Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1695 mails)

[Adam Tauno WIlliams <awilliam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Wed, 2009-07-15 at 11:00 -0400, Dan Goodman wrote:
> Point 1. This is why Beagle (or Nepomuk, or any "breakthrough" new
> technology should NOT be automatically turned on at install. However, it
> should probably install and be easy to toggle on (or back off, if it is
> found not to work for a user). If beagle was truly totally transparent,
> that would be different. But it is not -- it uses resources at times
> that conflict with the user's needs in some cases.

Not enabling new features results in a horrible user experience;  note
that neither Apple or Microsoft adopt this approach.    New features
should absolutely be enabled - otherwise the interloper thinks your
product is backward crap, it is completely unreasonable to make users
run around turning things on.

And Beagle, at least, is hardly a "breakthrough" feature as it has been
around for something like five years and many releases.

> If you want to put 11.x on a NEC Multispeed laptop with dual 720K
> floppies as its only persistent storage (OK, an exaggeration, but if you
> want to put it on a fairly old, barebones system...) then you should be
> willing to remove packages you don't need. Once you are in "the long
> tail" you should expect to have to do a few things special to get into
> the game.

Ditto.  I'm an advocate of the rule "older than 5 years = onus on you".

> But why not offer an install config document, plus the kind of package
> selection that is available for SLES, so that the issue of installing

Thew is a Wiki; all someone has to do is go create it!  I don't believe
there would be a single objection to a trimming-your-openSUSE page.

> Point 2. No new technology (that is not truly transparent to the end
> user) should ever install itself in a way that it is automatically
> turned on.

Disagree;  this equals terrible-usability-experience.

>  The burden should not be on the user to discover and decide
> what to do about that new technology. 

Most users don't use machines that way;  they use what is presented and
readily available.  Use this approach and they will promptly install a
distro that turns all the stuff on.   Making life difficult for the
normal user (hardware < 5 years old) for the sake of the guy with
dual-720k-floppy drives makes no sense.

> Point 3. Re: supposed beagle slowness. I can confirm that it was slow on
> a Thinkpad T61 at 10.3 even after initial indexing was done. However, as
> someone else pointed out, the issue is now reduced to severe slowness
> only when doing initial indexing, especially if certain excludes are
> configured. BUT, those excludes, if they improve the average user's
> experience, should be automatically set at install time, at least as an
> clearly defined option.

I believe in either 10.3 or 11.0 (at least) it was mentioned right in
the installer release notes how to disable it.  They pop-up in your face
when installing.

> Had beagle (and the hotly debated KDE4) been introduced on a buy-in
> basis, instead of being pushed out to meet the needs and/or desires of
> the developers, they might not have achieved as much acceptance as
> quickly as they have. But on the other hand, there would be a lot less
> frustrated users, and probably more people who gave them a real try on
> their schedule.

There are some frustrated users, I've seen no evidence there are legions
of them.   I'm no frustrated and clearly other people who have replied
to this thread are not frustrated either.  I do not believe the majority
of openSUSE users are frustrated.

> The user should have the first, last, and all final says in what runs on
> their machine, and why. Period, no exceptions. 

They already do.

> And please, don't throw out bug fixes as a counter-example. I am talking
> about packages only, and then only those that introduce new techniques
> at the expense of configuration and resource demands. They are what I am
> talking about when I say that they should be installable (as an option,
> preferably), but should NEVER be turned on automatically just because
> they are installed.

Again, installing without enabling results in a horrible [desktop]
usability experience.  "I installed it, now why isn't it working?"

> Right now, Suse is my distro of choice, both because of personal
> preference and professional needs. But if it, or any distro, got to
> where it was dictating to me what my desktop "should" look like, or how
> my data is organized, I would drop it like a hot rock and find a distro
> that treats new things as options to be chosen by the user,

There is always Gentoo!  For those who *LOVE* a truly horrible user
experience.

> Beagle is a solution to a problem for SOME, not ALL. That is why it
> should not be turned on automatically. 

X is a solution to a problem for some, not all.  Thus it should not be
enabled by default.  Same with Avahi, Hot Plug, ACPI/APM, the
screensaver, and DHCP.  Why should I have to be bothered to disable the
screensaver? 

> Sustainable progress cannot be obtained at the expense of costing users
> time and effort that they have not signed up for. People contribute in
> various ways to open source based on "enlightened altruism", not
> unbridled, totally self-less altruism.

Nope, "Sustainable progress" is created by offer a fantastic
state-of-the-art feature-on-par-with-OS/X-and-Vista desktop.  Which
thankfully openSUSE does RIGHT NOW!   It is an awesome distro.

> As a dev, you may be smarter than the average user. But the only way you
> are going to win a base of users is to educate and convince them, not by
> corralling them and then hoping that they stick around once you have
> them running your package.

Devs, you've won me by providing a solid and current product.  Keep up
the great work.

> I really don't want to leave this distro, 

I see no reason to leave and very much intend on staying.  

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