Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (3729 mails)
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Re: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)
- From: James Mohr <suse_mailing_list@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:01:57 +0200
- Message-id: <200306021801.57945.suse_mailing_list@xxxxxxxxx>
On Monday 02 June 2003 12:15, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:
> * Sun, 01 Jun 2003, jsowden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
<snip>
>
> > I am a newbie at this, and one of my complaints has been the use of the
> > 'nix language to explain something. Consider giving your text, section
> > by section, to someone who has never used Linux. Have them read your
> > text, then explain to you how to perform the task described. There are
> > technical nouns used in explaining that are used a verbs, leaving the
> > newbie lost.
>
> It's not only Unix/Linux, every specialization has it's own dictionary
> of wtf-s and [e]tla-s. Newbies just have to get used to it, and use the
> available help to get into the 'scene'.
> You can't expect a 30 year old specialization to change its habbits
> because newbies feel lost (a medicine course doesn't change the Latin
> words into english for new med students either).
I have to disagree with you a little on this one. For example, it is common to
say things "cat the file", which for a newbie is very confusing because they
are not aware of the fact cat is a command and that the expression means to
"display the contents of the file using 'cat' command". Yes, if we choose we
can continue to speak in terms that the average use does not understand, thus
loosing many to Windows where you don't need that special vocabulary.
Also I think your example of a "medicine course" in appropriate. If I were a
first year medical student, then I would not expect the professors to change
the vocabular. However, the better comparison would be a freshmen biology
course. Yes, in such cases, the vocabular **is** changed in order to ensure
that it is at the level of most of the students.
> > There are also other suttleties (sp?) in linux. If you change a config
> > file,
>
> $ echo suttleties | ispell
> @(#) International Ispell Version 3.2.06 08/01/01
> word: how about: subtleties
>
> > often you must execute a command to put the new config data into play.
> > This needs to be explained.
>
> These are admin tasks, not Joe Luser's
Sorry, but if I were a newbie, or a simple user of Linux I would be insulted
by that comment. It is extemely demeaning to refer to someone as a "looser"
simple because they are "only" a user. It is the apparent elitist attitude
that many seem to have that turns a lot of people away from Linux. I feel
that such terms and your overall attitude are very condescending.
Second, Linux expects the user to be much more of an administrator than
Windows. Therefore, knowing that simply changing a configure file is not
sufficient is something that a newbie should be told. How else are they going
to know.
> > Finally, as we all know, this operating system has more documentation
> > than any other to date (afaik). Lots of doc does not mean that a newbie
> > can understand it.
>
> Most of which is written as reference, not as tutorial. A man-page of
> bash does NOT teach anyone how to use bash, just where to find some
> (hidden) option to change bash's behaviour.
Hmmmmm. Obviously you are not refering to the HOWTOs. They are intended to
explain HOWTO do something and thus are tutorial in nature and not just
reference. Although I would agree that the man-pages are references, "most"
of the documentation I am aware of it tutorial in nature and not just for
reference. So much stems from the time when there wasn't any documentation on
how to do things so people wrote *tutorials* telling you how.
Besides it does not change John's comment that a large amount of documentation
does not necessarily mean a newbie can understand it. Therefore, I fail to
see the value of your comment.
Regards,
jimmo
--
---------------------------------------
"Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your
character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others
think you are." -- John Wooden
---------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info
---------------------------------------
NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing
lists or forums are subject to reposting.
> * Sun, 01 Jun 2003, jsowden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
<snip>
>
> > I am a newbie at this, and one of my complaints has been the use of the
> > 'nix language to explain something. Consider giving your text, section
> > by section, to someone who has never used Linux. Have them read your
> > text, then explain to you how to perform the task described. There are
> > technical nouns used in explaining that are used a verbs, leaving the
> > newbie lost.
>
> It's not only Unix/Linux, every specialization has it's own dictionary
> of wtf-s and [e]tla-s. Newbies just have to get used to it, and use the
> available help to get into the 'scene'.
> You can't expect a 30 year old specialization to change its habbits
> because newbies feel lost (a medicine course doesn't change the Latin
> words into english for new med students either).
I have to disagree with you a little on this one. For example, it is common to
say things "cat the file", which for a newbie is very confusing because they
are not aware of the fact cat is a command and that the expression means to
"display the contents of the file using 'cat' command". Yes, if we choose we
can continue to speak in terms that the average use does not understand, thus
loosing many to Windows where you don't need that special vocabulary.
Also I think your example of a "medicine course" in appropriate. If I were a
first year medical student, then I would not expect the professors to change
the vocabular. However, the better comparison would be a freshmen biology
course. Yes, in such cases, the vocabular **is** changed in order to ensure
that it is at the level of most of the students.
> > There are also other suttleties (sp?) in linux. If you change a config
> > file,
>
> $ echo suttleties | ispell
> @(#) International Ispell Version 3.2.06 08/01/01
> word: how about: subtleties
>
> > often you must execute a command to put the new config data into play.
> > This needs to be explained.
>
> These are admin tasks, not Joe Luser's
Sorry, but if I were a newbie, or a simple user of Linux I would be insulted
by that comment. It is extemely demeaning to refer to someone as a "looser"
simple because they are "only" a user. It is the apparent elitist attitude
that many seem to have that turns a lot of people away from Linux. I feel
that such terms and your overall attitude are very condescending.
Second, Linux expects the user to be much more of an administrator than
Windows. Therefore, knowing that simply changing a configure file is not
sufficient is something that a newbie should be told. How else are they going
to know.
> > Finally, as we all know, this operating system has more documentation
> > than any other to date (afaik). Lots of doc does not mean that a newbie
> > can understand it.
>
> Most of which is written as reference, not as tutorial. A man-page of
> bash does NOT teach anyone how to use bash, just where to find some
> (hidden) option to change bash's behaviour.
Hmmmmm. Obviously you are not refering to the HOWTOs. They are intended to
explain HOWTO do something and thus are tutorial in nature and not just
reference. Although I would agree that the man-pages are references, "most"
of the documentation I am aware of it tutorial in nature and not just for
reference. So much stems from the time when there wasn't any documentation on
how to do things so people wrote *tutorials* telling you how.
Besides it does not change John's comment that a large amount of documentation
does not necessarily mean a newbie can understand it. Therefore, I fail to
see the value of your comment.
Regards,
jimmo
--
---------------------------------------
"Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your
character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others
think you are." -- John Wooden
---------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info
---------------------------------------
NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing
lists or forums are subject to reposting.
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