Dotan Cohen wrote:
I *want* to believe, but still, almost a year after it was rolled out in 11.1, KDE4 continues to struggle with base functionality, while continuing to improve its appearance.
I would appreciate if you would start a new thread and CC me with the KDE4 issues that you have. I file many bugs on KDE4 and I can help you file the bugs and feature requests that you need. If you want to keep if off list, then you can email me privately. Thanks!
When people start raving about how almost all their base functionality works well, and some of it works better because of KDE4, I will invest the time and effort to try it again. (I had originally installed 11.1 with KDE4).
Okular and Dolphin are far better than KPDF and Konqueror in KDE3 for _most_users. I never thought that I'd be saying that!
So please, by all means, someone, any one, please explain to me in terms I can understand, what KDE4 will do for me that makes my day on Linux go better.
Without knowing your workflow, that is impossible. But I can help address the prblems that you've had.
And until that time, I suspect that there will be a lot of resistance to making the shift, at least as much resistance as there is acceptance by those who want to have the newest first. Newer and cooler isn't automatically better, even if it is better for some subset of those who try it.
Agreed 100%. KDE 4.2 does however work for most end users, in contract to KDE 4.0 and 4.1
Dotan, Thank you for your response, and your offer of assistance. The combination of that, plus the fact that people here whose opinions and evaluations I respect are starting to come around, may be enough to induce me to try KDE4 after all. As to documenting the issues I have had, I confess I didn't keep a careful log of them, but many of them had to do with problems related to trying to toggle between KDE3, KDE4 and Gnome when I first upgraded from 10.3 to 11.1. And in the end, they led to lots of YaST issues similar to what (I think it was) David Rankin reported recently. I finally gave up and did a clean install of 11.1, with Gnome, Compiz and Emerald window decorations (really like the shade option! Just wish it would show on the wall when I look at all the viewports simultaneously, but that is a minor annoyance at most.) But since you have offered to help me close the loop by assisting me with bug reports, etc., I will seriously consider retrying KDE4. And if it leads to enough bug reports and you are willing to assist me a bit further, I will begin filling out my own reports once I become familiar with the process. Because I really would like to be familiar with KDE4 for support purposes in my work, whether I end up personally switching back to it or not. And when and if I have learned enough to be able to contribute, I am willing and motivated to try to make contributions beyond the "what I want and don't want" type, which I realize is about all I have contributed so far. In particular, I am thinking about trying to get more involved in the Linux documentation project, tldp.org. (Yes, JDD, I will probably be contacting you in the near future, as I see you have been very active in that project. And as all of you can see, if nothing else, I can quickly contribute a lot of words -- :-) In the meantime I have been familiarizing myself with that project. Perhaps that might be a place to consolidate information about KDE4. Anyone here have any thoughts on the idea of having KDE4 docs in DocBook/TLDP? Is TLDP still a preferred source for cross-distro documentation?) But before I try KDE again, I need to decide for myself if I dare try to combine KDE4 and Gnome on the same install/upgrade, or if I should begin by installing just KDE4 and hoping. Or perhaps even reinstalling KDE4.x into 11.1? I am also taking some steps to end up having more than one laptop I can work with, which will make me less reluctant to "tread near the edge". Once again, thanks for your offer of assistance, Dotan. When I have a bit of time to sit back and think, I will write you directly to try to summarize any past experiences I had, and to try to understand how or if certain configurations can be achieved in KDE4. Perhaps this will help you to understand what I want to be able to do, as you have asked, and you might be able to clear up some of the issues that I currently have with KDE4. But as a quick summary, and in no particular order, I would like to be able to run Compiz with a 2x4 matrix of viewports, would like to be able to position the panel on any edge, especially as an auto-hiding bottom panel. And I would like to be able to easily place icons on the desktop(s), and to see minimized windows as icons/emblems on the panel (only for the viewport I am using at that moment). And I'd like to be able to retain or easily reconfigure things like my splash screen, background, etc. to remain the same until such time as I want to deal with a different appearance. And I would like to have more control over restructuring menus via mouse-controlled drag and drop, perhaps into multiple cascading layers, although I have heard that the Evil Empire of Redmond claims to have a patent on this. (Yes, I realize the irony of this, given my general "anti-eye-candy first" stance with respect to KDE4, but this is a wishlist, and that is one of my wishes. But in short, I want to be able to make it look and feel a lot like what I am accustomed to from previously working with Win and OS/2 desktops, in order to make certain common actions behave for me just as they have in the past. I'm not saying 100% compatible, but I don't want someone else making it difficult for me to place icons on the desktop, for example, because someone else thinks that clutters up the user interface and prevents the user from finding and using other new alternatives. And I have seen and read just such statements as justification for pushing out KDE4 early, and for dropping KDE3 support almost immediately.) I need package dependency issues to be minimal, and support for such things as the weather applet, PDA support, easy setup of default system-wide choices for things like PDF reader, browser, email client, etc. Lastly, adverse interactions between programs must be minimal, and key system functions such as YaST must not ever get hosed up by the desktop manager. As I write this, and think about my experiences with desktop managers in openSUSE, I am coming around to the point of view that when and if I become convinced that this will be possible with KDE4, I very likely will try it again. And that includes trying out the new features, as long as I can migrate to them as I become familiar and comfortable with them. As I had said before, I am willing to consider using the desktop (in general, and in KDE in particular) in a new way that the developers believe is better, but if and only if, the transition can be on my schedule, and I can begin from a familiar point of reference. But I am beginning to believe that KDE4 might make that possible in the not too distant future. If it can, I will cease from criticizing the way KDE4 is, and begin advocating *for* it, if it turns out to be at least as good as what I have today. But for me, the jury is still out, although responses like yours, Dotan, and David's and other KDE critics' posts that things are getting better, make me willing to reconsider. I suspect that my attitude and response is similar to what many more people will report once 11.2 comes out with KDE4 as its default or recommended interface. In short, I no longer think that KDE4 in 11.2 will become the kind of issue that it has been in these, its early days. Once again, thanks to you, Dotan, and to the other list members here who have been specific in their criticism, requests, and experience reports with KDE4. In point of fact, KDE4 was the principal reason I began participating in this list, as I figured it would be the best place to get honest leading edge reports on what reality is, with respect to KDE. And I have not been disappointed. I only hope that as I become more deeply involved in how openSUSE works, that I will be able to contribute in turn. And I am committed to staying with openSUSE as my primary distro, as I like both it, and the process by which it evolves. And I especially believe that the openSUSE community is one of the best, perhaps the best, of all distro communities. So once again, thanks to you, Dotan, and to all the active participants on this list. (To the sound of music: "My name is, my name is...") Dan "not the Stan" Goodman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org