Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1702 mails)
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Re: [opensuse] Reply to G T Smith
- From: G T Smith <grahamsmith@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:03:52 +0100
- Message-id: <4A9D29C8.8070605@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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Constantinos Galilei wrote:
I think this would have major technical difficulties in implementing
(see below)...
This discussion has wandered of into weird and wonderful territory
elsewhere. Something that was not my intent.
The Gnome API and the GTK GUI API are two different but mutually
interdependant things (and unfortunately in many cases you will need to
retain the Gnome configuration tools in order to configure the Gnome
GUI interface, and whether it is possible or easy to do this without
Gnome being installed is not something I know very much about). Good
luck in defining the config *you* need. However, in this case you may
have a flaw in your logic.
The QT version of OpenOffice may be possibly constrained by the SUN Java
SDK/JDK and some particular issues with the QT development tools for
Java. (Someone involved in OpenOffice development may have insight on this).
What complicates matters is with a choice of GUI APIs all with subtle
(and not so subtle) differences in use, writing to all APIs is not
really a practicable solution (possibly outside of Java).
A desktop is just a presentation layer, and as such should ideally
accommodate application interface designs that are non-standard to that
desktop. The problem is that for the naive user the resultant unholy
mess with configuration can be very confusing (as it can be for the not
so naive for that matter). It would be nice to have a tool to handle
this issue (and I am not aware that one exists) which is a reason for at
least the KDE and GNOME communities to be aware and care, but as the
GNOME and KDE diplomatic relationship seems to be at best cool I do not
see this happening soon, if at all. Adding execution images of some sort
would be horribly difficult in this situation, unless one could persuade
all developers to configure or add the appropriate support.
KDE 3.x is a bit more than purely a desktop, it is also has integrated
components that give productivity and collaboration abilities with a bit
more functionality than MS Works in some ways but not as much as either
OpenOffice (or MS Office) in others. It in some ways it could be argued
KDE3.x violates the *NIX KISS principle that you have a lot of small
things which do simple tightly defined stuff well. (I am under the
impression that KDE 4.x ignores that principle and is built on complex
ways of making simple things seem simpler, which is a worthy objective I
suppose, but the results are causing some dissension in the ranks).
Gnome AFAIK is more of a pure desktop.
Having briefly looked at both the QT and GTK APIs I came to the general
conclusion that for my usages GTK had a simplicity and flexibility that
QT lacked (I hate coding GUI interfaces, and GTK plus Glade seem a
little less painless than QT plus the QT tools).
s
Forever is a very big word. I think any developer(s) contemplating a
port from anything to QT will be doing a rethink, QT on Linux may be
heading into the same anomalous zone as ReiserFS. KDE may need to either
port to something else or take a lead role in the open source QT fork,
at least for QA purposes, if they have not already. Especially if Nokia
finally decide to just do a technology asset strip of Trolltech, (which
effectively is what happened with Symbian/PSION).
Nokia with the N900 series of device seem to have dropped Maemo Linux in
favour of Windows 7. Symbian has also been open sourced (I have not
looked at what exactly is involved), but as the various Symbian SDKs
have always been freely available I am not sure this is really a big
change. However, the development tools (phone simulators and the like)
are exclusively windows based. If Nokia make the QT tools available in a
similar manner it seems possible that non-Linux versions are more likely
to be promoted. (It should not be forgotten Nokia outside of North
America are still dominant in their primary market, so I doubt they
would regard the FOSS/Linux lobby as something to worry about at this
time).
- --
==============================================================================
I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone.
My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.
Bjarne Stroustrup
==============================================================================
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Constantinos Galilei wrote:
On Tuesday August 25 2009 5:27:08 am G T Smith wrote:
On a more pertinent note, one also needs to consider those who voted
with their feet...
Do they? You mentioned the importance of choice. Why should KDE people care
about what non-KDE users think of KDE? Believe it or not, there are those
who
leave other desktops for KDE, as well. If you find that uncomfortable, go
ahead and disbelieve it, but ask yourself if Gnome people should care what
non-Gnome users think.
There are still features I miss from OS/2's Workplace Shell, but I wouldn't
go
back to it. I actually made a feature request on this a long time ago, but
I'm guessing it didn't interest too many people. I'd still like to see KDE
eventually have work folders that act like mini-sessions that you could
create
by saving the current running programs as a folder and launch them by
clicking
the folder later, though.
I think this would have major technical difficulties in implementing
(see below)...
The only thing I used on a regular basis that was QT based was konqueror
as a file browser. (I am not impressed by dolphin). This was largely
mitigated by mc and the discovery that Nautilus no longer did crazy
things on my setups. The few other KDE things I use on occasional basis
had GTK or X based alternative. KDE AFAIK is the only QT based desktop,
and there are rather a lot of non-QT based desktops. So I realised that
it it did not make much sense for me install KDE or the QT libraries or
invest time in setting up KDE4 (YMMV).
