Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1599 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] Re: Practicalities of IPv6
On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 10:38 +0100, Joachim Schrod wrote:
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 19:53 +0200, Joachim Schrod wrote:
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
2001::/16 - Allocated to RIRs
2002::/16 - Allocated to 6t4
fe80::/10 - Link local, those-MAC-derived addresses, at least for
Ethernet. It uses a mechanism knows as SLAAC to come up with, at least
on Ethernet, theoretically unique address.
fec0::/10 - Site local, like 192.168.x.x, 10.x.x.x, etc...
fc00::/8 - Unique Local, allocation still up in the air last I knew.
But these are like a real network address but not routeable (?).
fd00:/8 - Another kind of Unique Local, even more mysterious than
fc00::/8. But you can get one from SixXS who seem to have appointed
themselves as a registrar. This is what we use internally (one of
these) for now.
I.e., it is too difficult to plan and thus to set up in a small to
medium company environment.
How so?
When you upgrade a service or router, crank up a new site, or replace
some component you just make bringing up IPv6 part of the procedure.
We just added it to our inspection / refresh cycle and in ~2 years we
had IPv6 connectivity across the entire enterprise. We are hardly
all-new-equipment [much of our production equipment is even EOL by the
OEM] but it turns out *everything* except some printers, a couple
DS1/DS3 banks, and a few IPMI interfaces supported IPv6.
I.e., you see this from the viewpoint of an IT professional. Most
IT support personal in small to medium companies wouldn't even know
what IPMI is.

Well, I'm a member of a couple local UGs (LINUX & Python) and know
numerous admins. You are wrong, at least in my experience.

They will never have a DS3 connection to their
company, much less a whole bank of it. This is also very visible
from your other comments; i.e., that all companies that you have
ever visited have Cisco or 3com network gear. You're looking at the
problem from the very high-end of network deployments. (This is a
factual statement, not an evaluation.) With DS1/DS3 banks, you
might even work in a networking company.

Nope, I work for a *very* boring rust-belt industrial services company
of less than 500 employees.

You are aware that this kind of work environment is very special
and highly advanced, aren't you?

No, I'm not, and it certainly isn't.

This is still a technology for big
companies or trivial SOHO deployments.
Why?
1. SOHO IPv6 deployments work out of the box, no need to configure
anything.

Yep.

2. Big companies have a department with IT professionals that can
spend the time to learn about IPv6, its advantages and its
problems, and they might even be good enough to convince their
management to spend money for the transition. As you wrote, IPv6
has actually very interesting features for complex and/or larger
environments. And in companies of this size, there is (hopefully) a
strategic approach towards IT: Here your argument that one runs
IPv6 anyhow by plugging in new systems and one must control such
deployments hits home.

Yep. Although we seem to have differing opinions of what constitutes a
"Big company".

3. Small- to medium-sized companies work under completely different
premises.

I disagree that much of any generalizations can be made about "small to
medium-sized companies". It depends upon the companies approach to
technology: as a strategic asset or cost/nuisance. In lean economic
times this difference is more pronounced [with results, IMHO, ultimately
advantageous to I.T.]

They often have an IT workforce of one or two persons who
do application management, infrastructure management, system
operations, network operations, and end user support.

Yes. ~450 employees, 4 I.T. staff if you count the web developer and
help desk.

These guys
(a) won't have the time to learn about address allocations like the
one cited above, or other basic IPv6 principles.

Seriously? It is their profession - they don't have a choice. Getting
a functional understanding of IPv6 takes about a week.

(And when they
read the recommendation that they should run a daemon for such a
simple thing as a default route, they are even less inclined to
spend the time learning this "overengineered complex new stuff".
After all, they have to keep their gear going.) And (b) the owner
of such companies don't have an IT strategy where they are willing
to spend money for work that does not bring short-term returns.

Ok, and the ash-bin for small companies will be happy to receive them.
If that is their attitude about I.T., in my experience, it is probably
their attitude to most things - they will get scooped up or plowed
under. I've certainly seen that many times.

None of your arguments so far have anything to do with whether having an
IPv6 policy / implementation-plan is a good idea.

Their IT strategy is "I have hired two guys and they shall keep my
staff happy without asking for more money all the time".

Ok. As I said - add IPv6 to your refresh cycle. In 2 years we
essentially spent zero dollars and had IPv6 connectivity to all the
parts of the network that mattered [excepting UPSs and other management
devices]. If you have 2 I.T. guys and 50 employees IPv6 should be easy.

All your arguments in this thread are technical

Yep.

and are concerned with the 2nd use case.

I think you seriously sell the 3rd group short. I'm sorry your
experiences have left you so skeptical. There is no group that *needs*
to be more technologically strategic that your 3rd group.

My argument has nothing to do with technology at all,

No, it doesn't. And you haven't given a single sound reason why not to
have an IPv6 deployment strategy.

and is all about the work dynamics of the 3rd use case.

It is easier, and cheaper, for smaller shops to deploy IPv6 than it is
for larger ones.

--
openSUSE <http://www.opensuse.org/en/>
Linux for human beings who need to get things done.

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