houghi wrote:
On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 12:11:14PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:
I disagree. People who have a login at Novell/openSUSE should get an email adress as an extra. Sure, @users.opensuse.org as Adrian suggested.
I disagree. That is just ugly.
At this moment there is nobody, except suse.de, who can speak for openSUSE.org
Sorry but that's exactly the "I'm sitting here and waiting for things to happen" attitude I was referring to.
I think I can speak for opensuse.org because I'm an active part of that community. So can any other active committer.
Stop considering us non-Novell employees as minor elements of the community.
I am not. I am also an active part of the community, as is everybody else who uses SUSE. Who decides if there comes a forum and when? As I see it we can expess our wishes, yet it is Novell that decides in the end wether or not things happening.
I couldn't disagree more. While using SUSE Linux somehow makes you part of the community at large, that's not the part of the community I'm talking about. That means you're using it and it doesn't imply that you are spending some of your free time to make things better for the others who use it. Sorry but it _does_ make a difference. People should be rewarded for their efforts. It's not about pushing down people who don't, it's about pushing up people who do, that's a subtle but very important difference. "It is Novell that decides in the end whether or not things happen" It's the current situation because some people seem to be fine with that and because tons of on- and off-topic mails are flowing on the list but we aren't able to take decisions in the end. I'm afraid the web forum topic is very characteristic. We don't want that situation (well, at least, I don't) and Novell doesn't want it either, it isn't a benefit to anyone. If that's the idea, then we can stop the whole opensuse.org thing right now. The goal is to go beyond that as fast as possible so that we can directly contribute to the project: documentation, translations, testing, packaging, helping out and moderating on IRC, forums and mailinglists, developing YaST2 modules, submit source code patches, create artwork, etc etc... Some of that is already possible, most is still quite cumbersome, and a smaller part isn't possible just yet. The benefit is for both sides: 1) we non-Novell employees can contribute directly and influence our ecosystem and our distribution (wrt packaging once the build service is mainstream for building SUSE Linux) 2) Novell gets a lot of manpower and skilled people to contribute to their business, indirectly, by spreading the user base Really, one goal should be to take away as much work as possible from the openSUSE staff at Novell. They're not keeping their hands on it because they don't want to give control away, but because we haven't been able yet to produce a community structure where it is possible. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to give away some or most of the many tasks and responsibilities they have to take care of now/ As I wrote in an earlier mail, it's a benevolent dictatorship, but we can nevertheless be in control side-by-side with Novell, together, on most aspects, as equally leveled partners.
I don't think that is a bad thing. It just needs some improvemenet.
No, it has to change completely. This is an interim situation, this is not what we should aim for.
I'm afraid you don't get the point. It's not just an email address for convenience like gmail.
I DO get the point. It IS just an email adress. That was my reason of asking a while ago in the first place. To have it as a forwarding emailadress when you subscribe to either openSUSE or to bugzilla.
Could be one use for it, but that's really minor compared to the "I'm part of the community" aspect.
It would be very sad if only some selected few would be able to get one.
"selected" yes, but "few".. not necessarily. What's sad about that ? It's how it works. You really want to tell me Linus Torvalds shouldn't be regarded as more respected, committed, deserving as a Linux newbie who installed SUSE Linux 2 days ago ? (granted, those are extremes ;)) Is that a reason to dismiss or consider that Linux newbie as an inferior human being, as you seem to imply into what I wrote ? Of course not. Couldn't that newbie one day contribute a lot to the community and be respected and deserving as well ? Obviously, yes. (well, as much as Linus would be pretty tough ;D) I'm not sure you have a realistic vision of how OpenSource communities (or communities in general) work. But to make this very clear: it's not because someone spends a lot of time and energy e.g. making packages or writing documentation for thousands of SUSE Linux users that I would [or anyone else should] consider him a better human being or superior to anyone else. It's just that he is more committed to the community than others, and that he's spending a larger part of his life, his free time and his passion for the good of the whole community (including the many many SUSE Linux users who benefit from that). In a community like ours or as with any OpenSource project or distribution I know of, he deserves more respect for his work and contribution (not that others don't), his voice should have more weight... and he should get an opensuse.org email ;D
You want to have people join openSUSE community. Giving them an emailadress is then a thank you for doing so.
Right, @users.opensuse.org Personally, and that's really only my very own opinion, I don't really care much about someone installing SUSE Linux on his PC but who doesn't care about getting involved in it and who never will. Nice for him he gets a stable, polished distribution as well as a friendly, helpful and qualified community. But should I really care about it ? Not much. Sure, I guess the larger the user base, the better for all of us, but there's not much beyond that. The people I care about are those who take part into "doing" the community, helping out, contributing to the mutualized effort. I don't see anything wrong in that. Does it mean I don't respect the end-user who's not involved into the effort ? Of course not. Does it mean I won't spend my free time to also make his "computing experience" easier and nicer ? Neither. Frankly, if I would, I don't think there would be some 7 GB repository of RPM files at http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
Otherwise people will think that they are still not a real opensuse member, because they don't get the address.
IMO that address is not a gift for doing nothing, it's something that has to be "deserved", kindof. You become "a real opensuse member" when you participate, there are many ways to do so, and a lot of people do. Really, what's wrong or "ugly" with that ? Does it sound like apartheid ? ;) BTW, do I sound arrogant or harsh to you ? Well, I'm trying to push things forward and at some point it involves making statements and/or speaking on behalf of others, either to be agreed upon or to trigger reactions, discussions, decisions and actions (in that order ;D). cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> __v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels