On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 03:50:12PM +0100, C wrote:
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 15:34, Lars Müller <lmuelle@suse.de> wrote:
Apparently you haven't had to field calls from confused beginner users who are wondering what they did wrong after installing an application.
Beginning users I'm not allowing to call YaST at all. They even don't know that the user with the most power is named root.
So, you support them every single time they want to update?
No. I enabled automatic updates. Yes, that works quite well.
and add an application?
They all are getting a default KDE install. If that doesn't offer all they need - what do people need these days more than a web browser? - I file bug reports or feature requests.
Can I give my "users" your phone number? I field support for users in Australia, Canada, USA, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and and and.. (I've got friends scattered all over the place)
If you pay enough then I'm going to do this. Sure. While being a cheap boy in general for such SM fun I'm taking a lot per hour. ;)
They don't know they have root for the most part.. they know that if they want to add an application, they use their user password.
If that works for you. Well, then it works.
Well, if they're root on their box, then it's quite eady to change the default. It's possible from the GUI which you call obscure. Well, your point of view.
You (as in experienced users, not you specifically) are used to and comfortable with the YaST tools for editing system configurations... they are not.. to say "just go change the option" is silly... you don't tell a user to go tweak their Windows Registry any more than you tell these same users to go twiddle the oepnSUSE system configurations. That's a "stay away from there or you might break it" place.
a) The YaST sysconfig editor is less terrible than modifing the registry of Microsoft products. b) They have to do this _one_ time. Call this two commands and be happy. /usr/sbin/sysconf_addword -r /etc/sysconfig/yast2 PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT close /usr/sbin/sysconf_addword /etc/sysconfig/yast2 PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT summary If you consider this approach sucking lame goto the file_a_feature_request section of this thread.
This one issue I see over and over... "why did my software installer disappear?" or... "why do I always have to restart the software installer?"
If that's the case feel free to feed https://features.openSUSE.org/ If non has done this in the past. As I don't care you'll neither get a plus or minus from me.
Best is you branch YaST, change the default and start to smack the YaST devs around. I expect they'll love you. :)
I'm not going to branch YaST... like you.. limited time.
All our time is limited. That's why I consider no longer to watse it on this kind of threads. The outcome is at the end a bit to small compared to the invested time.
This was discusses ad-nasueum when the change was made. The reasons for making the change make sense for experienced users and don't make sense for in-experienced users.... but that fact was railroaded over during the discussion.
Thanks for the pointer to the archive of the discussion! Is this some kind of argument hiding or are you this busy?
One thing that was requested back during the horse flogging was that there be an option added to the software manager... nothing ever came of it because people are understandably busy. So in the end, the default was changed to what makes sense for experienced users....
The current approach makes even sense to the beginner user. They install a package and that's it. There are arguments to both approaches for beginners and advanced users.
and the rest of use are left standing there trying to explain to Joe and Jane User how to navigate the scary sysconfig applet in YaST.
Yeah, I see you standing there one hour each week to explain your users again and again how hard the YaST developers are making it to you. ;) Hey, how about coming to the next openSUSE conference and you and me we smack them all as hard as possible?
I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user... this is one prime example. We made a change to a default that may not have been the best one - depending on who your user is... an experienced developer and long time Linux user, or someone who is making their first steps into Linux... or doesn't know enough to be confident enough to poke the dragon lurking under the surface of their KDE or Gnome (or LXDE ect etc) desktop
Instead of wrinting the reply you could have filed the feature request, branched the YaST code, brewed me a fresh coffe or tea, cleaned your flat or even better mine. But a reply to the list is much more fun. Well, then the YaST software installer stays how it is. Till the pain is big enough to anyone else. Yours look quite small right now. And mine if for this topic not even existing. On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 04:27:35PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
C wrote:
I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user...
+1.
Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window:
Please indicate user experience level
1) beginner 2) experienced 3) professional
Having the information would at least mean module writers could take it into account when choosing defaults and options.
Any additional question while the install contradicts the intention of the initial issue presented as part of this thread. Making is easier to beginners.
Sorry, I don't have any time to write this either. :-(
But you have the time to follow this discussion and reply. Strange. Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany