money' - I don't understand this.

Much less I suppose if you pirate all your MS software from a
friend/associate. Have you recently gone and bought a copy of Win98
full retail? With full retail Office 2000 + everything else you
want to keep your desktop happy? Theres no way Linux costs anything
like this much.

>But now when I'm getting closer to really start working with LInux,
>it show
>up not to be what I expected it to be... sad but true. It seems to
>be a toy
>for people that don't need to be productive... ?

Its a tool for people who need reliable, fast back ends for their
networks that don't cost countless thousands of dollars (or tens of
thousands) to buy and support.

I'm in the business and can tell you that the -only- place I've ever
seen Linux on the desktop is in research institutes where they use
lots of free software (like fortran 77) to crunch massive numbers.
Even then, more likely then not, they access these machines from
their Windows desktop PC's using Exceed or something similar.

>Sorry to sound pessimistic, but this is the situation... Linux
>sucks, and
>perhaps I go back to M$ world, because it is so easy to set up and
>when comparing to Linux...

I can tell that this is the voice of frustration talking here. All
I can say is this:

Take a deep breath, make a coffee. Sit down then, with your warm
beverage and think about what you are really trying to achieve with
your PC's and software in general.

If you need to use internet explorer and the myriad proprietry video
formats, your USB devices, Word 2000 (and not a clone) and all this
stuff, well, your choice is clear - get and use a Windows variant.

If you need a fast/reliable/cheap server for backending your Windows
machines, your ADSL connection, your web serving, etc - obtain, run
and have fun with SuSE (or other) linux, but don't get the latest
and greatest, get a known stable version. Use text mode, get to
know it and love it. Stop wasting your time with X-Window and the
currently immature GUI environments.

If you have an interest in watching the Linux GUI systems mature,
then sure, get a spare machine and fiddle around until your fingers
bleed, but when theres work/fun to be done, go back to your Windows
front end and do whats required.

Best of luck,

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