On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Kevin just had to get this off his chest:
On Sunday 13 October 2002 18:46, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:
Carlos and Theo went just a teensy bit overboard, saying things like:
It is now time to take a stand. Top-posting, that is, posting ones reply above the quoted text, is a symbol of darkness. It represents evil.
and like:
Is it really that hard to do? Delete text to a piece of quoted text where you want to reply to, type your response, delete text down to the next piece of text you want to reply to etc. Ignoring the relevant RFC1855 in mailing lists and usenet posts is just plain rude and totally disrespectful of the people the you might want to get help from. For me it is very simple: topposter and bulkquoters will be ignored, period.
Allow me to state an additional fact or three, and then to derive the inescapable conclusion from your posts:
The people who top-post -- and I'm one of them, unless I remember to switch styles for the Linux audience (ok, for SOME of the Linux audience) -- DO tend to be Windows users. But, you COULD ask yourself why that is so.
I know why, it's bad habit someone in Redmond started, and because Windows users try to copy everything their neighbour has and does, it quickly took over the world, just like the virusses their broken software propaGates. Look up above what this great piece of MS software made of my quote when it was finished with it. Isn't it wonderfull that it can't even add a '>' when it reformats the lines? And what about this: begin foutlook.exe ho ho ho Yep, they really know their way around email and such..
Somebody already pointed the way by saying that they tend to be BUSINESS users. It's a simple fact of life that most of the mature computer users in the world tend to be business users. Most of
The Dilbert comic strip is *not* something that came out of the blue sky, sadly lots of managers /are/ really ignorant of how and why things work. That fact that they still manage to move a mouse and click on an attachement is not a great accomplishment. [..]
Now ask yourself why Windoze mailreaders tend to favor top-posting (or TOFU, as the Germans like to call it). Before you answer that, consider that Bill Gates made billions by catering to what people want, and how they like to do things,
Yeah, spend countless millions of dollars on broken software, firstaid- and repairkits.
especially in business. In olden days, before e-mail, I would often receive inter-office folders containing memo packages. The most recent memo was always on top, with the rest stapled/clipped together in reverse order, with the earliest one at the back of the stack.
Wonderfull example, but a stack of memo's is /not/ a usenet/mailinglist discussion is it?
They did it that way because it worked. Most people wanted only the summary or the most recent arguments or decisions on top. If they needed to refresh their memories, they could dig down in the stack.
And if a new junior comes in and needs to be made up to date? Should he/she start reading on top or at the bottom?
This arrangement got duplicated when office e-mail came along. Sometimes, people respond to a multi-point e-mail by "My comments are embedded, below". Otherwise, they add their two-cents worth at the top, so that busy executives and managers can see the latest at a glance.
An office email that is sent and replied once is completely different from a discussion like were're having here. Please, tell me how on earth I should place all my comments on top of yours and keep the context intact?
Therefore, MS Outlook and other Windows mail readers tend to default to that model of message trail handling. Let me say that another way: most of the business mail users in the world a) have learned that method b) prefer that method.
Most email users (or people for that matter) have no opinion or preference of their own, they're just copying what they see and think "that how I should do it too, or people think I don't know how to email"
Notice that I didn't say it is somehow mystically right. I just said it's the learned and preferred method of the vast majority of users BECAUSE they happen to be in business. Even the legions
You seem to think that business people have a special gift for "the right way" that ordinary people don't have. Let me tell you that business people are usually the most narrow-minded people you can imagine, with no interest in culture, history or other opinions (IMHO of course).
of students and academics don't keep to the "right and righteous" method, once they finally cut the umbilical, stop sucking at the teat, and go get real jobs.
And for a "real job' you need to do everything exactly as the other business people of course, have the same 50 line legal statement in your sig, have the same green pasture desktop, with the same flying windows screensaver.
Now, we come to the analysis part. Unless you have spent your entire computer- using life, sheltered in academia, then you were already aware of the preponderance of Windows in the business/commerce world, and that top-posting is the way it's done.
I still like to make up my own mind about how things should be done, if you that's ok with you.
So, based on that, what you are saying -- by badmouthing Windows users in general -- is
Were exactlty was I badmouthing Windows users?
that you prefer to keep Linux in the minority ghetto. You don't WANT it to make its way onto the desktops of the business drones of the world. That would destroy its cachet of "specialness" or whatever.
I don't believe for a minute that 'we' need to copy-cat everything MS does to get ahead on the desktop market. The normal, accepted way of quoting is still very much alive on at least the lists and groups that I see.
If Windows users actually began using Linux in real life, you'd have to move on to BSD or something. Let's call them names and make them feel like the unwanted scum they are, instead.
I don't need to call Windows users names, I do pity most of them for getting themselfs in the trap they're in though.
That said, I agree completely that in a simple discussion (as opposed to a business, decision- making e-mail trail), it is bad manners to reply without editing/trimming.
I got such an email today, with dozens of replies, all on top of another. I couldn't make heads or tails of it (literally). You should try it: save this email in a file and then read it with 'tac'.
Comments? Rebuttals?
You'll have to start reading on top I'm afraid.. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 8 24N , 4 32 40E. SuSE 8.0 x86 Kernel 2.4.16-4GB See headers for PGP/GPG info.