You've actually inspired me to uninstall Gnome. The only GTK apps I use are
Firefox, Openoffice (of which I will be using the QT version if that's ever
finished) and GIMP, and with the exception of GIMP, these thankfully don't
*look* like GTK apps. I've had Gnome on my machine forever and it's kind of
a
waste of drive space.
This discussion has wandered of into weird and wonderful territory
elsewhere. Something that was not my intent.
The Gnome API and the GTK GUI API are two different but mutually
interdependant things (and unfortunately in many cases you will need to
retain the Gnome configuration tools in order to configure the Gnome
GUI interface, and whether it is possible or easy to do this without
Gnome being installed is not something I know very much about). Good
luck in defining the config *you* need. However, in this case you may
have a flaw in your logic.
The QT version of OpenOffice may be possibly constrained by the SUN Java
SDK/JDK and some particular issues with the QT development tools for
Java. (Someone involved in OpenOffice development may have insight on this).
What complicates matters is with a choice of GUI APIs all with subtle
(and not so subtle) differences in use, writing to all APIs is not
really a practicable solution (possibly outside of Java).
A desktop is just a presentation layer, and as such should ideally
accommodate application interface designs that are non-standard to that
desktop. The problem is that for the naive user the resultant unholy
mess with configuration can be very confusing (as it can be for the not
so naive for that matter). It would be nice to have a tool to handle
this issue (and I am not aware that one exists) which is a reason for at
least the KDE and GNOME communities to be aware and care, but as the
GNOME and KDE diplomatic relationship seems to be at best cool I do not
see this happening soon, if at all. Adding execution images of some sort
would be horribly difficult in this situation, unless one could persuade
all developers to configure or add the appropriate support.
KDE 3.x is a bit more than purely a desktop, it is also has integrated
components that give productivity and collaboration abilities with a bit
more functionality than MS Works in some ways but not as much as either
OpenOffice (or MS Office) in others. It in some ways it could be argued
KDE3.x violates the *NIX KISS principle that you have a lot of small
things which do simple tightly defined stuff well. (I am under the
impression that KDE 4.x ignores that principle and is built on complex
ways of making simple things seem simpler, which is a worthy objective I
suppose, but the results are causing some dissension in the ranks).
Gnome AFAIK is more of a pure desktop.
Having briefly looked at both the QT and GTK APIs I came to the general
conclusion that for my usages GTK had a simplicity and flexibility that
QT lacked (I hate coding GUI interfaces, and GTK plus Glade seem a
little less painless than QT plus the QT tools).
s
PS There is now a further factor to consider. When Nokia acquired
Trolltech hence QT, it was not to get a foothold in the PC based Open
Source market place (it was more likely part of a strategic response to
the potential threat posed by android, and the need to update the
Symbian OS GUI). Nokia are largely indifferent to Open Source based
development and its community, (and can afford to be as Open Source
based development in of handset applications is marginal). In some ways
Nokia can make M$ seem positively cuddly...., and Nokias relative
silence about the future of QT outside of their core market is probably
more of a cause of concern than if they had said anything.
This point is more or less moot. The open source community has a fork of QT
that will be available forever. I actually hope that Nokia changes the
policy
on the commercial QT, but it's actually not in their interests as a separate
QT would be major competition and developers would be able to write
commercial
applications using the free QT without paying a fee to Nokia/Trolltech.
Keeping a unified QT means that free and commercial QT applications remain
compatible and the commercial version remains relevant. Nokia's kind of
stuck
on this one.
Forever is a very big word. I think any developer(s) contemplating a
port from anything to QT will be doing a rethink, QT on Linux may be
heading into the same anomalous zone as ReiserFS. KDE may need to either
port to something else or take a lead role in the open source QT fork,
at least for QA purposes, if they have not already. Especially if Nokia
finally decide to just do a technology asset strip of Trolltech, (which
effectively is what happened with Symbian/PSION).
Nokia with the N900 series of device seem to have dropped Maemo Linux in
favour of Windows 7. Symbian has also been open sourced (I have not
looked at what exactly is involved), but as the various Symbian SDKs
have always been freely available I am not sure this is really a big
change. However, the development tools (phone simulators and the like)
are exclusively windows based. If Nokia make the QT tools available in a
similar manner it seems possible that non-Linux versions are more likely
to be promoted. (It should not be forgotten Nokia outside of North
America are still dominant in their primary market, so I doubt they
would regard the FOSS/Linux lobby as something to worry about at this
time).
- --
==============================================================================
I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone.
My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.
Bjarne Stroustrup
==============================================================================
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAkqdKcgACgkQasN0sSnLmgLkVgCfetmHCtFocQ8KS1EnPZRfAAtV
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=/RcW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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